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Author Topic: Top water rail to head seal  (Read 3304 times)
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Nigel
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« on: March 01, 2020, 02:49:24 PM »

Hi all,
The new seal that I got from Mark @ Betaboyz squeezed itself out of position,and leaked.

I measured the gap that needs to be sealed and its about 1mm [between the rail and head]
The new seal is around 2.8mm and is perhaps too thick?
I used hylomar in fitting. I'm now thinking that it may have been better to fit it dry
to stop it slip-sliding inwards.

I bow to your vast knowledge....

Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
mangocrazy
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2020, 09:02:02 PM »

I know that Guy Croft, when fitting an in-head thermostat at that junction, just beds the whole lot down on generous amounts of silicone sealant (but not enough to clog waterways). Having said that, the thermostat would probably take up the 1mm gap you spoke of, leaving the silicone to seal and irregularities.
Perhaps a copper or aluminium crush washer of a suitable size might be better?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2020, 09:13:26 PM »

Did a quick search, and this looks like it might do the job:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DealMux-Copper-Washer-Sealing-Fastener/dp/B072TWN73C
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Nigel
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2020, 08:40:04 PM »

My thanks Sir!

I measured the outer size needed and it's 53mm so that particular one you found would be too big.

I'm now,after reading your first reply,going to reuse the one that came out,
which is much broader,i.e. a smaller hole,and thinner, and use silicon sealer,as per GC.

We'll see what happens!
Best wishes,
Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
mangocrazy
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2020, 09:46:27 PM »

That's interesting - I happen to have a cylinder head that's been vapour blasted and sitting on the bench. I measured the orifice in the head where the top water rail bolts to, and the i.d. was 55mm. So is there more than one head/water rail specification? Italian cars - doncha love 'em...?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Nigel
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2020, 09:39:01 PM »

Ooops. I mis-measured.
I've just been out and re-checked, and it is indeed 55mm with a tiny bit to spare I think.

So i'm going to order that ring. I think it'll be better than rubber.
I'll just have to make sure I don't tighten it too much,but that may depend on how crushable it actually is.

Thanks again and sorry to mislead!

Nigel

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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
mangocrazy
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 08:25:25 PM »

Hi Nigel,

Have you road-tested the copper washer, and if so did it work? Interested to know as I will need to do the same at some point in the future.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Nigel
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2020, 09:40:17 PM »

Hi Nigel,

Have you road-tested the copper washer, and if so did it work? Interested to know as I will need to do the same at some point in the future.

Sorry Mr mango, but I haven't yet.
I ordered 3, but the original rubber is holding up for now......so, if you'd like to be the guineapig.....
PM your address and i'll pop one in the post,pronto.

Regards
Nigel
Logged

1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
mangocrazy
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Posts: 1037


« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2020, 09:43:00 PM »

It's OK Nigel, I ordered a couple at the same time as you did, so no problems. It will be a few months before I become the guinea pig. My rebuild is proceeding at a glacial pace...

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
mangocrazy
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Posts: 1037


« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2021, 06:39:28 PM »

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd add to the existing one. I've just undergone a trial fit of the top water rail using the 55mm x 48mm x 2mm copper crush washer and while it fits the orifice in the cylinder head perfectly, the 2mm depth means that it doesnt crush a great deal, if at all. If it had been 3mm depth it would be perfect, but the spigot clamps down fully without exerting much force on the washer. This could lead to leaks. I'm undecided whether to use 2 x washers or make up a washer from some 3mm thick gasket material I have.

I will report back...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Nigel
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United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 400



« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2021, 11:34:14 AM »

Graham,
I read somewhere recently that an 'O' ring has been used successfully.
I would imagine a 5mm might work, and would crush without shifting.

Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
mangocrazy
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United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1037


« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2021, 12:06:11 PM »

Hi Nigel,

In the end I made a gasket for the top rail from the 3mm thick material I bought and used red Wurth Special Silicone gasket paste as backup. It tightened down nicely and everything lined up correctly. Hopefully it should work, although it will be a while before I can put coolant in the system to test. The only problem with O-rings is if you over-tighten them they tend to twist out of shape and allow leaks to happen. Correct clamping force (i.e. not too much) is essential in my experience.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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