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News: Meetameeta21 Oxfordshire 27th-29th August
https://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4521.0
 
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Author Topic: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb  (Read 16892 times)
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2021, 05:03:17 PM »

The water rail thing happened with my previous 1300 Coupe when I changed the water pump. All done in situ but I removed the flywheel end bolt to make fitting to the pump easier. Once the new pump was fitted I was never able to refit that bolt, like yours it was a good 10mm out.

Yes, I've fitted a 'new' (NOS) water pump that has the deeper Monte/VX impeller so that could well be it. I'll be trying out my spare back water rail, and may well resort to removing the bracket and either welding it back on in a better location or making up a new bracket and welding that on. At least with the engine out of the car and not in use I have slightly more options.

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought I was going mad for a minute...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
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« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2021, 05:44:19 PM »

I’ve had the same problem. My guess is the bends in the pipe change with age, maybe constant heating and cooling.

Ian
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2021, 10:17:09 PM »

Managed to track down some studs of the preferred sizes and fitted them to the head earlier today. I used green (strong) Loctite on the inlet studs and Loctite 272 (High temperature) on the exhaust studs. When I came to offer up the inlet manifold and gasket to the head a couple of things became apparent. Firstly, the gasket (which has each side labelled up by Stanwood for correct fitment) fouled the cambox base gasket in two places and the head gasket in two places. As neither cambox base or head gasket are amenable to modification, I got the Stanley knife and steel rule out and trimmed the inlet manifold gasket to suit.

Having overcome that little hurdle, I now encountered a more intractable one. The GC angled inlet manifold for twin DCOEs has machined areas around the stud holes, but on a couple of these places the machining does not extend far enough to allow a nut and washer to seat correctly. In one place there is no machining at all. Lastly on one of the top mounts there is simply no room to screw a nut onto the stud, so the wall of the relevant inlet tract will need relieving on the outside. Consequently I rang up Stanwood Engineering (who had originally done the machining work on the manifold for GC, back in the day) prior to returning the manifold for them to do the necessary fettling.

I'll wait and see how things transpire, but I'd be loath to pay for their time fixing these issues as they were the people entrusted by Guy to do the machining work in the first place. With Guy's unfortunate demise I guess lines of responsibility become blurred, but hopefully Stanwood will do the right thing anyway.

No-one ever said this was going to be easy...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2021, 08:44:21 AM »

Hi Graham

You will not like this but. Use cap head bolts to secure the GC inlet manifold with snor washers and plain washers. Make sure the inlet manifold gasket does not restrict the flow from manifold to port. If it does it will need to be relived with a Dremel sanding drum. Or you replace the gasket with top quality RTV sealant thin film. GC used the Wurth product.

I will listen for the scream.

Eric
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »

Hi Eric,

Not so much of a scream, just the usual expletive... I left the inlet manifold with Stanwood, so will see what they can bring to the table. My intention was to use Aerotight nuts on both inlet and exhaust manifolds, as I recall that back in the day whem my Spider was a daily driver, the exhaust manifold nuts would loosen off with monotonous regularity. Is there a particular reason why you favour cap head bolts over studs and Aerotight nuts? Or do you regard cap head bolts and Schnorr (spelling?) washers as superior?

I must admit that the prospect of removing studs held in with green Loctite does not fill me with deep joy. They will need some serious heat applied to permit removal.

Stanwood have carefully matched the head to manifold, to the point of matching the inlet gasket and indicating which side of the gasket faces the head, and which side faces the manifold. Visual inspection confirms everything lines up just so.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2021, 07:11:25 PM »

Hi Graham

The reason for the cap heads is simply clearance to the casting. The Snor washers are just a better locking washer and they are compact.

Eric

It sounds like Stanwoods have done a neat job.
 
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2021, 12:48:33 PM »

Hi Graham

The reason for the cap heads is simply clearance to the casting. The Snor washers are just a better locking washer and they are compact.

Eric

It sounds like Stanwoods have done a neat job.
 

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the confirmation. I'll see how the manifold fits when I get it back from Stanwoods. If there are still clearance problems I'll use cap head bolts and snor washers on the offending fixing points and leave the rest as studs. Yes, I'm pleased with all the work Stanwood have done for me; it's of a uniformly high standard. I know that GC trusted them with a lot of his work, which tells you all you need to know.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
mangocrazy
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« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2021, 03:47:35 PM »

Yesterday I verified that my spare (and rather ropey) back water rail had exactly the same problem as the 'best' one, so the good one will go back to Firma-Chrome to have the electroless nickel plating chemically stripped, then I'll remove the weld holding the bracket to the pipe (as gently as I can) and see if moving the bracket will allow it to fit. I'm not very happy leaving it bolted up at one end and flapping about at the other unless it's absolutely necessary.

