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Author Topic: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb  (Read 16247 times)
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frankxhv773t
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« Reply #100 on: May 24, 2021, 11:37:58 AM »

Getting a good weld needs practice and plenty of it. Before doing a job I get up to speed on some scrap steel of the same thickness I am going to work on. With MIG I think paying for good equipment makes a lot of difference.
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« Reply #101 on: May 24, 2021, 02:47:46 PM »

I am very Please with my recent R Tech 180 inverter MIG. It needs less skill from me. Also have an argon gas mix is far better than just CO2.

Eric
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frankxhv773t
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« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2021, 08:25:18 PM »

I used CO2 Argon mix. Finding a supplier where you don't have to rent the bottles makes it more cost effective if you only weld occasionally.
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1995 Dedra 2.0 16v SW
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1977 Beta Spider 1.6
1962 Flaminia Berlina 2.5
mangocrazy
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« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2021, 08:48:15 PM »

This thread has energised me to restart converting my Clarke 160TM to a Euro torch. I removed the old (and rather rubbish) Clarke OE torch so I can start doing the work to fit the new torch. I agree that it's the gas bottle rental that kills you when doing hobby welding. It's only infrequent use and the rental costs mount up very quickly. Thankfully there is a supplier near me that doesn't charge the normal monthly or yearly rental, just a five year usage along with the fill price to start with, then just a refill price after that. CO2/Argon mix works out at 50 per 5 year usage, then 21 for a refill of a 10 litre bottle. For a 24 litre bottle it's 75 and 40 respectively. Bigger bottles are available.

I've heard very good things about the R-Tech range, but at present I think I just need to learn how to stick metal together. Once I'm proficient I could well be in the market for something like that.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
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2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
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« Reply #104 on: May 25, 2021, 07:59:23 AM »

After years of hauling the welder and gas bottle about I finally got my kit onto a welding trolley allowing a mid size gas bottle and a lot less hassle when you want to use it. I found replacing the hopeless gas bottle chains with webbing straps and using more straps to secure the welder to the trolley worked nicely. This was after years of using a much overhauled secondhand Clarke 150TE MIG. The R Tech Inverter MIG is lighter and genuinely superior without the crazy cost of Pro gear.

I also bought a Nomad portable welding bench and clamps. Sort of a Workmate for welding. The metal table means less struggling to fit the earth return to the work piece. Add TIG gloves in place of the standard thick items and fine control is easier.

Credit to Stuart for the idea on the R Tech MIG.

Eric
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #105 on: May 25, 2021, 10:30:01 AM »

Definitely agree on the TIG welding gloves, Eric. They are a major improvement over, well, anything.  I'll take your advice on securing gas bottles once I finally sign up for some CO2/Argon mix. What bottle size are you using? I'm not exactly sure how big (size wise) 10 litre and 24 litre gas bottles will be. Shape is also a consideration. Short and dumpy would be greatly preferrred to tall and thin.

I'll also check out the Nomad portable welding bench. Doies anyone use either air fed welding masks or other PPE to avoid breathing in welding fumes?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
frankxhv773t
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« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2021, 08:23:28 PM »

There are plenty of places now that do rent free gas bottles. You pay a deposit for the bottle and keep it as long as you like. Theoretically you get your deposit back if you give up welding but since going gasless my son has kidnapped my gas bottle. I'm not sure I'll see it again.

I too have moved to TIG gloves and now wouldn't use anything else.
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1995 Dedra 2.0 16v SW
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1977 Beta Spider 1.6
1962 Flaminia Berlina 2.5
mangocrazy
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« Reply #107 on: June 15, 2021, 06:21:32 PM »

The GC angled  manifold for use with block-mounted distributor was collected from Stanwood Engineering after they 'fettled' it and after enlarging some of the stud holes it was bolted up to the head, albeit begrudgingly. It's a nightmare trying to get all the nuts bolted up and some of the nuts require the manifold to be 10-15mm away from the head in order to get the threads started; all due to the angled intake tracts. But it's on now, and as consistently tight as I can manage, given that it's impossible to get a torque wrench (or even a socket) on 5 out of the 6 nuts. It's pretty much open-ended spanners all the way. Are slim or specially angled spanners (or both) available for such an application?

