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Author Topic: 1978 2000 with dizzy driven from the Exhaust Camshaft  (Read 358 times)
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JASPER_40
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« on: June 11, 2021, 04:58:43 AM »

Hi Eveyone,

About to take the plunge and re-capture my youth by purchasing a 1978 828BC1 (2000) but I just cant establish conclusively why the distributor is driven off the Exhaust cam at the back of the engine instead its ususal place on the aux shaft at the front right by the alternator.

Initially though it was a replacement 1800 lump and the deal was off but Googling late into the night I reached the conclusion that I just couldnt explain it and it may be a correct 2000 engine config....deal back on.

The car is supposedly a RHD 1978 2000 coupe, probably from South Africa (i know it is a personal import from somewhere). The car has no power steering but has been factory fitted with Aircon.

It it a difficult one to figure out for me as a 1978 car would usually be the S1 with the funky interior but this one has a S2 interior and the fixtures on the scuttle in the engine bay also tells me it is an S2. It is just that the dizzy location suggests and old engine or an 1800 and therefore not original.

Any thoughts ?


Cheers

Steve

PS There was a 1600 S1 197* Coupe featured in Practical Classics just recently which also had the Dizzy running on the exhaust cam. This car was imported from Australia


* 2000 BC.jpg (105.66 KB, 413x738 - viewed 81 times.)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 05:09:21 AM by JASPER_40 » Logged
WestonE
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2021, 07:39:54 AM »

The IE and VX cars here run exhaust cams with a slot drive for a distributor and these are 2000 cars. The cam spec from a 2000 IE is good the VX cam would kill power, but is very unlikely to have been used. Strada   /Ritmo also used Exhaust cam drive and had larger valve heads so maybe you have a head change which is fine as long as the Beta cam boxes were used for the correct oil feed. The block numbers and head numbers can be checked in Guy Crofts first book.

Eric 
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JASPER_40
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2021, 08:02:51 AM »

Nice one.......thanks Eric.

Cheeky ask......Dont suppose you have said book ? Engine number 828B10000268240

Cheers,

Steve
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SanRemo78
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2021, 08:31:38 AM »

The VX & IE cars had a dizzy mounted on the end of the camshaft driven via a slot as Eric points out. The head could be a replacement from either a Fiat 131/132/124 Spider or a Lancia Montecarlo which were all gear driven off the exhaust camshaft. The cam covers will fit either engine so may have been swapped over on a rebuild. It won't be a Fiat block as there's no intermediate shaft mounting on those castings so the block (and therefore engine number) are likely to be the cars original Beta. I can't recall if there are any marks internally in the cam boxes to identify where it came from though.

Maybe at some point the car was converted to run twin 40's which would have meant having an alternative distributor setup?

Guy
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JASPER_40
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2021, 10:26:33 AM »

Hi Guy

I am prepared to believe that this engine, certainly the head, is not correct for this car but in all the searching I have done, cam driven dizzy engines occaisionally pop up which takes me all the way down the snake to where I started.

All these types of arrangement seem to be on the Australian or South African cars and maybe there is something about the spec for these countries that warrants this....such as aircon maybe ?

In my younger days I have had a 1600 coupe, 2000 HPE IE and a 2000 HPE VX and thought I was pretty well placed to determine the originality of a Lancia when I am 30 years down the line.....seems not

That 78 Coupe in the PC mag was an Australian Cam driven lump....but I cant figure this one aswell as there is no power steering or aircon on this engine to justify relocating the distributor....so must be an Australian / SA specification thing....right ?

The quest continues.....
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2021, 11:01:53 AM »

This is a different layout to the IE/VX cars. It is an Australia or Sweden specific fitting. Probably moved to there to allow extra space for something required at the front of the engine specific to those markets. The fact that it has air con may also be relevant. Facelift coupé production started in April 1978.
Overall I would suggest that it's probably not an import or was altered to Australian spec when imported. Kosta Giorgio will probably know but I'm not sure if he's on here or not.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 11:11:11 AM by rossocorsa » Logged
JASPER_40
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2021, 03:58:56 PM »

Have you noticed the chassis number stamped on the top of the suspension turret aswell ?.....another thing that puzzles me as i have only ever seen the chassis number stamped into the scuttle opposite the wiper motor.....not on this one!

A real mystery car but I am still optimistic
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frankxhv773t
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2021, 07:41:08 PM »

In case things aren't confusing enough already shouldn't a 1978 car have a bag type screen wash reservoir on the inner wing rather than the hard plastic bottle beside the battery?
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hutch6610
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2021, 08:29:43 PM »

Quote
shouldn't a 1978 car have a bag type screen wash reservoir on the inner wing rather than the hard plastic bottle beside the battery?

Not when its occupied by the air-conditioner fuse box as in this case. Interesting the way the fuse box appears to fit further out also.

Rossocorrsa has it about right i think.
Quote
Probably moved to there to allow extra space for something required at the front of the engine specific to those markets.

Original alternator location is occupied by the aircon pump, alternator is moved upward - you can clearly see it is much higher in the photos so where else would you fit the distributor other than in the exhaust cam box? That end cam driven distributor didn't exist until IE in 1982 or so surely?.
Also this coupe has the instruments in kilometres, i would have thought SA would use Miles Per Hour.

