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Author Topic: New thermostat installation  (Read 3434 times)
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2020, 09:04:08 PM »

Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but wouldn't using the existing setup as fitted to carb engines (no in-head stat, standard branch off top water rail to OE stat) but with the VX takeoff to the head spigot near cylinder 4, do effectively the same job? You'd lose the ability to run a hot climate thermostat, but would benefit from consistent temperatures across the cylinder head water jacket.

Or am I missing something?

Yes that is an ideal factory setup. But as you say, no adjustability with different temp stats.
Thanks for that confirmation. So in an ideal world we'd be able to find a replacement for the OE stat housing that can be dismantled to change the thermostat element... ? I'd be surprised if something of that nature didn't exist, although I doubt that tracking it down would be simple. You might get lucky and find a cast item that fits the bill, but I suspect it's more likely that it would need to be machined from billet (and expensive).

I think they is nothing wrong with the factory layout and stat, I think it was Fiat that changed this as didn't early TC have in head stats? Why would they have moved to a more expensive layout with no benefit?
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WestonE
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2020, 09:30:11 AM »

They changed the layout for faster warm up lower emissions less engine damage from cars being thrashed before warm. BUT the temp in the OE stat is too high for a tuned car even with the 19 x 235 oil cooler that is essential on tuned cars. I will have no problem with the external set up and a cooler reliable thermostat. The VX/IE water rail bypass is staying I like my engines to keep working.

Cheers

Eric
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2020, 12:15:45 AM »

Does this look like it might fit the bill?

https://www.specialist-components.co.uk/index.php/shop/twinkam-16v-conversion/accessories/twin-kam-remote-thermostat.html

<Edit> Just realised that the flow and bypass ports in the housing above are in the wrong orientation/position. I think I'll give them a ring and see if they have anything suitable for Betas.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 12:24:22 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2020, 10:07:30 PM »

Does this look like it might fit the bill?

https://www.specialist-components.co.uk/index.php/shop/twinkam-16v-conversion/accessories/twin-kam-remote-thermostat.html

<Edit> Just realised that the flow and bypass ports in the housing above are in the wrong orientation/position. I think I'll give them a ring and see if they have anything suitable for Betas.

Used to use one of their housings on an MG ZT good quality, they made a few specially for the Rover75/MG ZT forum a few years back. I think it might do for what I'd want? Let me check the tech books
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2020, 10:31:48 PM »

I rang them up and spoke to a very pleasant lady about this query, and she suggested I drop them an email with some pictures and dimensions and they will see what they have available or what could be modified without too much trouble. So that's what I'll do.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
rossocorsa
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2020, 12:37:43 AM »

I rang them up and spoke to a very pleasant lady about this query, and she suggested I drop them an email with some pictures and dimensions and they will see what they have available or what could be modified without too much trouble. So that's what I'll do.

They used to do the rover one which was much the same as shown but without the bypass pipe, that would be ok if you have a standard top pipe with the bypass in place, you could maybe use the stat in the rubber top pipe to rad (assuming diameter s are the right size .....)  then hollow out the original stat to make it into a connector only (if the insides are easy enough to access)
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squiglyzigly
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« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2020, 04:59:24 PM »

Update on homemade stat housing in top pipe. (Similar in principle to the inline Rover stats discussed but this version has a small take off which I have ĎT-eedí into the expansion tank) this take off is necessary to allow a flow of water to the thermostat Ďbulbí along the top pipe or the hot water from the head may never get to the closed stat. Something to consider with off the shelf inline stats without a bypass/bleed. You could drill a bleed hole in the stat itself but I reckon that will slow warmup.
So,
Itís installed and fitted with 82C stat.
Engine started from cold with Ambient temp of 6 degrees.
Engine warmed up to just below mid point within 2 miles of very gentle driving (police car behind) and then sat there for 20 miles of normal to thrashed driving.
Couldnít of wished for a better first run.
Looking forward to summer so I can see if the results are the same, but if not, a 75C stat is waiting to go in.


