Lancia Beta Forum
September 24, 2021, 03:55:40 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beta Meeta 50th Anniversary 2022
https://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4385.0
 
   Home   Help Contact Admin Search Calendar Gallery Articles Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Why was this disconnected?  (Read 1225 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2021, 03:50:09 PM »

Battery trays are always vulnerable due to spilt battery acid. Am I right that the battery tray unbolts so you can take it out for repainting?

A small hinge and a wing nut bolt keeps it in place on one side and the battery slips under a lip on the edge nearest the wing (see some of the earlier photos). You have to be careful that the wing nut is properly fastened though, not a great solution tbh. Yes, it looks like the tray will come out, as it is bolted in place.
Logged
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2021, 03:51:09 PM »

4x13mm bolts on my VX. Just re-fitted it last week!

Yes, looks like mine has a similar deal.
Logged
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2021, 04:12:33 PM »

Hi Andrew, if you suspect electrics as the issue then changing battery will get you so far. Earthing crops up quite a few times on this forum, so too does checking HT leads, battery terminals etc. For example I have had my alternator reconditioned as I was only get 12v output. I still have feint glow on charging light and also have lower-than-expected voltage on wiper motor so I need to trace through a bit more of my electrics. Going on the fact mine was registered 1 year before yours I'm guessing there might be some common themes.

FYI I currently have carb, radiator, battery and starter removed for cleaning / refurb for the remainder of this week and next. If you need photos of "under the battery tray" or questions like "How long are the cables" I might be able to help.

Hi John, I put the battery in yesterday and left that switch unconnected, turned the key to start the electrics and put it into reverse, but no reversing lights. I then did the same with the switch connected, but still no reverse lights. Then checked to see if it would start and it did on second turnover and sounded fine. As you mentioned, there is a very faint light on the battery indicator, but nowhere near bright as before I took the battery out in January. So, I'm trying to figure out why the reverse lights aren't working in both instances and why the battery is draining?

Electrical issues: I had a new alternator fitted a few months after I bought it (I still have the old one if anyone is interested but it will need to be refurbed) and  re-furbed the wiper motor which made the wipers stronger than before (got me through the MOT in any case!) but adequate, not brilliant. The positive battery lead has an earth, the negative lead also has a wire loosely wrapped around it and doesn't look like it was factory fitted!

In regard to any questions, if you could confirm that it is the reverse switch (seeing as you also have your battery out) and what other issues could be causing A) the reverse lights not to function and B) what could be causing the battery drainage which seems to be occurring?

Thanks again for your time,

Andrew

Logged
SanRemo78
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 99


« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2021, 06:01:52 PM »

How about this: Get a circuit tester and see if either wire is live with the ignition on. If it is check that the other wire is an earth. Then try bridging them - connecting the two cables together and see if the result is reversing lights on? If they do come on it'll tell you that the switch on the gearbox is faulty. I'd also be tempted to check the bulbs aren't blown. Can you run a power cable from the battery positive to the rear light cluster multiplug and poke each terminal in turn to identify the connections? Obviously don't poke the earth lead!
Guy
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 06:04:15 PM by SanRemo78 » Logged

Hawk HF3000 - Square Arch Stratos Replica - owned since 1988.
Hawk HF 3000 - Round Arch Stratos Replica - Under construction.
Alfa Romeo 159 T1 2.4 Q4 Sportwagon - Believed one of 4 in UK.
peteracs
Administrator
Legendary Member
******
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2722



« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2021, 06:22:47 PM »

Hi

For your battery drain, you need to hook up a multimeter in amps setting by disconnecting the positive lead to the battery and and putting the multimeter in series. This will tell you the current drain. It should be a few milliamps to cover the clock etc when the ignition is switched off.

You then need to systematically remove fuses to identify which circuit the main current drain is on. Once you have done that you can narrow it down to a specific item causing it.

I had a drain problem when I reconnected everything originally and it turned out to be the alternator, but in truth could be anything.

Peter
Logged

Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2021, 07:01:31 PM »

How about this: Get a circuit tester and see if either wire is live with the ignition on. If it is check that the other wire is an earth. Then try bridging them - connecting the two cables together and see if the result is reversing lights on? If they do come on it'll tell you that the switch on the gearbox is faulty. I'd also be tempted to check the bulbs aren't blown. Can you run a power cable from the battery positive to the rear light cluster multiplug and poke each terminal in turn to identify the connections? Obviously don't poke the earth lead!
Guy

Hi Guy,
Thanks for the advice and some food for thought there. To be honest, the electrical stuff is a bit above my pay grade and I will probably get a professional involved. At least it is narrowing the issue down a bit.
Cheers,
Andrew
Logged
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2021, 07:03:52 PM »

Hi

For your battery drain, you need to hook up a multimeter in amps setting by disconnecting the positive lead to the battery and and putting the multimeter in series. This will tell you the current drain. It should be a few milliamps to cover the clock etc when the ignition is switched off.

