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News: NEC Classic Car Show 12th-14th November 2021
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Author Topic: Volumex cloth reproduction  (Read 5269 times)
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chrisc
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« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2021, 05:07:28 PM »

Hi all, I was hoping to have a production ready sample this week but the latest sample still has one more tweak to do where the requirement got lost in translation a bit but hopefully is now resolved following a conversation today.

Once again I shall lift the bonnet a bit with a snapshot of what's left..




The latest test run you can see a line at the edge of the rectangles has been tidied up
The last issue is 'the pattern lines are running in the wrong direction' - this has been muddled a bit with confusion because of the direction the cloth comes off the loom and the direction I've been describing it in are different.

Waiting a little longer I'm afraid.. on the delta cloth mentioned, I've confirmed with the supplier that with the pattern sorted, changing the colours is comparatively simple - once we get the final pattern right we can cross that bridge

Cheers
Chris
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« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2021, 06:15:05 PM »

Hi Chris

Looking very nice. One quick question are you expecting the final material to be harder wearing than the original?

Peter
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« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2021, 08:42:00 PM »

@Chris

Thanks for asking about colour options but I think if possible I will go with this option.

Not sure if it's the way the photos taken but the colour seems to change colour grey(left side) to a blue(right side) of photo is that correct?

Great work again though and great attention to detail.

Regards
James
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chrisc
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« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2021, 09:34:26 PM »

Hi Chris

Looking very nice. One quick question are you expecting the final material to be harder wearing than the original?

Peter

Yes - where the original cloth is just wool as such, this is wool over a cotton base. It's immediately apparent when handling it that it's going to be far more resistant to pulls and the like than the original cloth
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chrisc
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« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2021, 09:38:43 PM »

@Chris

Thanks for asking about colour options but I think if possible I will go with this option.

Not sure if it's the way the photos taken but the colour seems to change colour grey(left side) to a blue(right side) of photo is that correct?

Great work again though and great attention to detail.

Regards
James

The most recent photo I've taken is particularly poor with the colour resolution, but yes, all the samples produced have had a range of colours on them to be assessed against the original material. You can see this more clearly in these photos from earlier in the thread -


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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2021, 06:49:46 AM »

@Chris

Thanks for reply.
That makes sense. Even though I saw your previous photos, I didn't manage to work that out for myself. Thanks for clarifying 👍
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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2021, 01:47:18 AM »

Nice work Chris. To me the test fabrics seems as if they have slightly too much blue in them, maybe scale this back? I would definitely be interested buying new cloth, although I think my front Recaro seats are actually still ok. The rear seats are still beige though not the black blue grey cloth of the front Recaros. I would like enough cloth to re-trim the whole car (HPE VX) including door cards and side panels so it all matches. And will durability of this new cloth be much better than the old cloth? The original just wasn't robust enough or colour fast. It looked fabulous though.

Underneath seats maybe a good place to take a sample of the original cloth from as little exposure to UV light down there, possibly.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 01:52:55 AM by andybeta » Logged
chrisc
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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2021, 04:59:06 PM »

Hello again everyone!

Well, I thought it would take 2 or 3 iterations to get a decent recreation of the cloth..

It took 6, but we are there! more durable, better constructed cloth, as it would have been when it was new - no frayed / fluffy yarn, colours all unfaded. I can't wait to get this into my own car.

I'm placing an order for enough for 9 full cars (including my own) based off the interest so far, expecting delivery mid-July

I'll be £redacted a metre to buy - full disclosure I am an enthusiast who got into this because I wanted the cloth for my own car, I'm not really interested in selling the cloth for a profit, so this'll be a cheap introductory price, and any that doesn't sell quickly I intend to pass on to Beta Boyz to sell, which I would expect to be more than my own - certainly if I was doing this as a business I would be asking for more Smiley

This is an initial run and we can order more in the future as needed, including in different colours if wanted, like the chap with the Delta - the pattern has been the hard bit to match, not colours..

This first order hits bulk discount territory, minimum order for future runs from the supplier would be about 2 cars worth.

Fingers crossed the stars will align for me to bring the cloth down to the get together at the end of July.

Anyway, enough words, lets have some pictures -

Weather here is abysmal so no photos in natural outside light, but here we are


And here's a detailed shot of it with some original cloth at the top. You can see that even with this original cloth in relatively good condition, it's fluffier / less distinct where the yarn has frayed.



I won't be taking money off anyone for orders yet until I have the full run in my hands, but if you've been watching this thread and waiting to see how it turns out, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll contact you when it lands.

Chris
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 08:11:28 PM by chrisc » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2021, 05:24:52 PM »

Hi Chris

Fantastic news I will be at Mark's Open Day. Let me know when you need the money please.

I do have a slight doubt on how good a match is it to the un faded original fabric found under the headrests and sometimes on rear door cards?

I am completely aware I am looking at a monitor and have no real world reference for the seats it is being compared to.

Thank you

Eric
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Dodgems
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« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2021, 07:51:07 PM »

Hi Chris
Thanks very much for your efforts.  Grin
We will be at Mark’s open day and we are interested in the cloth. We also have a VX HPE.
Is anyone else interested in looking in to having cloth made in the beige colour way for the HPE’s
Best regards
Amanda
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« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2021, 09:12:57 PM »

@Chris

What a fantastic job you have done, the effort you have clearly gone to to get this just right is amazing.
I'm still very interested in enough fabric for the whole car if possible. I know I was quite late to find this thread so don't want to jump ahead of anyone but count me in if you still have availability.

All the best
James

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« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2021, 10:21:24 PM »

What an absolutely brilliant job you've done Chris.