Photos will be provided in due course.

The next part of the 3D jigsaw puzzle that is my 2 liitre engine is the dipstick and how it's mounted. I suspect that the dipstick holding bracket from this engine has been snaffled for use on the i.e. 2 litre engine that I exchanged for the original carbed motor. Certainly the dipstick bracket I have stands no chance of fitting as it stands. I presume that dipstick mounting/positioning changed between the S2FL model and the later S3 injected models. Can anyone corroborate or deny this?

I can feel another 'parts wanted' ad coming on...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2021, 07:33:41 AM »

Would a wrench and extension bar with crowfoot spanner fittings work on your manifold? It didn't on my exhaust downpipe TBH.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2021, 09:16:57 AM »

Would a wrench and extension bar with crowfoot spanner fittings work on your manifold? It didn't on my exhaust downpipe TBH.
The kind of thing that plumbers use to fit taps in awkward locations you mean? That's certainly worth looking into. Thanks.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PM »

Hi Graham

I used cap heads on the GC Manifold because you can get ball head allen keys beating the access challenge. I can remember bending the dip stick outer tube to get it past the manifold when using the GC twin 45 manifold. The Beta uses a rubber top hat seal that must be keep pressed into the block whilst the Monte uses an olive style locking collar.

Eric   
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2021, 06:53:44 PM »

Hi Graham

I used cap heads on the GC Manifold because you can get ball head allen keys beating the access challenge. I can remember bending the dip stick outer tube to get it past the manifold when using the GC twin 45 manifold. The Beta uses a rubber top hat seal that must be keep pressed into the block whilst the Monte uses an olive style locking collar.

Eric   
Yes, I did consider using cap heads but (unwisely) thought that studs would be a better solution. I've Loctited the studs in, as well so I suspect I will ave to live with my decision. They are done up acceptably tight and I've used stainless Aerotight nuts and wave washers, so hopefully they should stay fastened. I may try a crowfoot socket to try and nip them up a tad further.

I'm not sure whether the dip stick outer tube I have is the correct one for a carbed model. It doesn't seem to fit whichever way I angle it.  Can you tell from the photo if I have the correct one? I suspect the one that would be a better fit is in France, attached to the i.e. block. I guess I need to unpack the Weber carb(s) and fit them to the manifold to see what actual leeway I have in positioning.



* DSC_5518.JPG (208.4 KB, 861x553 - viewed 95 times.)
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Nigel
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« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2021, 07:47:06 PM »

Graham,
My dipstick tube looks the same as yours but I have a spacer between the bracket and the bolt.
Spacer looks to be just over an inch long.

Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Silver..turning to Grey Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
mangocrazy
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« Reply #113 on: June 16, 2021, 08:49:20 PM »

Thanks Nigel,  I was wondering whether a spacer would need to be involved. I was also wondering whether the dipstick tube could be rerouted into the void in the manifold between cylinders 1 and 2 as that is effectively dead space.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
mangocrazy
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« Reply #114 on: June 17, 2021, 11:56:53 AM »

After some more fitting and removing parts, it has become apparent that:

1) The GC manifold will require further 'easing' at key points on the top of the carb flanges to allow my (Spanish made) Weber DCOE 45s to fit. The lowered middle section between chokes needs cutting back by 5-10mm each side. I'll be charitable and suggest that the manfold was designed around the Original Italian Webers...

2) Clearance on the Webers to fit bolts to attach the carb to the manifold is extremely limited - no more than 20mm. Given that both the Weber flange and manifold flange are around 11mm deep each, this could be problematic. I've ordered some low head cap screws in 20 and 25mm lengths (M8 x 1.25) and we will see what transpires. More 'fettling', I suspect.

3) Until I can get the above points resolved it's difficult to know what space I have to play with for the dipstick sleeve. I suspect it may come down to making a one-off in thin wall steel or aluminium tube. I hope the original can be persuaded to fit, but there has to be a Plan B.