You then need to systematically remove fuses to identify which circuit the main current drain is on. Once you have done that you can narrow it down to a specific item causing it.

I had a drain problem when I reconnected everything originally and it turned out to be the alternator, but in truth could be anything.

Peter

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the advice and this seems a bit more feasible for someone of my limited ability to carry out and I will give it a go in due course!
Cheers,
Andrew
Logged
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2021, 04:10:13 PM »

Hi,

Just an update on my Spyder and the battery drain issue. I've now re-furbed the battery tray and it looks a lot better than before. Luckily it had been rust treated by a previous owner, so it only needed a good clean, an undercoat and a few top coats of cellulose red to get it looking better. The battery drain issue is still stumping me a bit though. The battery was still draining and when I have been re-charging, the charger amp meter stops at about 2 amps charge rate, even after 24 hours on low charge setting and when I connect the battery back up, it only shows a half charge on the battery dashboard indicator. I have tried the multimeter hook-up and this is giving a reading go 0.03-0.04 on 10 amp setting, so this would seem normal and no need to pull out any fuses etc.? The battery is a new Yuasa one fitted last Autumn.

Anyway just seeing if you might have an idea of what might be going on.

Thank again.

Logged
peteracs
Administrator
Legendary Member
******
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2722



« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2021, 04:58:01 PM »

Hi

Out of interest as I could not see it in the thread, how long does it take for the battery to get to the point of being unable to start the car?

As you say 30mA drain is not that serious, though I would try to establish what is actually drawing the current just in case it varies over time?

Peter
Logged

Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
frankxhv773t
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 153



« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2021, 09:59:21 AM »

I would still recommend pulling the fuses out one by one to see if the power drain relates to a specific circuit. It's such a simple thing to do and could eliminate the majority of potential sources for the problem. Either it will show that the problem is before the fuse box or it will show which circuit, and therefore which group of components, you need to focus on.

I wouldn't rule out your "new" alternator as the source of the problem. I once had an alternator refurbished and it came back faulty. The voltage regulator wasn't doing it's job so blowing a critical component and killing all the electrics in the car with frightening results at 70 mph in the outside lane of a contraflow on the motorway. An auto-electrician diagnosed it and simply swapped in a new circuit board to cure the problem.

Logged

1995 Dedra 2.0 16v SW
1987 Y10 Fire
1977 Beta Spider 1.6
1962 Flaminia Berlina 2.5
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2021, 06:53:36 PM »

Hi

Out of interest as I could not see it in the thread, how long does it take for the battery to get to the point of being unable to start the car?

As you say 30mA drain is not that serious, though I would try to establish what is actually drawing the current just in case it varies over time?

Peter

I would still recommend pulling the fuses out one by one to see if the power drain relates to a specific circuit. It's such a simple thing to do and could eliminate the majority of potential sources for the problem. Either it will show that the problem is before the fuse box or it will show which circuit, and therefore which group of components, you need to focus on.

I wouldn't rule out your "new" alternator as the source of the problem. I once had an alternator refurbished and it came back faulty. The voltage regulator wasn't doing it's job so blowing a critical component and killing all the electrics in the car with frightening results at 70 mph in the outside lane of a contraflow on the motorway. An auto-electrician diagnosed it and simply swapped in a new circuit board to cure the problem.



Hi Peter and Frank,

Well if my memory serves me right, I took the battery out in December as I had Sorn'd it at that stage. So by the time it became historic in April this year (but it took 6 weeks for DVLA to do the paperwork, strikes, covid etc. so was only able to drive in mid-May) I then worked on the battery tray, and when that was done I hooked up the battery. It might start first time one day, but if I come back to it the day after, it struggles to turn over and eventually dies (the battery light on the dash is showing bright at this stage should this be the case?). Funny though, I might come back to it an hour later and it will start, so I am flummoxed to be honest. As mentioned I have tried to do a full charge, but it just seems to fall short and stick on 1-2 amps charge. I will see how it starts this evening and report back tomorrow.

Frank, I will still take a look at the fuses and yes, I had the alternator changed at a commercial garage, so it could well be a re-furb, I will investigate further. I wouldn't fancy everything dying on me at 70mph on the motorway either!

All the best,

Andrew
Logged
frankxhv773t
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 153



« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2021, 07:45:01 PM »

I presume the battery holds charge all right if it is disconnected? A methodical process of elimination is always the way to proceed.

