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Author Topic: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb  (Read 20372 times)
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peteracs
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« Reply #140 on: November 24, 2021, 01:16:32 PM »

Hi Graham

Will see how they go.

Thanks

Peter
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« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2021, 06:51:29 PM »

Some further progress today, followed by the inevitable shuddering halt. The studs I ordered from WDS components arrived a while back and one was duly fitted to the water pump flange as a replacement for the one that sheared. It's had a liberal coating of green Loctite and I'll leave it overnight before re-fixing the back water rail.

The gearbox that Day & White refurbished just before Covid hit in January 2020 had been moved from my (dry) shed and now lives in the same room as the engine. When dragging the box containig the gearbox across the floor it dawned on me that I might be able to lift it single-handedly onto the deck of the engine dolly, without having to call for assistance. And so it proved. I'm not saying it was easy but I managed it without putting my back (or anything else) out.

Next step was to fit the clutch release bearing, actuator arm and top hat sleeve. Load bearing bits were lubed and then I tried fitting it all together. It did all go together (sort of), but the pegs on the clutch release bearing are half in/half out of the actuating arms (see pic). Surely this can't be right? (And don't call me Shirley...) Do I need to wiggle and waggle things some more so that it seats properly? Have I missed a trick here?

I compared the new clutch release bearing with the manky old one that dropped out of my old bellhousing, and they are dimensionally identical in all details. Suggestions on a postcard...

Here come the obligatory pictures.



* DSCF2732.JPG (281.01 KB, 990x749 - viewed 91 times.)

* DSCF2727.JPG (227.2 KB, 966x619 - viewed 85 times.)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 06:53:02 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
SanRemo78
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« Reply #142 on: December 08, 2021, 08:25:23 PM »

Release bearing is on the wrong way round Shirley.... Take it out, put the face that's on the gearbox side currently and refit it with that face on the clutch side.
Guy
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 08:28:05 PM by SanRemo78 » Logged

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« Reply #143 on: December 08, 2021, 08:52:39 PM »

I guess you mean something like this, then? (D'uh - I feel so stupid...)



* DSCF2741.JPG (263.97 KB, 988x635 - viewed 92 times.)
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #144 on: December 08, 2021, 08:56:06 PM »

That's better Shirley! Beats bolting it back together and installing it all only to find that there's no drive (or horrible noises off).

I note a broken casting on the upper pivot point though. Not sure how this will affect operation long term but I'm guessing Lancia put it there for a reason?

Guy
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Hawk HF3000 - Square Arch Stratos Replica - owned since 1988.
Hawk HF 3000 - Round Arch Stratos Replica - Under construction.
Alfa Romeo 159 T1 2.4 Q4 Sportwagon - Believed one of 4 in UK.
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« Reply #145 on: December 08, 2021, 09:02:15 PM »

I must admit I hadn't noticed that . I'll compare with the box that's currently sitting on my cellar floor. I'm surprised that Day & White didn't pick up on that.

I trust you noticed that I've taken your advice regarding de-headed bolts to aid gearbox fitting...?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #146 on: December 08, 2021, 09:24:19 PM »

Yup. It's a tip I got from someone on the Stratos forum for the Alfa 164 boxes (a little heavier) but it really does help with aligning everything. If the main shaft doesn't slide in easily it make turning it simpler to get it in line (in gear and hold one output flange whilst rotating the other and pushing the box on with your third hand....

And if you feel like deleting the incriminating posts I'll delete the replies. Maybe. Grin Grin Grin
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Hawk HF3000 - Square Arch Stratos Replica - owned since 1988.
Hawk HF 3000 - Round Arch Stratos Replica - Under construction.
Alfa Romeo 159 T1 2.4 Q4 Sportwagon - Believed one of 4 in UK.
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« Reply #147 on: December 08, 2021, 09:39:33 PM »

Yup. It's a tip I got from someone on the Stratos forum for the Alfa 164 boxes (a little heavier) but it really does help with aligning everything. If the main shaft doesn't slide in easily it make turning it simpler to get it in line (in gear and hold one output flange whilst rotating the other and pushing the box on with your third hand....