* 663F019A-2871-4293-82BB-BB396206057B.jpeg (666.2 KB, 1512x1512 - viewed 215 times.)
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2020, 10:28:14 PM »

Excellent work, Ian. Very much liking the home-brewed stat housing - lots of options. I can't see from the photos, but have you retained the lower smaller outlet on the top water rail, or had it blanked off? I'm guessing the latter, as that is the outlet which feeds the thermostat on standard unmodified S2 Betas.

And is the bracing strut between the shock tops an over the counter purchase, or something you had fabricated? Something along those lines is on my wish-list.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
squiglyzigly
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2020, 10:30:26 AM »

Yes the smaller lower outlet has been blanked off although the top rail was originally a Strada 130tc/105tc regatta 100s assembly (canít remember when I saved it).

The strut brace is more or less off the shelf. Originally Peugeot 309 with minor mods to fit. I have modded it some more with a removable 6 inch section (not in shot) just above the timing belt to allow easy removal of timing belt cover. I like making things easy to inspect/maintain, canít stand unnecessarily removing unrelated components just to do a simple job. Thatís when things strip etc and a simple job becomes a pain.

Unless summer throws up some expected results with the inline thermostat mod, itís the only way to go for me now.

 RIP in-head stats.
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VX HPE (resto started Sept Ď21)
Beta Saloon 2.0l s2 1979 (completed July 2020)
Beta coupť VX (completed April 2017)
Aprilia RSVR 2002
Alfa 159 sportwagon jtd eco (slower than a courgette)
mangocrazy
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2021, 09:35:14 PM »

I was very impressed with Ian's (squiglyzigly) thermostat modification and vowed to copy it. It's only taken me a year and a bit, but here's my take on the mod that Ian has pioneered. The hardest bit was probably getting hold of Renault Clio/Megane/Scenic /Kangoo thermostat housings in aluminium. It seems that Renault have moved to plastic for these components, which I didn't really want. I'm sure that modern hard plastics will do a perfectly good job, but I just prefer metal.

I then acquired a standard Mini thermostat, but in the hot climate (74 degree C) version - part number GTS102. The 84 deg C (temperate climate) version is GTS104 and the 88 deg C (cold climate) version is GTS106. I got mine from Rimmer Bros (www.rimmerbros.com) who charged me a paltry £4.32 inc VAT for the privilege. These stats are fractionally larger than the Renault housing, but a few seconds with a flap wheel in an angle grinder soon encouraged it to fit snugly.

The lip on the Renault housing has a depth of 3.5 mm and the i.d. is 53.5mm, so I tracked down a suitable o-ring to fill the gap. I got a pair of Viton o-rings (you need two) from simplybearings for £6.47 delivered. They are actually a British Standard (BS 828) and measure 3.53 mm in cross section and 46.04 mm internal diameter. They serve a dual purpose of sealing the thermostat on both sides and stopping it flapping about loose in the housing.

Both housings (you need two) have a small relief port, one of which will need to be closed off. I removed the spigot on one of the housings and then had my local welders seal the port with some weld inside and out. If using plastic items I guess a hacksaw and some epoxy resin would work.

The last thing I needed was a gasket. I'm sure I could have tracked down the Renault part, but instead opted to make my own from some 1mm thick gasket material I had. On reflection, tracking down the Renault gasket would probably have been simpler. I haven't done final assembly of the unit yet (the bolts in the pics below are just finger tight, but when I do I shall probably use Threebond liquid gasket, as that has never yet failed me when being used on motorbikes. Again, probably overkill but I hate doing jobs twice.

So thanks again to Ian for the initial inspiration and here are the pictures.


* DSC_5273.JPG (370.72 KB, 1196x539 - viewed 117 times.)

* DSC_5274.JPG (349 KB, 1047x719 - viewed 119 times.)

* DSC_5269.JPG (314.63 KB, 1076x614 - viewed 118 times.)
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2021, 08:38:41 AM »

I am following this with interest. I currently have Nigel's Lada lower temp 3 way thermostat waiting to fit and try.