If you look at another example with air con
http://topclassiccarsforsale.com/lancia/27207-1977-lancia-beta-hpe.html
 (hope this is allowed) it appears to have what look like yellow plug leads coming out from pretty much the same location

Chances are that the engine is correct and not messed about with (other than by the factory) Could you not get any information from the blue chassis plate as its clearly visible on carsales.co.au?
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peteracs
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2021, 08:54:07 PM »

In case things aren't confusing enough already shouldn't a 1978 car have a bag type screen wash reservoir on the inner wing rather than the hard plastic bottle beside the battery?

1978 was the crossover year for pre/facelift and facelift cars, so either would probably be possible. This one is obviously facelift having the airbox, washer bottle, fuse box etc from the facelift car.

Peter
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JASPER_40
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2021, 03:48:17 AM »

Interesting the way the fuse box appears to fit further out also.

I thought this aswell and during my entire research period, I have never seen this. Must be a personal mod as this is definitely the correct fusebox and location.....how strange.

Original alternator location is occupied by the aircon pump, alternator is moved upward.

I agree that the higher alternator makes room for the Aircon but the same would be true for the power steering pump but these cars witH PS dont have camshaft driven distributors though.....Still think this is probably the correct spec 2000 configuration for Australia / South Africa.

Could you not get any information from the blue chassis plate as its clearly visible on carsales.co.au?.

The number here is from before the 1981 17 Char ISO regs for Chassis numbers and so you cant decipher the required crucial info such as build date and target market etc. This type of chassis number is reknown for being unreliable and relies on factory records to determine all the key info. These factory records are apparently sketchy.

Question still stands about why the chassis number is stamped on the turret instead of the scuttle....anyone ?

The following pics are of an Australian mustard 1977 Beta coupe S1 (note distributor pos on this one aswell) and as you can see the pre ISO Chassis number stamped on the scuttle which is where I always though it should be and then this silver 1978 S2 with the number stamped on the turret (nothing on the scuttle)


* DSCN4656.JPG (194.79 KB, 940x705 - viewed 61 times.)

* CH32 (2).jpg (279.95 KB, 1060x1005 - viewed 63 times.)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 08:38:06 AM by JASPER_40 » Logged
JASPER_40
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2021, 04:10:13 AM »

1978 was the crossover year for pre/facelift and facelift cars, so either would probably be possible.

Yeh, I agree that this is possible to have a 1978 S2 facelift. Is this supposed to be reflected in on the blue chassis plate in some way ?.....I did read somewhere that "FL"(Face lift) was included in the Chassis number to distinguish the S1's from the early S2's. I probably read this on the internet so it must be true Cheesy
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 08:22:02 AM by JASPER_40 » Logged
SanRemo78
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2021, 10:03:32 AM »

I had a 1978 S2 F/L Coupe. Bought back in 1988, rotten to the core and used as a donor for my Stratos replica. 828BC1*012159 had the brown vinyl/mustard velour interior, early headlights and raised centre section on the bonnet.

It's gear-lever, wooden know, glovebox lock/key, driveshafts and 3 of it's CV joints as well as registration number live on in perpetuity. Well, at least as long as I have the car.

Guy
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Nigel
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 12:00:17 PM »

Jasper,
As far as I recall, during my time at TAK in South Africa, I didn't see
an exhaust cam-driven distributor on a carb car.
Certainly, my 1980 HPE [in SA] had a block mounted distributor,
and my current 1984 Aus-spec carb HPE has the same.   

Nigel
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oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
JASPER_40
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2021, 01:43:15 PM »

As far as I recall, during my time at TAK in South Africa, I didn't see
an exhaust cam-driven distributor on a carb car.
Certainly, my 1980 HPE [in SA] had a block mounted distributor,
and my current 1984 Aus-spec carb HPE has the same.
Hi Nigel, I am only guessing that this thing was imported from South Africa. It was last registered to someone in Sydney and it was a "personal import" so I am guessting that it came from SA as this is the only place where you would conceiveabley find factory fitted A/C. The car was then bought 14 years ago by its current owner who is in Tazmania but didnt register it as it was part of a private collection and only ever driven out on the road under trade plates.

I am in Western Australia and was hoping to get it shipped. I so want the car.....

Cheers,

Steve

I had a 1978 S2 F/L Coupe. Bought back in 1988
Guy, I had a 1979 S1 when I was 21, Blue with Orange seats and it was just the best. Later on I bought an 84 2000 HPE IE and then an HPE Volumex write-off which I used as a donor to build a Ferrari 308 replica.

I really want to get this Car in Taz but is is just not stacking up for a whole host of reasons..... Just had it inspected and it has issues which cannot anywhere near justify the asking price.....doh !

Cheers,

Steve





« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 01:52:56 PM by JASPER_40 » Logged
frankxhv773t
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2021, 08:48:37 PM »

Forgive my confusion on the washer bottle, my last three Betas have been pre-face lift and it's over three decades since I ran a face lift HPE.
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1962 Flaminia Berlina 2.5
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