And if you feel like deleting the incriminating posts I'll delete the replies. Maybe. Grin Grin Grin

Nah - it was a learning experience and someone else may benefit from it. In my defence, I'e assembled dozens of wet (and dry) multiplate motorcycle clutches, but never a car one before. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it... Cheesy

Looking more closely at the 'broken' casting, the edges are very square and with no crystalline bits as you'd expect from a break. From what I can make out of the other box I have, that is the same.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 09:41:51 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Nigel
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« Reply #148 on: December 09, 2021, 12:15:44 AM »

Hi Graham,
That casting is broken.
However, the bush is still supported by the outside hole, so I'd continue
with the assembly. 
I'm very surprised it wasn't noted/repaired by the rebuilders, but maybe they
considered it OK.

When I fitted a new bush during the summer, I found the new part supplied was too big and
had to file it down to fit. That casting is easily broken by trying to fit an oversized bush.
That must have happened sometime.

Rgds, Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
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« Reply #149 on: December 09, 2021, 01:59:31 AM »

Thanks Nigel, that was basically my conclusion as well.  The lower part of the casting with the section missing still covers an arc greater than 180 degrees (probably 210-220 degrees) so there is still some support. I'm fitting a brand new top hat bush, which is a nice snug fit in the outer casing and also has the important locating tab to stop it rotating. It would be better if the bush was fully supported, but I don't regard it as a reason to panic and stop the build.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #150 on: December 09, 2021, 08:41:32 AM »

Hi Graham

An easy mistake with no reference pictures or manual. I would swap the spline grease for a small amount of copper slip or similar very high melt point grease. Clean off with brake cleaner and tooth brush.
This is because you do not want low melting point grease spraying onto your nice new clutch facings!

Enjoy

Eric
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« Reply #151 on: December 09, 2021, 11:38:09 AM »

Hi Graham

An easy mistake with no reference pictures or manual. I would swap the spline grease for a small amount of copper slip or similar very high melt point grease. Clean off with brake cleaner and tooth brush.
This is because you do not want low melting point grease spraying onto your nice new clutch facings!

Enjoy

Eric

Thanks Eric. That makes good sense. It's not there to lubricate as such, just as an anti-seize precaution. I'll dig out the trusty Wurth CU800 copper paste and do as you suggest.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #152 on: December 09, 2021, 05:01:11 PM »

Success! The gearbox and engine are now clamped up together, with 60 lb/ft of torque holding them together (see picture #1). It would have been impossible without Guy's excellent little trick, and even then it took 2 of us and a fair bit of huffing and puffing to get it all together.

Having assembled the two components I then had to partially dissassemble the two and separate them by about 10mm as I realised that the two top allen bolts in picture #2 would not allow the gearbox to be fully tightened to the engine. When Stanwood assembled the block they had used a plain washer and a spring washer to fix the end plate to the block. The extra thickness of a plain washer was enough to keep the mating faces of bell housing and motor apart. Picture #2 shows the very small amount of clearance left after the plain washer was removed and the gearbox fully bolted up. You can just slide a 0.4mm feeler gauge between the allen bolt and bell housing, it's that tight. Very glad I spotted that - it could have had unpleasant repercussions if I hadn't.

Next thing I tried was offering the Auto Ricambi starter motor up for a trial fit, and again things weren't entirely straightforward. The middle mounting point has a dowel fitted in the bell housing, and no corresponding recess in the starter motor mounting flange. I tentatively tried to remove the dowel, but it's fastened good and proper. So the starter motor flange will need a recess machining to cater for the dowel. It should be possible with the flange fitted to the starter, but if the flange can be removed without too much difficulty, that would probably be the preferred option. Pictures 3 and 4 illustrate the problem.

Despite the annoyance of the starter motor fitting, I'm still well pleased with the day's work. Some genuine progress, I think.



* DSCF2755.JPG (345.03 KB, 946x914 - viewed 82 times.)