Logged

1995 Dedra 2.0 16v SW
1987 Y10 Fire
1977 Beta Spider 1.6
1962 Flaminia Berlina 2.5
peteracs
Administrator
Legendary Member
******
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2722



« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2021, 08:35:44 PM »

Hi Andrew

If it fails to turn over the engine at one point and then later does turn it over, you most likely have an connection/earth issue. I suggest you check the voltage of the battery when it does not start. The ignition light will be bright until the alternator kicks in on start.

Peter
Logged

Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2021, 04:28:49 PM »

Hi Andrew

If it fails to turn over the engine at one point and then later does turn it over, you most likely have an connection/earth issue. I suggest you check the voltage of the battery when it does not start. The ignition light will be bright until the alternator kicks in on start.

Peter

I presume the battery holds charge all right if it is disconnected? A methodical process of elimination is always the way to proceed.



Hi Peter and Frank,

Well, it started first time on a couple of occasions yesterday moving out and back into the garage. I have attached a couple of photos of the battery connections as there is an odd wire 'wrapped' around the negative cable and some wires with spade connections on the positive which I'm inquisitive about. So wondering if these have something to do with the problem?

Frank on your point about the battery holding charge when disconnected, it was off the car for about 5 months this winter (kept in an indoor room) and when re-connected it started okay. It was after it has been connected back up for a while that I am having the starting issues.

Andrew


* Negative Battery Cable.jpg (509.14 KB, 709x945 - viewed 51 times.)

* Positive Battery Cable.jpg (558.22 KB, 709x945 - viewed 49 times.)
Logged
peteracs
Administrator
Legendary Member
******
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2722



« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2021, 06:11:04 PM »

Hi

Yes you should have some extra wires on the +ve and the pink wire may be to do with the brake fluid reservoir sensor?

Peter
Logged

Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
JohnFol
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 141



« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2021, 06:42:33 PM »

Check Peter's suggestion about it going to the brake fluid as that's an easy check however the Pink / Black also goes to the brake pad sensor. Both go to same warning light on dashboard so shorting it out will illuminate the same bulb so not much help.
A possibility is the brake pads were changed at some point, either without wear indicator (hence nothing for the wire to connect to), or they forgot to reconnect it




* RosaNero.JPG (21.72 KB, 306x406 - viewed 47 times.)
Logged
peteracs
Administrator
Legendary Member
******
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2722



« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2021, 07:44:39 PM »

Hi John

I think you are spot on as the spade connector plugs into the brake pad wear sensor and, as you say, is also connected to the brake fluid sensor.

Peter
Logged

Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
hutch6610
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2021, 01:50:59 AM »

AJ if you don't mind me saying but that earth lead looks kind of loose to me, it appears as if its has pulled out at least 10mm looking at the gap between the insulation and the terminal itself. Its 41 years old and i would wager if you were to give it a good pull it would come out of that lead earth clamp altogether. Wiggle it as you push and it would probably go back into the clamp, not exactly a good connection? I have seen old leads like that arc when the engine is turned over.
May i suggest you just replace it (or better still) the two with nice new ones and put some petroleum jelly or silicone grease on the battery terminals when you refit them as that would stop any corrosion building up in future.
Sure that would help your intermittent starting issue.

     
Logged
WestonE
Legendary Member
******
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1376


« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2021, 08:42:01 AM »

I agree with Hutch that those battery leads are far past their best. I remade mine with modern thin wall 25mm section red and black cable from Vehicle wiring products. I bought Durite battery terminals (eBay ) that take a ring connection but are lower profile. Between Pole Volt and Vehicle Wiring products you can buy all you need. If you want a cheaper crimp tool the hammer V type do a decent job. I invested in the hex crimps but have re-wired 2 cars so it was worth it for me.


Remember to wire brush the 8mm stud on the body where the -ve bolts and use some anti corrosion contact grease there and the terminals. 

It looks like you have a top quality battery so get a battery charger conditioner if you do not already own one. This is about the best there is   https://www.amazon.co.uk/CTEK-MXS-10-Automatic-Reconditions/dp/B005O8YG44/ref=asc_df_B005O8YG44/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=218093857332&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12295605999218957559&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006798&hvtargid=pla-381681873107&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

Avoid smaller one that are better suited to motor bike and cars with smaller battery's.

Eric
Logged
AJ_Spider
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 20

Beta Spider 2000 (1980)


« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2021, 03:43:05 PM »

Hi all,

Thanks for the advice, diagram and links on my queries about those wires and the dodgy leads. I will re-furb the leads asap and hopefully that will make a difference. It started okay again today, so all good at the moment (fingers crossed).

I am hoping to get down to the gathering in Devon on Saturday, so if any of you are there it will be good to chat in person. All of the advice is very much appreciated.

All the best,

Andrew
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!