Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Electrical => Topic started by: AJ_Spider on February 08, 2021, 01:44:03 PM



Title: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on February 08, 2021, 01:44:03 PM
Hi,

1980 Lancia Beta Spyder 2000 828BS,

So here is my query after taking the battery out for the Winter I noticed that the two pin plug (which I have circled in yellow in the photo attached) was disconnected (I have since re-connected it). I was just wondering why it wasn't connected and if I should leave it so before hooking the battery back up or keep it connected (I won't be doing this for a couple of months yet). It could have been done before I bought it, or maybe one of the mechanics I have had working on it over the past 18 moths did it, but they didn't mention it to me. Hoping somebody can answer this for me.

Cheers,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on February 08, 2021, 03:02:10 PM
Hi Andrew

What did you connect it to?

I assume from the position it is either the reverse gear switch or brake pad sensor?

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: JohnFol on February 08, 2021, 04:16:10 PM
What did you connect it to?

That might be the missing clue, otherwise I'd guess electric fan switch (as mine routes under battery box).

Can't quite see the cable colours. Might be able to reference on wiring diagram though


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on February 08, 2021, 04:34:00 PM
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the reply. The photo was taken from the nearside wing, so the male 2 pin part was to the right of this and the cabling went down to the right and the female (at the top in this photo) was to the left? I've attached a couple more photos which should make it a bit clearer, and hopefully will help you.

I have checked the driver side wing for a similar wiring set up but couldn't see anything to match.

Thanks again,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on February 08, 2021, 04:45:21 PM
That might be the missing clue, otherwise I'd guess electric fan switch (as mine routes under battery box).

Can't quite see the cable colours. Might be able to reference on wiring diagram though
[/quote]

Hi John,

Hopefully you can see that the wire colours from the female end of the plug are white and yellow, and on the male plug they are black and white with a green sleeve. I remember that the warm air lever of the electric fan (in the cabin) was not working, but had put this down to age! Maybe it was disconnected because of this!

Cheers,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: JohnFol on February 15, 2021, 03:57:03 PM
ok, I think it's reversing switch . . .


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on February 16, 2021, 08:04:20 PM
Hi John,

Thanks for the advice. It wasn't mentioned in the last MOT that the reversing lights weren't working but I'll investigate when I put the battery back in.

I see you have a Beta Spyder as well - any general advice or things to look out for?

Cheers,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on February 16, 2021, 08:57:32 PM
Hi Andrew

FYI I was sorting out the spare gearboxes I have earlier today at my parents where I am unfortunately isolating for the next week and one of them has the reversing switch with an attached cable and connector with what apparels to be two black wires rather than, what I assume is the earlier, spade connections.

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on February 18, 2021, 11:45:00 AM
Hi Peter,

Yes, it has two spade connectors with one black and one white wire attached. I guess I'm just puzzled as to why I found it disconnected when I removed the battery (with no apparent issues), and whether I should keep it connected (as I've done since) or un-connect it again?

Cheers,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on February 18, 2021, 02:09:45 PM
Hi Andrew

Keeping it connected should not be an issue unless it is blowing fuses and the bonus is you should now have reversing lights!

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: frankxhv773t on February 18, 2021, 02:17:01 PM
You probably need to go through a process of elimination and ask yourself what reason there would be for it to be disconnected. Is it just a mistake or does connecting it cause some sort of problem like the battery going flat or perhaps random unwanted lights being activated. Assuming this plug is for the reversing lights, maybe start with it disconnected and fit the battery loose while you check if the reversing lights are still absent. Assuming they are then whip the battery out, connect the wires and try again. If the reversing lights activate then that answers the first question.

After that I'd check nothing strange and unwanted happens when the reversing lights are activated. My Y10 had an MOT advisory for power leaking from one bulb to another in the rear light cluster. Assuming no problems there, leave the battery connected to check it isn't going flat over time.



Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: JohnFol on February 18, 2021, 05:52:00 PM
Just a FYI, the reason I think it was gearbox is I was able to reach through the battery tray and follow the cable with my hand. Rather than go to radiator, or indicator (on wing), or bulkhead it went to gearbox. Might be worth a similar approach too to confirm we are all thinking the same thing, particularly as you said the MOT did not reveal a non-working reverse light


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on February 18, 2021, 06:37:24 PM
Hi

Is the reverse light working part of the test?

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: frankxhv773t on February 18, 2021, 08:29:45 PM
Reversing lights only require testing on vehicles first used from September 2009 so would not have been required on the MOT of a 1980 car.


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on February 19, 2021, 06:20:07 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for all of the suggestions and I will look into it when I put the battery back in. I was experiencing problems starting, but I was puzzled by this as I was still getting this problem after replacing recently with a Yuasa, which was recommended as reliable.

Frank, as you suggested I will try a process of elimination and see what's what. Hopefully though it may perform better if it is connected, but we'll see.

John, I will try to track the wire tomorrow as I'm going to do some cleaning of the battery tray and get some of that black paint off it.