I'm pretty sure now that it was fitment of the SKF branded water pump that caused the pipe not to line up. It was the Monte/VX style pump with deeper impeller, so maybe that had something to do with it?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2021, 04:21:17 PM »

Yesterday I verified that my spare (and rather ropey) back water rail had exactly the same problem as the 'best' one, so the good one will go back to Firma-Chrome to have the electroless nickel plating chemically stripped, then I'll remove the weld holding the bracket to the pipe (as gently as I can) and see if moving the bracket will allow it to fit. I'm not very happy leaving it bolted up at one end and flapping about at the other unless it's absolutely necessary.

I'm pretty sure now that it was fitment of the SKF branded water pump that caused the pipe not to line up. It was the Monte/VX style pump with deeper impeller, so maybe that had something to do with it?

Interestingly I had the same problem, I ordered a stainless steel bottom coolant pipe and it wouldn't fit! I would suggest you need a VX one. The supplier of the pipe made me a new one which JUST fits.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2021, 10:10:10 PM »

Do you have a supplier for a stainless VX back water rail? That would be the best of all worlds, I think...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2021, 11:11:39 PM »

Do you have a supplier for a stainless VX back water rail? That would be the best of all worlds, I think...
Well kind of yes but then again no...... He is in Spain and a totally honest and good guy I think but it is rather cottage industry so I am slightly reluctant to recommend purely as it depends upon your expectations. He is also very slow but didn't expect payment until the goods were ready. It's all a long story. You are always welcome to call and have a look at mine and see what you think.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2021, 03:10:39 PM »

That's OK. I think that once I've relocated the fixing bracket/tab further along the pipe that it should be fine. But I'll bear your man in Spain in mind for future reference.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2021, 04:03:29 PM »

This does all rather the raise the question of subtle variations between types and models, the first pipe the Spanish guy sent wouldn't fit at all, I still don't really know if it was an error or if VX pipes are ever so slightly different. The VX does only have one outlet on the offside compared to most but otherwise looks similar but the first one I was sent wouldn't reach around the end of the block. The new one he has sent is much better but still very tight. I also wonder if the crankcase end covers vary in thickness as this is where it fouls?
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2021, 07:59:52 PM »

Like you say, that is worrying. If it wouldn't even reach around the block that's a serious mismatch in the order of centimetres, not just a couple of mm. I'm reasonably confident that once the bracket has been removed from my pipe that it will bolt up square to the water pump flange and there will be clearance between pipe and block. I may have to fab a new bracket, but that's not the end of the world.

What does bother me is if we ever got round to doing a group buy on top and back water rails, how would we arrive at a specification that fits all permutations? At some point we may be forced into doing this, as the supply of sound water rails is getting scarce.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2021, 11:11:59 PM »

Hi Graham

I would think on the rear one that having it slightly too long is infinitely better than too short as a washer or two could be used to take up the gap.

Peter
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2021, 11:42:40 PM »

Like you say, that is worrying. If it wouldn't even reach around the block that's a serious mismatch in the order of centimetres, not just a couple of mm. I'm reasonably confident that once the bracket has been removed from my pipe that it will bolt up square to the water pump flange and there will be clearance between pipe and block. I may have to fab a new bracket, but that's not the end of the world.

What does bother me is if we ever got round to doing a group buy on top and back water rails, how would we arrive at a specification that fits all permutations? At some point we may be forced into doing this, as the supply of sound water rails is getting scarce.

It's actually a matter of mm not cm! It's deceptively precise to get that pipe right not much room for error. Where it sweeps around the block there is very little margin at all it only needs to be at slightly the wrong angle or turning a few mm too early and it will foul on the crankcase cover before it can fully go around the block.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2021, 11:40:11 AM »

Yes, definitely a few mm longer would be the best option, Peter. And I know what you mean - a couple of mm where the pipe sweeps round the block translates to a bigger difference by the time you get to the bracket. If I still have problems with the bracket removed I'll look at having a (very) short section of pipe welded in to give the required length.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2021, 08:07:48 PM »

This will sound like a bodge, but would it be feasible to introduce
a rubber hose coupling somewhere along its run to offer the flexibility needed?

I realise the exhaust is nearby, so positioning is a factor. maybe an additional heat shield?
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
mangocrazy
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« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2021, 08:27:23 PM »

This will sound like a bodge, but would it be feasible to introduce
a rubber hose coupling somewhere along its run to offer the flexibility needed?

I realise the exhaust is nearby, so positioning is a factor. maybe an additional heat shield?

Hi Nigel,

I had considered that, and I don't think it counts as a bodge. You would need to run a bead of weld round the ends of the pipe sections to be joined to assist with securing pipe clamps, and it would introduce a degree of flexibility in positioning that would be welcome. Certainly an option if Plan A doesn't work out.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2021, 08:51:28 PM »

Not sure that would help as you then only have one support for each pipe. The heat from the exhaust also adds to the complication.

Peter
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