Lancia Beta Forum

Hello all,
I have now received a Coupe VX fuel tank, thanks to Mark at BetaBoyz.

A few questions come to mind in order to achieve the best compromises between the various types
and requirements.
 
There are 2 breather pipes, one is 8mm, the other 13mm. They both meet inside at the same place
on the top surface and are simply open-ended. Is one enough, and if so, which size?

There are two swirl pots visible, one inside the other. Is one enough? Perhaps the larger one is there to act as a
baffle? There are no visible baffles elsewhere. I propose to have a couple of baffles fitted.

The return pipe from the engine [8mm] feeds into the smaller of the two visible swirl pots.
Does it need to go into the swirl pot?

The fuel pickup is 13mm and draws from the centre of the small swirl pop, via an unserviceable mesh filter.
I propose to eliminate the mesh, and assume external filters will suffice.

The filler inlet [46mm] on the Coupe is a long swan-neck with a stiffening brace. I propose to delete the long neck
and provide a short, say 50mm, stub to which any hose arrangement can be fitted.

The fuel gauge sender unit mounting is set below the top surface by about 30mm. Should this be maintained?

There will be more questions, but this will do for now!
Couple of photos attached for reference.
Your input will be valued. Please add anything i've missed!

Regards, Nigel

Hi Nigel

As to the fuel gauge recess, you need to keep that as it needs to clear the boot floor and provide routing for the supply pipe work to the front of the car.


I also see no reason to have two vent pipes.

Personally I would prefer to keep the longer filler neck as it then comes into the boot rather than have a rubber piece exposed to the underside.

Peter

Hi Peter,
I've realised there is also the consideration of the 'level of fuel' given by the sender.
If it changes, so does the reading!

I was thinking that having a filler pipe bent exactly could be prone to tolerance errors
in aiming for the floor hole.
A short hose and a couple of clamps removes this possibility.

Eric, your advice in the topic "Filthy fuel tank saga" is really useful and noted. Do you have
anything to add right now?

Cheers, Nigel

Hi Nigel

In line
There are 2 breather pipes, one is 8mm, the other 13mm. They both meet inside at the same place
on the top surface and are simply open-ended. Is one enough, and if so, which size?
EW One 13mm is enough BUT actually I think the 13mm  might be the overfill return from the filler neck? and the 8mm the breather so keep both unless you are sure. On mine I have an 8mm breather via a vent valve but no car here to check right now.

There are two swirl pots visible, one inside the other. Is one enough? Perhaps the larger one is there to act as a
baffle? There are no visible baffles elsewhere. I propose to have a couple of baffles fitted.
EW One good swirl pot is enough, but listen to the experienced person making the tank. NB if in doubt go slightly larger on the swirl pot. It is effectively the tank reserve on carb cars

The return pipe from the engine [8mm] feeds into the smaller of the two visible swirl pots.
Does it need to go into the swirl pot?
EW Return to the swirl pot is wise after all this is where you always want fuel. My Aeromotive in tank FI set up does this.

The fuel pickup is 13mm and draws from the centre of the small swirl pop, via an unserviceable mesh filter.
I propose to eliminate the mesh, and assume external filters will suffice.
EW A coarse mesh to prevent stones/nuts/bolts heading down the pipe I would keep. I also view it as madness not to have a large capacity external filter pre pump especially on the IE and VX which use fine tolerance rotating vein pumps. My in tank pump has a filter sock as standard fitment and I run a second pre the injectors to protect them from pump swarf. 

The filler inlet [46mm] on the Coupe is a long swan-neck with a stiffening brace. I propose to delete the long neck
and provide a short, say 50mm, stub to which any hose arrangement can be fitted.
EW For this a straight joiner pipe to different metal pipes to suit the different shells that go up through the floor should do the job. That way the OE Neck joiner can be used. NB the straight joiner rubber joint MUST be petrol proof pipe. CBS can supply this
 
The fuel gauge sender unit mounting is set below the top surface by about 30mm. Should this be maintained?
EW Yes this should be maintained or the level sensor will not read correctly. NB In reality the tank base below has a well so tank care if the new tank is flat bottomed to adjust the height. 

I hope that helps

Eric

Hi Eric,

Face-palm moment in Kent! Of course, the 13mm IS the overfill drain from the neck.

I will see what he recommends regarding a course mesh device.

My thanks to you and Peter, helped greatly.