Eric   
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squiglyzigly
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« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2021, 02:53:14 PM »

I was very impressed with Ian's (squiglyzigly) thermostat modification and vowed to copy it. It's only taken me a year and a bit, but here's my take on the mod that Ian has pioneered. The hardest bit was probably getting hold of Renault Clio/Megane/Scenic /Kangoo thermostat housings in aluminium. It seems that Renault have moved to plastic for these components, which I didn't really want. I'm sure that modern hard plastics will do a perfectly good job, but I just prefer metal.

I then acquired a standard Mini thermostat, but in the hot climate (74 degree C) version - part number GTS102. The 84 deg C (temperate climate) version is GTS104 and the 88 deg C (cold climate) version is GTS106. I got mine from Rimmer Bros (www.rimmerbros.com) who charged me a paltry £4.32 inc VAT for the privilege. These stats are fractionally larger than the Renault housing, but a few seconds with a flap wheel in an angle grinder soon encouraged it to fit snugly.

The lip on the Renault housing has a depth of 3.5 mm and the i.d. is 53.5mm, so I tracked down a suitable o-ring to fill the gap. I got a pair of Viton o-rings (you need two) from simplybearings for £6.47 delivered. They are actually a British Standard (BS 828) and measure 3.53 mm in cross section and 46.04 mm internal diameter. They serve a dual purpose of sealing the thermostat on both sides and stopping it flapping about loose in the housing.

Both housings (you need two) have a small relief port, one of which will need to be closed off. I removed the spigot on one of the housings and then had my local welders seal the port with some weld inside and out. If using plastic items I guess a hacksaw and some epoxy resin would work.

The last thing I needed was a gasket. I'm sure I could have tracked down the Renault part, but instead opted to make my own from some 1mm thick gasket material I had. On reflection, tracking down the Renault gasket would probably have been simpler. I haven't done final assembly of the unit yet (the bolts in the pics below are just finger tight, but when I do I shall probably use Threebond liquid gasket, as that has never yet failed me when being used on motorbikes. Again, probably overkill but I hate doing jobs twice.

So thanks again to Ian for the initial inspiration and here are the pictures.


I hope your in-line thermostat mod works to your liking. Mine has covered around 1.5k miles now and for me itís been all positives and no negatives.
I like your detail of welding up the un-needed 2nd bleed pipe on one of the housings. I promised myself Iíd do the same if it works but so far Iíve not got around to doing it but itís on the list.
Iíve got a 75 degree stat with no bleed hole and it runs in the lower green most of the time only rising to mid green when idling and driving hard.
I did find a stat with a bleed hole warms up a little slower and itís apparent that warm water water does pass the bleed hole when cold and thus slows warm up slightly. But itís no biggie. I only discovered this when swapping different temp stats for testing purposes. You donít actually need a bleed hole in the stat because the housing self bleeds via the bleed pipe that you return to the expansion tank.

Your choice of hunting down a pair of alloy housings is a good choice in my opinion and I have done the same for the same reasons as you. There are many aftermarket plastic housings for sale for many cars and the reason for that is simple, the plastic ones distort and crack more often. A friend has had 2 plastic housing failures on 2 cars (a Ford and a Mazda) in the last 12 months.

Hope your test goes well

Ian

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VX HPE (resto started Sept Ď21)
Beta Saloon 2.0l s2 1979 (completed July 2020)
Beta coupť VX (completed April 2017)
Aprilia RSVR 2002
Alfa 159 sportwagon jtd eco (slower than a courgette)
mangocrazy
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« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2021, 11:01:40 PM »

Thanks, Ian. At my current glacial rate of progress it could be quite a while before it ever gets tested...

The stat I'm using does have a bleed hole with what can only be described as a tethered bung attached to the hole. It's a plastic ball, slightly larger than the bleed orifice, with a brass tag that holds it loosely in place. I'm very tempted to dispense with it and just seal the hole up with a rivet; as you say, the bleed hole in one of the housings will do that job perfectly well.

Glad that you agree with my choice of aluminium over plastic for the housings. I'll always prefer metal over plastic for stuff that deals with hot liquids.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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