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News: Meetameeta21 Oxfordshire 27th-29th August
https://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4521.0
 
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Author Topic: Filthy fuel tank saga  (Read 1273 times)
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Jono
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« on: February 25, 2021, 06:26:27 PM »

The silver 2000 Coupe I acquired back in Sep 20 hasn't been very far sadly. The garage completed much work, including fuel tank cleaning with an acid solution. Carb was refurb'd as far as posdible. Apparent wear in the butterfly spindle remains unresolved.  Since back with me after only approx 70 miles of local driving the fuel filter was almost entirely blocked with grey/brown sludge. Now replaced filter. The car  warms up to temp, auto-choke off, then stalls but restarts  easily. This occurs whilst standing and when running, the stall happens at low revs when taking a junction at low speeds. Perhaps incorrect mixture? Am I looking at further tank investigation? Perhaps I should just run the car up and see what more there is to come through? On a run before Christmas the poor thing overheated. Boiling over waiting at temp traffic lights. Transpired it was a poor electrical connection to the fan thermostat... Fan now cuts in correctly. I would appreciate any thoughts and advice, even if it's just to stop worrying and be patient... Jono
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peteracs
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2021, 11:09:26 PM »

Hi

The stall may very well be due to air leak at the spindle weakening the mixture at idle. Some brake cleaner or similar sprayed near the spindle at idle will confirm an issue if the revs rise. I guess t raking the idle screw is your only hope of that is the case.


Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
WestonE
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2021, 08:38:20 AM »

Hi Jono

I would have doubts about the tank clean if I got a rapidly clogged filter. However it may be residue from the clean and the next filter removes any remaining crud so try running the car taking a new filter with you and check frequently.
If it fills with Crud quickly they simply have not cleaned the tank properly.

I would expect to change the filter again in 500 miles anyway to get a clean system.

Eric
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Neil-yaj396
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1979 1300 Coupe


« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2021, 12:20:53 PM »

I had literally years of fueling problems with my car when I bought it after it had been little used for a long time. This is my go to thread on the subject;

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=649.0
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frankxhv773t
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2021, 01:42:25 PM »

Someone on the LMC forum had similar issues with a Fulvia. One suggestion was to keep some cheap in-line fuel filters in the car and change them as they become clogged. Eventually all the muck is intercepted and uninterrupted motoring can resume.
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1995 Dedra 2.0 16v SW
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1962 Flaminia Berlina 2.5
Nigel
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2021, 03:25:58 PM »


I saw a thread this week from Darren Cooksey about having new Monte tanks made up
and wondered whether anyone had had this done for their Coupe/HPE etc.

This would be the ultimate answer to such issues.

Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
WestonE
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2021, 05:04:57 PM »

Hi Nigel

I agree and what Darren is having made is important to this. The tanks he is having made in Aluminum have built in Swirl pots and full size return pipes and breathers. This makes fitting Fuel Injection much easier by just installing a high pressure pump with pre filter outside the tank. It will also work for carb cars by simply using a low pressure pump and regulator. Beta VX & IE tanks are a nightmare to clean and coat internally because they have built in swirl pots. But aluminum is not prone to rusting in the same way. It is Alloy Racing Fabrications making the Monte Tanks, but someone has to put the effort into providing the right samples including the variation between Coupe & HPE tanks.

For my build I found probably the last NOS carb tank in Europe. Before cutting it open, removing any existing baffles & installing a Phantom in tank fuel injection pump and swirl pot. It might have been easier and possibly cheaper to have got a new alloy tank made with built in swirl pot, large bore outlet (VX & IE size) and the right breather and filler neck return.

Maybe Darren could be persuade if we ask nicely to get some made for Beta Coupe/HPE.

Eric   

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Nigel
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2021, 08:03:09 PM »

Eric, well said. Compatibility will be the key.

Ideally it would be preferable to have one tank spec that will be
a direct replacement albeit with slight fitting mods.

So is the Coupe tank dimensionally the same as the HPE.......and could it be so, if not.
Are the 4 mounting points in the same position, and if not, are they close enough to just require drilling the lugs.
Is the filler spigot the same diameter on all variants, and could it be in the same position for all. { I know that some variants
have 6-8 inches of steel neck. For example, mine doesn't]
For the rest, an IE spec [fuel sender, breather, outlet] can be the same.

Too many questions....help!
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
Jono
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« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2021, 06:23:16 PM »

Many thanks to all for pointing me in certain directions on carbs and fuelling issues generally. The 'link' was uesful. Was able to get the car out of it's lockup today in fine weather. Start-up was all good, and once warm it idled correctly. New filter showing clear fuel, no sludge so far... Had a thorough check over exhaust security, when I noticed petrol dripping and pooling below tank! Wetting the area where the rear transverse links meet and fix. Not great when you entrust your car to a garage and it's returned with fresh faults, all relating to the areas that were supposedly made good... Thank goodness for free breakdown and recovery with my Nationwide bank account is really all I can say. Jono
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Neil-yaj396
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1979 1300 Coupe


« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2021, 06:42:14 PM »

Re the leak it will be worth checking the pipe connections under the plastic cover in the boot floor. If the flexible pipe there hasn't been replaced when the tank was cleaned it may have hardened and not sealed back on properly when refitted. Also the clip may not have been fully tightened.
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Jono
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2021, 07:33:40 PM »

Neil, ah ha, was just consulting Haynes to see if access can be gained from the boot?! I have a 77 model so hopefully I have access, it just says 'early models it is not possible...'. Am still new to the car, and my lockup is 13 miles away from homebase, will set to this investigation early next week. Thankfully I have a helpful, local mechanic if I get stuck. No more so-called specialist classic car workshops, am learning lessons...  J
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peteracs
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2021, 08:03:50 PM »

Hi Jono

You should also look to see what spec flexible fuel lines you have. The current E5 fuel has ethanol in it which can quickly render old fuel lines porous. Use the correct ethanol resistant pipe for peace of mind. With a carb car you have two at the tank and three in the engine bay.

