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News: Meetameeta21 Oxfordshire 27th-29th August
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Author Topic: Replacement Engine project  (Read 1571 times)
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peteracs
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« on: January 14, 2021, 12:39:49 AM »

As I am on the home straight for getting my Spider back on the road, hopefully this spring, I have had it in my mind to rebuild an engine for it as the one it has currently is the original one it came with to me over 10 years ago (probably been in there for over 30 years at least) and I am assuming it is a standard 1585cc unit etc.

My thought process started on a replacement engine way back when I read the Darren Cooksey thread on modernising a FI engine and recently after a number of exchanged emails with Eric and discussion with Darren re what known options are sensible for my use, I think the following is my likely target. Note that I have no interest in track day use, just an interesting updated engine to use on the road which will be reliable and usable. I was also inspired after watching numerous US based tuners with modern ECUs and how controllable the tune of an engine can be, as opposed to the one size fits all of standard carbs.

Given I have never rebuilt an engine I initially thought to go in two stages, first with a dual carb setup and then move to FI, however looking at the costs of new carbs and the above mentioned lack of flexibility, I have for now decided to move straight to FI from day one. This means a bunch more work and mods to the car, but given I want to end up there, I might as well do it in one move, rather than two. As to costs it will be more expensive the FI route, but would be a lot more expensive to go the two stage route ultimately.

So onto spec.

I have a couple of both 1600 and 2l engines of unknown state, so any could be used as donors. One concern I did have was that my car has the original 2 vent bonnet, not the later one vent used on 2l, but given that this was an issue for the standard air filter and I will be using a custom arrangement, this should not be an issue. It appears I have little to lose and lots to gain by going with 2l. One issue a number of folk have is using a side draught carb/throttle body as the air intake is next to the radiator, so some games have to be played to get cold air in. Eric solved this using a relocated custom rad, however by going with a down draught dcnf style throttle bodies removes that issue and I can keep my standard rad position. Dual Dcnf manifolds are still available for this config to give the one port per cylinder config which is the ideal scenario.

I am also making use of a couple of GC's books, GC's forum and a Haynes Engine Management book by Dave Walker. The engine management book I have started reading and looks to have some interesting advice even for looking at tuning a standard engine, or at the very least understanding what is going on.

So onto the list of items I am looking to include (not complete, but gives you an idea)

2L block and crank
Modified head ideally with VX size valves
Cometic head gasket
Cast pistons
Uprated con rods
GC 3/A inlet cam
Standard 2L exhaust cam
Vernier Cam wheels
Baffled Sump
Updated water pump
Lightened flywheel
Integrale clutch
Dual DCNF inlet manifold
Dual dcnf throttle bodies
Webcon swirl pot/pump connected to original tank
Upgrade return fuel pipe to 8mm
4-2-1 exhaust manifold
Oil cooler

Gearbox - probably change diff ratio to improve cruising

I do not expect too many updates on this as very much background project for now, but will be looking to buy parts where I find them at a decent price.

I suspect my starting budget for the build is £4k, but never having done this before, I could be miles out...... hopefully the wife will understand!!

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 09:29:22 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 10:12:37 AM »

Hi Peter

I am happy to help you achieve an amazing result with a stealthy period look. As we have discussed finding skilled experienced people who know the chosen ECU and how to use their Rolling Road is essential. If in doubt ask the ECU supplier directly for their top 5 recommended. Shipping the car on a trailer for mapping to the right person is MUCH better than a local have a go hero. No ECUs (even the most expensive) will auto map from initial start up and start up maps are just to start the car and fix any oil/water leaks NOT drive it. Wide Band Lambda sensors tune and tweak the car as you drive if set up just like they do on some modern cars.  

Because of this the car will be on a trailer for initial ECU setup. The results are normally brilliant and you can get the car run in on the rollers before an oil and filter swap and power runs.

High Quality Electrical Crimping tools and waterproof connectors are your friends. Neither should be cheap and nasty.

I am glad to see you have no intention to use OE conrods in your build. They are just a huge false economy these days being a high stress component. Unfortunately along with used pistons frequently the cause of an early blow up on re-built engines.

Enjoy

Eric
NB The Haynes book is dated now and an obvious promo for Emerald (there are better options). However the installation hints and how to position the trigger wheel and sensor are worth it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 09:29:34 PM by peteracs » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2021, 11:29:41 AM »

Peter,

The work youíve done on your car so far is stunning, and I certainly understand that the direction projects follow is extremely personal, but I canít help feeling youíve now gone looking for some birch twigs with which to whip yourself!  

Why not build a nice standard engine to get the car on the road then develop one of your other engines to be the much more complex FI beast you desire? A standard engine can hold your removable items like baffled sump, 4-2-1 exhaust and oil cooler and would probably be both achievable by the Spring and affordable!

Everything boils down to time, cost and performance and with that in mind, I fear your aspirations for this engine project could easily set you back a year + and you probably need to allow at least double your engine budget.  Iíve been there!   At the end, of course, you should have a lovely Beta... but will it be ready for Beta50?    

Chris
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 09:29:44 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2021, 11:46:16 AM »

Hi Chris

Thanks for the wise words and they are pretty much my thoughts as it happens. The car currently, and for the rest of this year at least, will keep the 1600 standard engine which is running ok, yet to check the gearbox and clutch, waiting for some decent weather to get the suspension tightened up, test gearbox and clutch, align wheels etc. This engine project is just the follow on with no definite target timeframe in mind other than I do not intend to start it until late on in the year, or at least the parts I am going to do. I also do not underestimate the time it will take to complete the build and install, but I would like to get some use of the car before I start to hack it around.......! I shall keep the car intact until the engine is fully built and ready to be installed so that if that rolls on for another year I can keep using the car in the mean time.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 09:29:57 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2021, 12:36:53 PM »

Hi Peter,

Apologies, I should never have doubted but now I understand. You have an excellent plan!