4) Plan C would be to ditch the distributor altogether and free up valuable space in that area by following Gerard's example and going digital. I'll be investigating further in the next few days. <edit> I've just realised that the Aldon Amethyst still needs the distributor (with advance locked) as a trigger for the ignition unit, so does nothing for my space issues. Plan C has been discarded for the present...
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 04:20:16 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #115 on: June 17, 2021, 12:16:13 PM »

Hi Graham

The carbs go on stubs fitted to the manifolds with Thackery spring washers or rubber cup washer and vibration O ring plates between carbs and manifold. This assembly is to stop vibration turning the fuel in the float chambers to froth which is better in a Cappuccino than carbs.
I remember relieving the manifold for the balance link on the excellent Weber Throttle Linkage and for the distributor.

Look in GCs books carefully and you will see the anti vibration plates with bonded O rings.

Eric
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2021, 04:08:38 PM »

Thanks for that Eric. I do have the Misab flanges with bonded nitrile o-ring inserts, but I suspect the rest of the kit (studs, nyloc nuts, and rubber isolator washers) will be in the other carb box I didn't open. What sort of stand-off between manifold and carb body does this provide (if you can remember)? If I don't need to hack the manifold about I really would be happier not to. I suspect that even with the rubber stand-offs, some material will need to be removed. I've trawled through both of Guy's books, but all I can see are photos of the DCOE mounting kit.

The front cover of his first book has a pair of DCOEs fitted to one of his manifolds, but the extra offset provided by the Misab/rubber isolators only gives about 2-3mm overall.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
mangocrazy
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« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2021, 06:47:42 PM »

Had a chance to do some more trial fitment of the carbs onto the manifold today. First thing that was immediately apparent was that the supplied studs are imperial size - a mixture of coarse and fine threads on the same stud. GC's Beta manifold is resolutely metric - M8 x 1.25. So new studs will be required. I've emailed Anthony at Fast Road Cars (suppliers of my Webers) asking if I can swap the imperial studs for M8 ones, and also asking if he would swap the supplied 155 air corrector jets for 170s (GC's recommendation for an engine in my state of tune). All the other mounting parts (rubbers, cup washers, T-piece etc. ) are all present and correct.

I'm also pretty certain that my chosen method of resolving the dipstick tube clash with the manifold will be to fabricate a new one, angled such that it protrudes between the manifold inlet tracts of cylinders 1 and 2. It requires less of a bend than the OE one and frees up a tiny bit of space in the congested manifold/distributor area. All I have to do now is to acquire some tubing of the correct size(s) and an 8mm bending spring. And the correct size washer to act as a depth stop. And make up a mounting bracket. And get it all welded up. And then plated.

I'm opening a book on how long all this will take...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
mangocrazy
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« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2021, 07:49:58 PM »

Hi Graham

I remember relieving the manifold for the balance link on the excellent Weber Throttle Linkage and for the distributor.

Calling on your expertise and experience again, Eric. I've looked on both Fast Road Cars and Eurocarb web sites and they list a bewildering range of linkages for DCOE Webers. I know I want a top-mounting kit, but which one? What are the pros and cons of the various options? Do I go for single or double cable (my preference would be for single, if only for simplicity's sake)? I could ask the web site owners, but would prefer an unbiased and 'been there and done it' point of view...

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2021, 10:10:53 AM »

Hi Graham

The best I have used is the Weber made linkage complete with the balance link arms that are essential. NEVER mix levers from another kit if you want smooth precise control. A single cable is fine. If you buy the dual cable linkage you get a spare.
You will need to adapt the top of the throttle pedal to take the cable pull and secure block. In an ideal world this would pivot like the original but actually securing it with the block and grub screw works because it bends in a small arc in use.

Eric

Never fit a linkage to or springs to the extreme ends of the carb spindles. The twist caused will be enough to ruin your chances of balancing the carbs.
If you want more springs add the them to the pedal.
Make sure you get full throttle and have a pedal stop at the right height to not strain and break the cable.   
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