* DSCF2742.JPG (259.33 KB, 1000x489 - viewed 81 times.)

* DSCF2748.JPG (289.89 KB, 783x928 - viewed 82 times.)

* DSCF2752.JPG (267.98 KB, 780x976 - viewed 81 times.)
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #153 on: December 09, 2021, 05:30:47 PM »

Well done Graham

Those water jacket plate bolts should have been hex head to give the clearance which is why you had the gotcha. I am fairly sure the WOSP starters come with the dowel recess machined. I will have a look. You can probably do it yourself with the plate removed your pillar drill and care.

Eric 
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« Reply #154 on: December 09, 2021, 06:30:32 PM »

Hi,
My WOSP unit indeed had the dowel recess in the centre hole which on mine was untapped.
That bolt normally has a nut on the starter side.

Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
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« Reply #155 on: December 09, 2021, 07:37:56 PM »

Thanks Eric, Nigel. There are some differences between the Auto Ricambi and WOSP starter motors then. The AR item has the centre mounting point threaded and the body of the starter partially covers the end of the thread hole, so it wouldn't be possible to use a nut to secure. I'll post a picture in a while.

I'm reasonably confident of machining the dowel recess on the flange using my pillar drill. I can centre a drill bit on the threaded hole before switching to a 12mm end mill. And I can also set the depth stop to avoid removing too much material. I might even go as far as removing the offending piece of the casting partially blocking the thread hole if I'm feeling really brave.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 07:47:54 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #156 on: December 10, 2021, 09:51:49 AM »

Hi Graham

Before fitting the starter check the throw of the pinion will see it fully engaged with the ring gear. A steel rule will do. Some adapters are too thick. Also if it goes too far it will foul the bell housing.

Eric   
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« Reply #157 on: December 10, 2021, 11:24:59 AM »

Hi Graham

Before fitting the starter check the throw of the pinion will see it fully engaged with the ring gear. A steel rule will do. Some adapters are too thick. Also if it goes too far it will foul the bell housing.

Eric  

Cheers Eric, food for thought. Is it possible to manually pull the pinion out to measure its throw? Or do I need to test energise the starter motor on the bench to measure the throw of the pinion?

I remember Guy Croft testing one of these starter motors and giving it a 5 star triple-A rating, and vowing he'd never use anything else again, but when he tested it, it was on a Fiat engine/gearbox. However the unit was specifically listed as suitable for Lancia Beta 2 litre engines from 1978-1983, so I think it should be OK.

Graham


* AR_starter.JPG (41.44 KB, 1317x373 - viewed 61 times.)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 11:26:38 AM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #158 on: December 10, 2021, 02:23:33 PM »

Hi Eric,

Just answered my own question - the pinion can be pulled out manually without difficulty, so I'll start taking measurements.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #159 on: December 10, 2021, 08:49:18 PM »

I've been in email contact with Auto Ricambi and spoke to Ramzi, one of the guys running AR. He was unaware (or had forgotten) the presence of the dowel, as their main business is with Fiats and the cars of that era were predominantly RWD and longitudinal engine/gearbox. By the sound of it that dowel is not present on Fiat DOHC boxes. His view was that it would be preferable to remove the dowel. I agree with that, but I wish it was as simple as that.

My initial foray in removing the dowel indicated it was in good and tight. I am not prepared to split the engine and gearbox again so any removal work will need to take place externally. My current plan involves trying to find a drift that just fits inside the fastener tunnel, but is wide enough to drive the dowel out (the dowel has a fractionally smaller i.d. than the casting hole). Assuming I can find something of this size, then I'll heat the casting in that area to get the aluminium to expand and (hopefully) release its grip on the dowel, then drive it out.

It sounds easy expressed like that, but I doubt the reality will be. As a last resort I'll remove the flange from the starter but it is bolted on fearsomely tightly and I'm wary of the damage I might do disassembling it. It's only held on by 2 x M5 cap head bolts, but my God are they torqued up tight. Loctite may also be involved, of course.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 01:15:41 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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