Chris
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:08:00 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2021, 04:50:06 PM »

Hi Peter,

Agree with Chris's comments and glad that you seem to be following this approach - seems to make most sense.

Is your Spider a 1st series car?   Is it a second series 1600 (1585) engine or the earlier (1593 longer stroke/smaller bore) variant ?

An 1800 would be nice if you could find one to work with.

Regarding twin DCOEs then I'm sure that if you could find a reasonable used set of the right size and a similar good used (GC) inlet manifold / linkage etc from somewhere then you could set up pretty quickly and be able to recoup a significant part of outlay on hardware by selling on later.

Keeping fingers crossed for some better COVID news and some good spring/summer weather!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:07:46 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2021, 07:15:45 PM »

Definitely with you on Spring coming and the whole Covid thing settling down.

My 1600 is the S2 1585, and bits for 1800 are more difficult to find, having said that Mark is looking after an 1800 block for me....

However I think the 2l is the way to go as it is the engine that most folk who modify them will have used and hence there is more experience and uprated parts around.

On the dcnf v dcoe, yes the dcoe are saleable as are the dcnf, though not so many around of the dcnf I think. I really did not want to be messing around with the radiator if possible and absolute power is not a big issue. I think the effort to go FI directly will also be an interesting project and I may have had enough if I just go with carbs and never get to the FI which I think would be a shame. If I was doing this on a tight budget I would go the carb route for sure as the difference in cost is significant.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:07:36 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2021, 07:16:39 PM »

Hi Peter,

Apologies, I should never have doubted but now I understand. You have an excellent plan!

Chris

Hi Chris

No problem and thanks.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:07:25 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2021, 10:54:15 AM »

Peter, I may have an 1800 Fiat block. I'll message you.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:07:15 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 11:30:49 AM »

Hi Frank

The Fiat ones are different to the Lancia ones as I understand in that the mounting holes are different, but the internals are the same.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:07:03 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2021, 10:06:25 PM »

Hi Peter,
Sounds like a very nice project in the making.
My thoughts on the dcnf approach are, if my memory serves me, there isnít much room above the carbs (throttle bodies) for a decent air box or remote filter take off before you hit the bonnet.  Of course it can be done, but is it as good as a side draught installation? Can anyone confirm if my memory serves me on this or is it indeed picked in vino?
As to the side draught approach, you can push the radiator forward using a VX/i.e. rad for more space without having to go to full rad fabrication and retain a little o.e authenticity.

Just some food for thought.
Looking forward to the project thread.
Ian


« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:06:51 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2021, 10:14:55 PM »

Hi Ian

I think you are correct about space, I suspect the dcnf will be similar height to the standard carb, so my thoughts are a custom air box will be required with possibly a cone filter next to the current cold air intake. I still think the work involved with the side draft solution will be more overall.

I will get some dimensions of the Jenvey dcnf ones and just check before buying anything.

Thanks

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:06:41 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2021, 09:40:50 PM »

Hi Peter,

Sounds like a very interesting 'cunning plan' and acquiring the parts by stealth is something I've been doing for the last ten years or so and can recommend that approach. The adaptor plate for the engine stand came back from the platers yesterday, so I'll make a mock up of it in sturdy cardboard and send it to you if you PM me your address.

Graham
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:06:30 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2021, 09:29:02 PM »

First part bought other than the engines I already bought some time ago.

GC 3/A inlet camshaft from Gloria who inherited GCs business and is currently relocating it to Bedford where she lives.

I have also placed an order for a Mangoletsi dcnf inlet manifold, but delivery timeframe on that is very uncertain apparently.

In terms of tools just purchased a set of Moore and Wright micrometers and a low cost dial bore gauge. These are in anticipation of seeing how good the crank, exhaust cam and bores are on the engines I have.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 11:06:17 PM by peteracs » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2021, 09:00:05 AM »

Hi Peter always too late but just in case twin DCNF Manifold https://www.facebook.com/groups/34046697401/permalink/10159121550742402/

Eric
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2021, 11:30:18 AM »

Hi Eric

Thanks for the link. I will stick with the one I have ordered as hopefully will materialise and is a whole lot less expensive especially given the additional import charge chaos going on at the moment.

Peter
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2021, 11:28:51 AM »

One subject I had not thought of before, but have been reading and watching about engine rebuilding and wondered what to use as an engine assembly lube/grease. The conclusion I have is that a specialist grease or gel is likely to give the best protection, especially if the engine is stored a while before starting. So any input on this subject would be welcomed, also does the same apply for the gearbox/diff?

Peter

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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2021, 05:38:53 PM »

Hi Peter

Plenty of good engine oil well distributed. There are 2 exceptions worth considering if you have new cams then specific Cam lube just before start up NOT when building the engine unless it will be started within a month of building. The second is using some moly grease in the oil pump to encourage priming. Again if left for long term storage without turning over it can harden adding un wanted strain. I do not use Moly Grease preferring to fill the cam boxes, coat the cams and spin the engine on the starter to prime the oil system.

Eric
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2021, 08:37:36 PM »

Hi Eric

That is not what I expected you to say and appears to be in direct conflict with what I have read elsewhere.....

The general comment is do not use ordinary oil as it does not include enough Zinc and does not hang around on the bearings etc if stored, hence use a specific bearing lube (dissolvable in oil) if storing for a long time.

Others do say use a thicker oil than normal.

I can see the benefit of pre pressurising the oil system before trying to start it and would do that especially as fairly simple to do on this engine.

Peter

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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2021, 02:15:48 AM »

I did notice that the Project Binky chaps were using a lurid pink grease from a tube quite liberally when reassembling their Toyota engine.
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