Popping up to SMD early next week......I met and chatted to Ian already and he clearly knows
about this sort of thing.

Nigel

I delivered the tank and chatted to the fabricator on Monday.

Discussed all the aspects and limitations.

A second visit today, after thoroughly crawling under my car, to tell
of spare space of around 30mm to the rear of the tank, and also that space
at the front was very tight, so a possible shifting of dimensions to ease access to
the outlets. I'm aiming to at least equal, or even gain some capacity, we'll see.

Very confident in his take on what's required. I haven't met Iain again yet, no matter,
awaiting a costing and the go-ahead to start.

Info required: could a Coupe owner please look under their car and tell me the available
space between the rear of the tank flange and the cross-beam on the chassis. Thanks.

Nigel

Hi all,
The info requested above is still needed, if one of you
could take a quick look.

Thanks
Nigel

Hi Nigel

Will a Spider suffice?

Peter

Yes please Peter.

Assuming Zagato didn't hack the boot floor
of the shells they received! In any case,
it's useful info.

Yes Zagato did extensively modify and strengthen the boot floor so you still want that Coupe size check.

Thanks Eric,

Nigel, I will get measurements and photos so you can see how it locates.

Peter

Thanks Gents.

I now recall that rather nice exhaust scoop in
the rear Spider panel.

Just awaiting the Coupe owner.....

Cheers, n.

Hi Nigel
Great work that you're running with this. Sorry I'd not helped earlier.  Looks like around 45mm to me.  Tricky to be very accurate because the seam sits higher than the cross-member.
Regards,
Chris

Chris,
Those pipes visible.....is this the rear of the tank?

To clarify, the space between the rear of the tank
and the bodywork cross member.
N.

No, this is the gap between the tank (front) and the rear crossmember.
I guess I'm going back to garage to get under the car again!
Back shortly.

Good job you checked!  Gap now looks like 6mm!

Thanks Chris, much appreciated!

Hi Nigel

Sorry no photo, let me know if you need it as only chance at present is a quick look. Gap is approx 8mm all along the rear of the tank. I do not have work clothes on so diving under car not an option until Sunday!

Peter

Thanks Peter, again appreciated.

The small difference between Chris's Coupe and your Spider I can
safely ignore as the mounting holes have a greater tolerance for fit.

Cheers, I'll pop into the fabricators on Monday again.

Nigel

I'm happy to report that the build has started.

I had to visit the guys today to clarify the position of the filler pipe which is
different by roughly 80mm between my car [84 HPE] and the sample coupe [VX] tank.

To keep costs down and improve access to fittings, we've brought the front face back
by around 70mm. This avoids the awkward cut out that normally clears the centre
arm bolts. Capacity compensation should be provided by the square sides, and that
the rear face is approximately 12mm further back.

He did not recommend any mesh within the tank, as it would be inaccessible and unserviceable.

Aluminium tubing is only available in imperial sizes so there will be some slight but manageable differences
with the pipe sizes.

Interesting stuff. For the more knowledgeable folks than myself, would this work in a s2 fl coupe? carb obviously but maybe go to injection one day

Hi Chris,

This would work for either carb or injection.
We are basing the build on a fuel sender without the pickup tube, and it'll have
a 13mm outlet for fuel from the swirl pot.
The carb type sender should fit fine.

Regards
Nigel

More photos of the tank construction below.
Sorry, they are not necessarily in order. There's 12 from SMD
and one more.

I collected the finished tank this afternoon and now excited to get it
in the car over the weekend, time permitting.
I can't remember how much fuel is in the car right now, so i'm hoping
i've got enough can space available!

Edit: he didn't drill the mounting holes, just in case. Probably wise.
I have a suitable hole saw so i'll offer it up, and go from there.


And the rest of the pics....

Awesome job!

I am looking forward to hearing how it fits.

Eric

Lovely piece of fabrication. If I hadn't sent my (OE) tank in for the Renu treatment a few years back, I'd be part of an orderly queue for a copy of that.

I got the old tank out this afternoon, and despite the previous rigorous cleaning, a huge
amount of fine crud was in the fuel lines and filters, of which there are 3. I'm going to
have to back flush the main line and fit, this time, 2 new filters, one at the rear and another before the pump.