Peter
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GerardJPC
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2021, 12:17:41 PM »

The fuel tank is coming out of my Beta today.  There is an occasional interruption to power that might be attributable to clag in the tank.

BTW, the car now dines exclusively on Esso Supreme 99+.  No Ethanol.
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1979 Beta 1600 Coupe

1962 Lancia Appia Series 3 Berlina
1973 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe 1800
1975 Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
1977 Princess 2200 HL
1981 Lotus Eclat Series 2 (project FOR SALE)
1982 Moto Guzzi V50 Monza
1982 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1983 Land Rover Series 3 88
2009 Jaguar XK 5.0
Sandro
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2021, 04:01:49 PM »

Neil, ah ha, was just consulting Haynes to see if access can be gained from the boot?! I have a 77 model so hopefully I have access, it just says 'early models it is not possible...'. Am still new to the car, and my lockup is 13 miles away from homebase, will set to this investigation early next week. Thankfully I have a helpful, local mechanic if I get stuck. No more so-called specialist classic car workshops, am learning lessons...  J

Jono, don't let your experience with the 'Specialist' outfit put you off, I had a similar one when I first bought mine. It can be disheartening, but don't let it dissolve any enthusiasm you have for your car. It's an unfortunate part of the Journey, It's good if you can find someone who appreciates your car as you do and enjoys working on it. That's a Specialist to me. I hope you get your fueling issues sorted.     

All the Best, Andrew
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2005 Opel Vectra ( everyday )
Jono
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2021, 08:35:06 PM »

Many thanks Andrew for your supportive words. It can feel mighty lonely. Compounded when certain people say to you "what made you buy one of those cars? They were always rubbish back in the day...!" I will get there, this forum is psychologically, and practically very helpful. Gerard's fuel tank images out of situ were particularly pertinent. Saturday I shall be attempting to access as many jubilee clips as I can without removing the tank... Jono
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peteracs
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2021, 10:49:32 PM »

Hi

Do not get despondent. Yes it can be frustrating and take loads of time, but any old car will do that. As to why, pretty simple answer is they are interesting cars in their time and not many around which compounds that.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 11:03:05 AM by peteracs » Logged

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GerardJPC
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2021, 07:52:02 AM »

Yes, hang on in there.   Betas are very rewarding to drive, and are much more refined and efficient than rival cars from, for example, BL, Ford, and Fiat (and I say that as a BL and Fiat fan).  Indeed, BL had nothing to match a Beta Coupe or Spider - fast, handly, refined, well equipped.   My Fiat from 1973 is really a 1960s sports car with a 1970s make over, and although it has disc brakes and a five speed gearbox it also it has a steering box and a live rear axle, whereas the Beta is a 1970s car.  Although modern cars (I mean cars post around 1999) are boring, in a classic car it can be a virtue that the car was advanced and modern in its time.
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1979 Beta 1600 Coupe

1962 Lancia Appia Series 3 Berlina
1973 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe 1800
1975 Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
1977 Princess 2200 HL
1981 Lotus Eclat Series 2 (project FOR SALE)
1982 Moto Guzzi V50 Monza
1982 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1983 Land Rover Series 3 88
2009 Jaguar XK 5.0
frankxhv773t
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2021, 10:47:50 AM »

As Peter says, don't be despondent. Those who say "they were rubbish back in the day" are narrow minded, ignorant and not worthy of your attention. You will meet plenty of people who say " wow, my brother / father / uncle had one of those and it was fantastic". The challenges and frustrations are what provide the satisfaction of classic car ownership when you overcome them.
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1995 Dedra 2.0 16v SW
1987 Y10 Fire
1977 Beta Spider 1.6
1962 Flaminia Berlina 2.5
Sandro
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2021, 10:59:38 AM »

As Peter says, don't be despondent. Those who say "they were rubbish back in the day" are narrow minded, ignorant and not worthy of your attention. You will meet plenty of people who say " wow, my brother / father / uncle had one of those and it was fantastic". The challenges and frustrations are what provide the satisfaction of classic car ownership when you overcome them.

Well said Frank.
( thumbs up here )

A.
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1972 Honda cub
1984 Silver 2000i HPE
2005 Opel Vectra ( everyday )
GerardJPC
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2021, 11:52:47 AM »

Garage forecourt idiots are a hazard that comes with owning any classic car.   They are all "experts" based on watching Clarkson, and if you drive an old Italian or BL car you get all the nonsense.  Some of it is based on envy.
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1979 Beta 1600 Coupe

1962 Lancia Appia Series 3 Berlina
1973 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe 1800
1975 Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
1977 Princess 2200 HL
1981 Lotus Eclat Series 2 (project FOR SALE)
1982 Moto Guzzi V50 Monza
1982 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1983 Land Rover Series 3 88
2009 Jaguar XK 5.0
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