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Author Topic: Historic status and substantial changes  (Read 168 times)
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peteracs
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« on: July 09, 2021, 04:24:26 PM »

Hi All

This is very much a U.K. topic, so apologies to this outside the U.K….

The 40 year rule allows (most) of our cars now to be registered as Historic vehicles which allows no MOT and zero Annual tax, the tax is fine, I am not a supporter of the no MOT necessary bit.

Anyway one part of it is if the car is ‘Substantially changed’ then it does still need to submitted for MOT.

On reading here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf

It appears that modifying the engine, ie similar engine with modern parts, is not classed as substantial as would be uprated brakes.

Anyone have a different view or experience?

Peter

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SanRemo78
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2021, 06:14:23 PM »

I'd be tempted to ask your insurance company first about not bothering with an annual MOT test. You might find that they consider it to be evidence that the car is actually properly looked after? Substantially modified will always be subjective. Tinting windows to wider tyres to twin forties are all modifications but are they substantial, some more than others. On the other hand, taking a dead Beta, keeping a couple of driveshafts, engine and gearbox and turning it into a Stratos replica is definitely substantially modified....

Take the historic tax status as soon as it's available. Always MOT the car. That's my advice!

Guy
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2021, 07:53:13 PM »

I wouldn't say there would be any cause for alarm for the vast majority of changes that members of this forum are likely to make. The engine may well be 'improved', but it is (in most cases) part of the original engine 'family'; i.e. it's an Aurelio Lampredi designed 4 cylinder unit. The guidance specifically states that changing the capacity is not a problem as long as the engine is of the original 'type'/ Likewise, converting from carbs to fuel injection would not be an issue, as later models were injected. If you were to try and shoehorn an American V8 in, I think you would have problems though.

I have uprated discs and calipers waiting to go on my Spider and these can easily be justified as a 'change made to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance'. I'm sure that get out of jail free card can be applied in a number of areas.

I recently registered a 41 year old motorcycle as a Historic Vehicle and the process was simplicity itself. I just turned up to the local Post Office on April 1st of the year following the bike's 40th anniversary of first registration with my V5C (which was surrendered), filled in a form and the Post lady sent both off to DVLA for me. About 6 weeks later I received a new V5C confirming Historic Vehicle and MoT exempt status. No inspection, no drama, no problem.

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WestonE
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2021, 07:36:48 AM »

I am with Guy on this one. Even if my cars were not substantially modified an independent opinion that my cars are road worthy could be the difference between getting an insurance payout and no fault or not. Plus frankly I like someone else to check my work once a year.

On road tax I will take that for free in the blink of an eye.

Eric 
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squiglyzigly
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2021, 09:21:34 AM »

A slightly different aspect of historic status for a few of us is the exemption from the ULEZ zone charge which expands later this year.
Personally I am intending using my Berlina as a daily to work in E. London.
The transport for London rules say that Historic status vehicles are exempt from paying the daily charge.
But, if you use their online charge checker it says my vehicle has to pay every charge they have and the forthcoming expansion.
I’ve contacted them for clarity but their reply’s are pre-prepared forms of no relevance. I’m still trying to get an answer but clearly no-one is interested or prepared to commit to an answer.

I’ll keep trying  Cry

Ian
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peteracs
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2021, 10:14:43 PM »

Hi Ian

How long has your Berlina had historic status?

It may just be their database may not have been updated yet. I had this with my wife’s car with the QE bridge charge. It is a Motability supplied car and registered disabled do not pay the charge, but it took a few months to get their system to recognise the car when new as their database is only updated every so often from the DVLA apparently.

Peter
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WestonE
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2021, 09:37:43 AM »

HI Ian

Perhaps AA or RAC for advice or Federation of Historic Vehicles?

Eric
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2021, 11:01:22 AM »

I'd also agree with using the annual MoT as a sanity check. I'd much prefer to know about any issues that were arising rather than being blissfully unaware.

Interestingly in France the MoT equivalent (the Controle Technique) is bi-annual, and that for registered Historic Vehicles is every 5 years. So the French authorities appear to be more trusting of the general motorist and slightly less trusting of the classic vehicle owner than their UK counterparts.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
squiglyzigly
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2021, 11:43:53 AM »

Peter the historic status was put on the log book 12 months ago. I remember this as it has just had its free road tax renewed.
I friend of mine has a 1960s split screen VW camper which has been historic status for a few years and he’s getting the same problem on the tfl website vehicle charge checker.
Equally he cannot get any sensible replies from tfl.

Eric you may be right to make the organisations aware of this before many owners get stung come October.
I imagine the automotive organisations have better channels to communicate with the government departments than us singularly.

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Beta coupé VX (completed April 2017)
Beta Saloon 2000 s2 1979 (completed July 2020)
Aprilia RSVR 2002
Aprilia Tuono R (130 rear wheel BHP)
Alfa 159 sportwagon jtd eco (slower than a courgette)
Kevo
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2021, 02:30:55 PM »

Somewhere in the small print on the checker it explains that (for London only) it only checks the emissions standard of the vehicle not the VED status.  To check whether you need to pay the charge go to the 'Pay to Drive in London' page and continue as if paying, it will then show the vehicle as exempt and no charge payable.
Cheers Kev.
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squiglyzigly
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2021, 08:06:40 PM »

Kev you are right. I’ve just had a reply that backs up what you say.
My problem is that I’m older than my car and I just don’t understand why there is a ‘Checker’ that doesn’t ‘check’.
The ‘Checker’ also says my 2007 Alfa 159 diesel 1.9 isn’t subject to the Ulez charge. But it is because it isn’t the required Euro emissions spec.
Again in the small print there is a caveat that states the ‘Checker’ might not be correct.

Rant over, wine open. Time for a little lay down.

Ian


* B16510EF-A6A5-4B1D-BFBA-AC0212B7F6E3.png (278.84 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 31 times.)
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Beta coupé VX (completed April 2017)
Beta Saloon 2000 s2 1979 (completed July 2020)
Aprilia RSVR 2002
Aprilia Tuono R (130 rear wheel BHP)
Alfa 159 sportwagon jtd eco (slower than a courgette)
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