I offered the new tank up, marked where the holes need to be, did some more
measuring, drilled the holes, and up into position it went.
With the tank in position and the top surface contacting the body, the side angles are flush with the body beams.
That's a great result. Now, I just want to cut 4 rubber buffers to space it down by about 6mm. Luckily,
Lancia provided long mounting studs, so there's lots of adjustment available.
The gasket surrounding the fuel sender should crush down nicely, but it will need some extra rubber to make a good seal
at the front of the unit.
Pictures tomorrow.

From a very happy chappie!

Looking forward to the pictures! particularly how it connects to the filler inlet. You can get closed cell rubber strip on rolls fairly easily to seal the front edge and you could actually use it on the edge mounting points.

Eric

After being in and out a few times, it's now in.

As mentioned by Eric, I have found some closed-cell foam which I layered to form a dust/rain
seal at the front of the sender. It's not pretty, but the job it will do. I first glue-spotted the large
rubber seal to the boot floor in its factory position. That's important as it locates just in front
of a floor stiffener.

I also packed out the mounting points with 2 bits of 3mm rubber on each. Plenty of thread
exposed beneath each nut.

Although the filler hose lines up well, it just won't go on! I could probably force it with a 'special' tool, however the risk of
deforming the spigot is not worth it. [it's 5-6mm larger than standard]
 I've ordered a length of 51mm extra-flexible hose from CBS along with some hose clips, including
for the outlet and overflow pipes.

The rear view is a little chunky, even with the 'step-up'. Underseal may fix that, but not yet.

And for now, the look from the rear.....

It appears to be slightly off level, so a bit of fettling is needed!

Hi Nigel I suspect the old filler connector pipe will have hardened with age making it a pig to fit. I used a new one from CBS on my tank.

I think the look from the rear can be softened by painting the rear strip black. On my tank I painted the lower sections with Dinitrol 4941 for weather and stone protection. On an alloy tank you probably need etch primer first.

Great work.

Eric 

The new tank is now fully plumbed with a new filler hose and proper clips all round. The
Car Builder hose was a struggle to fit, and I'd recommended not swaging the tank neck next time.
As there's no pressure, it's not really necessary, and would aid fitting the 51mm hose to the 51mm neck,
as there's almost no stretch in the hose.

I've also levelled the tank. I know this car had a rear end collision [the tailgate is not original] and
although everything looks good at the back, it's possible small anomalies exist.

If another tank is built in the future, a small redesign would move the front upper corner forward by around
20mm which will close the gap at the front of the sender, negating the extra foam packing. 
Access to the pipework will still be improved over the factory tank.

And finally, this tank cost £870.00 [SMD is not VAT registered]. Initially I thought it was expensive,
but seeing the hours that went into it, and the materials etc, it seems reasonable.
And i've now got reliably clean fuel and good access to the plumbing.
Once the car is driving again in the next month, I'll fill it and know the capacity. Stand by for that.
 
Eric, yes the original pipe may be a bit harder due to age. Thanks for the etch primer tip. 

Hi Nigel

Congratulations on getting to the end of the project, not a trivial one.

I agree with Eric on the need to soften up the rear view and black would help a lot I think.

Peter

Thanks Peter.

I meant to say that SMD said that if they have an order for a 'few' , the cost would drop,
by how much I don't know.

I had a call today with Hartlepool Radiators who do the Renu process for fuel tanks, and thought it'd be a useful comparison to drop in here. They take the existing tank, split it, shot blast it, fix it as needed, apply a rubberised lining inside and out (or paint exterior if you prefer). That was looking at £434 including shipping each way and VAT. 3 year warranty.

I don't imagine it'll be a work of art like this alloy one but it's a useful alternative. Seeing what sort of state my tank is in before I decide

Hi Chris

Please be cautious about the tank treatment the IE and VX tanks have welded in swirl pots with small pipes that are easily blocked by a coating treatment. On carb tanks you need to take care not to block the breather pipe.

For my FI Conversion we cut open a NOS tank and stripped the OE baffles and redundant pipes before installing the FI insert. 

I would go with the alloy tank and some black stone chip paint over etch primer which is easy home paint work.

With Nigel pioneering you can do the small extension to the front he described.

Eric   

I had my tank put through the Renu process, as at the time that seemed to be the only viable option. I was sick of changing fuel filters every few months to keep the car running. Since the car has had the Renu'd tank re-fitted I've done precious little mileage in it, mainly because of the trauma it suffered at the hands of an incompetent mechanic, so can't really comment on effectiveness.

If I was doing it again now I would plump for Nigel's alloy tank every time.

Nice Work Nigel!