Although i'm happy with my outcome, had timing been different I would have loved to use
some original cloth.

Next time!
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« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2021, 10:44:49 PM »

Chris,

Absolutely top marks for perseverance and determination to get the job done right. Well done you. The end result looks great and will make a huge difference to the look and feel of our treasured old-timers. I certainly will sign up for enough to trim the whole interior (however much that may be), with probably a bit more for good measure. If you can organise it all for the meet up at Mark's place in July that would be fantastic. If not, then whenever it can be arranged is good for me. Really looking forward to seeing the end result in the flesh (or the cloth to be more precise...)

Graham
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« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2021, 04:25:05 AM »

Out of curiosity more than anything else I wonder if cloth patterns are copyrighted. I seem to remember the chequered Volumex cloth being proudly proclaimed as being by the fashion house Zegna.



A fabric design is likely to be protected by copyright.  See Response Clothing Ltd v The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Ltd [2020] EWHC 148 (IPEC), a decision of the English High Court made last year.

Zegna, a brand still owned by the family of its founder, designed fabric for Betas and also for Deltas and (IIRC) Gammas.  The copyright in the fabric is likely to be held either by Zegna or by Lancia (in other words by Stellantis).   The copyright will last a while yet - its duration is pegged to a period measured from the death of whichever person created the design (probably an employee of Zegna, which became the first owner of the IP because it employed the creator of the IP, and which may have transferred the IP to Lancia).   That person may well still be living.  If he or she has died, he or she will not have been dead long enough for the copyright to expire.

Whether Zegna or Lancia would object to infringement of the copyright by and for a small group of old car enthusiasts is not clear.  Note however that Stellantis has recently announced that it will be supporting Alfa, Fiat, and Lancia cars from the 1990s by selling parts for them.   As the new fossil fuel-driven car heads towards its demise, many big brands are ramping up their heritage offerings.  

There has been much emotive misreporting of Jaguar Land Rover's recent action against a Swedish couple who made a replica of a C Type Jaguar.   The story has been spun by the Swedes and their supporters, and by some car journalists who should know better, as a Goliath defeats David story of a greedy corporate crushing a couple of hapless enthusiasts.  In fact, the Swedes were found by the Court in Sweden to have been planning to rip-off JLR's IP for commercial gain, and that is what led to the law suit.      

A small production run of fabric, not intended to make a profit, or with profits donated to a charity or to other Lancia heritage projects, might be the sort of thing that the owner of the IP would not mind.

IAAL.  IANYL.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 04:32:03 AM by GerardJPC » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2021, 11:35:06 AM »

I really hope that considerations of copyright won't influence Chris's intentions to proceed with this. I think that were the original cloth still available at sensible cost, this question would never have arisen. But it's not and Chris has admirably stepped into the breach. While I am no lawyer, I would have thought that the actions of a small group of enthusiasts trying to keep a marque alive (that Fiat appears to have cut loose) would not need to trouble copyright lawyers. I'm not sure how cloth differs from, say, engine or chassis parts when being re-manufactured. There's no great outcry when BetaBoyz remanufacture hard or impossible to get parts - why should it be any different with respect to the cloth used in the manufacture of Betas?

For me the over-riding point is that the original cloth is NLA, has not been for many years, and is unlikely to ever be so. I suspect that volumes would be so small that the original copyright holder would have no interest in it anyway.
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« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2021, 12:18:31 PM »

As for car parts, there are various EU rules that enable the manufacture and supply of pattern parts for cars, in order to reduce the anti-competitive effect of large companies controlling the supply of parts.     The supply of fabric for seats probably falls outside those rules, but unless either Zegna or Lancia, whichever owns the copyright, is planning to sell the cloth or even whole seats again, then the IP owner might not be bothered by a small production run aimed at sales to enthusiasts.   
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1979 Beta 1600 Coupe

1962 Lancia Appia Series 3 Berlina
1973 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe 1800
1975 Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
1977 Princess 2200 HL
1981 Lotus Eclat Series 2 (project FOR SALE)
1982 Moto Guzzi V50 Monza
1982 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1983 Land Rover Series 3 88
2009 Jaguar XK 5.0
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« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2021, 11:58:32 PM »

Hi

I think the only real  issue here would be if Chris or the company making the cloth were to offer it on a commercial basis to all comers, which is the point Gerard makes above. So long as the company are happy making it, then a group buy should present no issue. A little less clear would be Mark reselling it I guess?

Peter
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« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2021, 01:26:59 PM »

I wonder if the company manufacturing the cloth might be able to advise on IP rights? Unless it is confirmed there is no issue then being circumspect about how widely it is advertised may be the most prudent option.
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« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2021, 07:37:12 PM »

Wrong horse for the course!   By this I mean that, if you want legal advice that you can reasonably rely on, it's prudent to obtain that advice from someone whose job it is to give such advice, and who is insured against the risk of getting the advice wrong.  
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 09:40:45 AM by GerardJPC » Logged

1979 Beta 1600 Coupe

1962 Lancia Appia Series 3 Berlina
1973 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe 1800
1975 Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
1977 Princess 2200 HL
1981 Lotus Eclat Series 2 (project FOR SALE)
1982 Moto Guzzi V50 Monza
1982 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1983 Land Rover Series 3 88
2009 Jaguar XK 5.0
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« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2021, 11:20:52 AM »

Whilst I fully agree that legal advice should come from a properly qualified source my thought was that a company commercially reproducing somebody else's design "might" already have covered the issue with their own legal advisors. If so that would give some measure of reassurance even if not actual legal protection.
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