Is there a discernable weight difference, noticeable when driving ? )

( curious )

A.   

Hi Andrew,

Interesting question.
I reckon, without the benefit/hindsight of weighing it before installation, that it's
probably similar to the factory one.
The material is obviously lighter, but much thicker [2mm].
I haven't driven it yet!

Email sent about another topic.
Cheers
N.

Well, just over a month later I've taxed it again and
took it to fuel up.

I brimmed the filler neck at 43 litres of Esso 99.
I'd already put over 10 litres from cans and used a tiny bit, so the capacity is as factory.

Before the fill, the gauge was indicating, and the low-level lamp was flickering on/off.
Pretty much as it should be I think.
Gauge now reading full.

Happy days and no leaks either!

Hi All

Just wondered if anyone else is considering buying one of these tanks as I am going to get a replacement for the HPE at some point over the next year or so?

Would be good to do a multiple buy to help with the cost.

Big thanks to Nigel for sorting out the pattern!

Peter

I could be interested in one of these depending on costs

Hi Marcus

I will send an enquiry come the New Year and see what they say.

Peter

Count me in as well, interested

Hi all,
A couple of observations if I may:[with ref to pics above]

Ordering in bulk will probably bring the cost of materials down a bit, but the labour not so much.Turning the
spigots in bulk will help as well perhaps.

I would recommend pushing the front top edge forwards almost but not quite to original position,this will
aid the seating of the rubber sender surround, but also assist access to the hose connections. I can give the exact amount later.

The filler pipe size available measures 51mm. The ethanol-proof hose from Car Builders Solutions is also 51mm. I really
struggled to fit the new hose over the swaged end.
I would therefore recommend that the filler pipe is not swaged. [Peace of mind may alter your view]

The swirl pot design and fuel feed and return lines within the tank will suit carb and FI, however
I suggest you use the later sender unit without the pick up.

One difference between Coupe and HPE that needs to be catered for is the position of the filler inlet.
The Coupe is at the far front wereas the HPE is some 80mm behind that position. Caveat:Maybe Peter can confirm
this from his early HPE....it may be different.

The other difference is that the Coupe has a long and convoluted filler neck.To prevent errors, I suggest doing all that
curvature with rubber hose instead.

He did not make mounting holes in my instance, which I preferred. This offered a bit of flexibility in final positioning.

If Iain at SMD needs a tank, I have my old one here,and he's only 10 mins up the road.

Edit: Some of the above I covered before today, but it is often helpful to consolidate.

I've probably left something out.

Cheers and happy clean fuels....[well,except for the ethanol]
Nigel

Hi Nigel

Thanks for the comments, all very useful. I have my tank out, so will take some photos and you can compare with yours as to filler knock etc. My tank has the take up in the sender unit, but not the return which is separate. On the Spider both take up and return were in the sender unit.

Peter

Only just got around to starting the ball rolling on this. Spoke with Ian at SMD Racing and will send further info and get some quotes from him. Ian do you still have the tank he used as a pattern as he has some info, but will need a tank?

Also a bit of unrelated information I found out was that he used to work for Guy Croft when he was based in Rochester, small world eh.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Yes and no. I have my original tank here, and I'm happy to take that over to Iain.
[The coupe i.e. tank which he took original data from went back to Mark. Subsequently sold.]

Yes, post pics of your tank here, and I'll do a comparison, with pics if necessary.

You need to decide where you want the fuel to exit from. And that will depend, partly,
on which sender unit you intend to use. He will probably fit a swirl pot regardless.

Apart from that, it's all down to sizing and having returns and breathers in place.

Regards, Nigel

I've got a very manky old carb tank, good enough for measurements, if anyone needs anything.

Mark

Actually, Peter, you don't need to decide this now. Iain can fit a fuel outlet pipe from
the swirl pot [which would be compatible with any upgrades later] and either of the
various sender units will still fit and be usable.

After exchanging messages earlier, I'm going to drop off my tank with him tomorrow sometime.

Regards, Nigel

Similarly, I have a tank that appears intact but I haven't poked at it. No idea if it's coupe / hpe / carb / injection

Hi Nigel

Thanks for doing that. I am going to have a good look back at your build and see if that makes sense for me. My main concern is the filler neck position as the sender unit can just be used as a sender and not used as a pickup.

Peter

Nigel, I was talking with a local guy who amongst other things has built tanks in the past and he was a bit concerned about alloy tanks being suspended on 4 bolts/studs. His comment was it WILL fail due to flexing and weight of petrol in the tank. His suggestion was to destress the tank fixings and use stainless straps with padding as per lorry tanks.

Food for thought for me and you as to how to solve the tank issue long term.

Peter

Peter, interesting input.

I hadn't given that any thought. Long term who knows. I suppose I'd better get some
miles on my car. It's worth mentioning to Iain and Tony [the fabricator] at some stage.]
Maybe a couple of additional fillets around the right-angle mounts would help.
But, until it happens.....

Tank delivered.

Nigel

I think the fundamental concept of hanging via 4 bolts is the issue. Removing the rigid fix to the chassis and supporting via straps sounds a good longer term solution. However you beef up the mounting brackets it will always be the weak link compared to the steel chassis

Just my thought anyway

Peter

Hi Peter

So really it is just adding 2 stainless straps under the tank lined with closed cell foams and securing them to the OE 8mm mounts. Personally I would prefer 2 x 8mm Stainless Rivnuts replacing the sometimes fragile 8mm stud.  I guess the concern is point load on the alloy causing a fracture in which case longer mounting flanges fitted with a deep folded end should do as well. This would have a rectangular weld patch i.e. to a wider area on the tank side than a simple straight flange with just a weld line.

Of course both the wider flange and the folded bit might already be done on Nigel's tank. I suspect the stainless straps will still be more expensive given they have to be formed to the shape of the tank to be good.

Eric

Hi Eric

This was just a 2 minute phone conversation, so no specifics. My understanding was because the tank was rigidly attached to the chassis and that aluminium will crack with flexing, that some sort of failure was likely at some point. I would have thought that good insulation of the aluminium from the steel of the chassis was also a must to avoid corrosion. What appears to be a simple solution soon turns into a minefield….

Peter

Is it possible to remove the steel tank, vent it properly (20 minutes attached to a car's exhaust pipe - running obviously!) and split the tank open, treat any rust and remove any sharp edges/baffles and then fit a racing bag tank inside it and Sikaflex it back together?

https://fuelsafe.com/custom-fuel-cells/

Guy

A bit of an update on this. I took my tank to Iain and had a quote back of over £1100 for the tank which is a fair bit up on the original for Nigel. This was due to the price of materials going up recently. I sort of baulked at this, so decided to explore with another company who are not so far away and specialise in making custom tanks. These are in I. Northampton and a lot of their work is for boats. They can supply in both Aluminium and Stainless, though after a discussion we are sticking with 3mm Aluminium for the quote. The price of Stainless would be around the same apparently.

I will report back when I have a quote.

Peter

Hi

Received quote today which is for £535 + vat, shipping if required extra, though I will collect.

So I have asked them to go ahead, will report back when I receive more info. I have asked for progress photos and for them to keep details so additional ones can be made.

I think this is a more realistic price, just hope they manage to produce something which is successful.

Peter

That's good to hear Peter.

It'll be interesting to compare the end product.

Cheers, Nigel

Hi

I am hopefully going to collect the tank on Monday, so a report back on how it has gone should be soon after. I still have the HPE, so a trial fit will be part of the testing.

Peter

Hi

I collected and paid for the tank today. The finish on it looks really good. One thing I was not expecting but on reflection is a good idea I think, is that all the pipe fittings are screw in which gives you a bit more flexibility with the takeoff direction if needed. I do not have any photos of the swirl pot at present, not sure if they took any during the build

It will be interesting to see how it looks when offered up to the HPE

Peter

Hi Peter,
That looks very nice, and great value at that price you mentioned.

Not visible in your photos is the angled clearance section at the front to allow
access to the rear inner tie rod bolts/nuts.
When you do the test fit, I suggest you bolt in the rear 'axle' cross member, and its
protection frame, if yours has one.

Those screw-in unions do give options, and make life easy if you're not
going to use one, a blanking plug is an simple fit.

I see he found the capacity 45 litres. Surprising as I'd have thought
it would be greater than the factory 52.

Regards, Nigel

Hi Nigel

I had not seen the capacity on the label. I did discuss capacity and had said that it was not a big issue if it was less than the normal tank as doing long journeys is likely to be a rarity.

I did check the internal fittings and it looks like a copy of what you have in yours.

We will see on test fit how access is, but looks to be a fair copy of the profile and hoping the rear view is acceptable.

Final price was £642 inc vat which I thought was quite acceptable.

More on this over the next week.

Peter