Peter, nobody has told me that the reversing light wasn't working (including the MOT advisories) but will check when the battery is back in.

Watch this space!

Cheers,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: frankxhv773t on February 20, 2021, 12:58:54 PM
Is your "black paint" actually black paint? It looks a bit like dirty rust preventative. If so some white spirit might clean it off effectively without damaging the underlying paint.


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on February 23, 2021, 04:09:52 PM
Hi Frank,

I thought it was the black rust preventive paint which covered the rest of the engine bay when bought, and I removed this with white spirit. It turns out that these patches on the battery tray are just worn paint, so I will have to get some rosso red to re-touch I think.

When cleaning the tray on the weekend I took another photo trying to see where the 2 spade wire was going to and it does look like it's headed for the gearbox. The other part of the connection (with the white and yellow wiring) is going back into a loom of wiring further back. As the weather is getting milder I will put the battery back in this week and try out the unconnected and connected options, so should have something to report later in the week hopefully.

Cheers,

Andrew



Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: frankxhv773t on February 23, 2021, 09:24:06 PM
Battery trays are always vulnerable due to spilt battery acid. Am I right that the battery tray unbolts so you can take it out for repainting?


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: mtulloch on February 23, 2021, 10:34:12 PM
4x13mm bolts on my VX. Just re-fitted it last week!


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: JohnFol on February 24, 2021, 02:10:38 PM
Hi Andrew, if you suspect electrics as the issue then changing battery will get you so far. Earthing crops up quite a few times on this forum, so too does checking HT leads, battery terminals etc. For example I have had my alternator reconditioned as I was only get 12v output. I still have feint glow on charging light and also have lower-than-expected voltage on wiper motor so I need to trace through a bit more of my electrics. Going on the fact mine was registered 1 year before yours I'm guessing there might be some common themes.

FYI I currently have carb, radiator, battery and starter removed for cleaning / refurb for the remainder of this week and next. If you need photos of "under the battery tray" or questions like "How long are the cables" I might be able to help.


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on March 01, 2021, 03:50:09 PM
Battery trays are always vulnerable due to spilt battery acid. Am I right that the battery tray unbolts so you can take it out for repainting?

A small hinge and a wing nut bolt keeps it in place on one side and the battery slips under a lip on the edge nearest the wing (see some of the earlier photos). You have to be careful that the wing nut is properly fastened though, not a great solution tbh. Yes, it looks like the tray will come out, as it is bolted in place.


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on March 01, 2021, 03:51:09 PM
4x13mm bolts on my VX. Just re-fitted it last week!

Yes, looks like mine has a similar deal.


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on March 01, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
Hi Andrew, if you suspect electrics as the issue then changing battery will get you so far. Earthing crops up quite a few times on this forum, so too does checking HT leads, battery terminals etc. For example I have had my alternator reconditioned as I was only get 12v output. I still have feint glow on charging light and also have lower-than-expected voltage on wiper motor so I need to trace through a bit more of my electrics. Going on the fact mine was registered 1 year before yours I'm guessing there might be some common themes.

FYI I currently have carb, radiator, battery and starter removed for cleaning / refurb for the remainder of this week and next. If you need photos of "under the battery tray" or questions like "How long are the cables" I might be able to help.

Hi John, I put the battery in yesterday and left that switch unconnected, turned the key to start the electrics and put it into reverse, but no reversing lights. I then did the same with the switch connected, but still no reverse lights. Then checked to see if it would start and it did on second turnover and sounded fine. As you mentioned, there is a very faint light on the battery indicator, but nowhere near bright as before I took the battery out in January. So, I'm trying to figure out why the reverse lights aren't working in both instances and why the battery is draining?

Electrical issues: I had a new alternator fitted a few months after I bought it (I still have the old one if anyone is interested but it will need to be refurbed) and  re-furbed the wiper motor which made the wipers stronger than before (got me through the MOT in any case!) but adequate, not brilliant. The positive battery lead has an earth, the negative lead also has a wire loosely wrapped around it and doesn't look like it was factory fitted!

In regard to any questions, if you could confirm that it is the reverse switch (seeing as you also have your battery out) and what other issues could be causing A) the reverse lights not to function and B) what could be causing the battery drainage which seems to be occurring?

Thanks again for your time,

Andrew



Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: SanRemo78 on March 01, 2021, 06:01:52 PM
How about this: Get a circuit tester and see if either wire is live with the ignition on. If it is check that the other wire is an earth. Then try bridging them - connecting the two cables together and see if the result is reversing lights on? If they do come on it'll tell you that the switch on the gearbox is faulty. I'd also be tempted to check the bulbs aren't blown. Can you run a power cable from the battery positive to the rear light cluster multiplug and poke each terminal in turn to identify the connections? Obviously don't poke the earth lead!
Guy


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on March 01, 2021, 06:22:47 PM
Hi

For your battery drain, you need to hook up a multimeter in amps setting by disconnecting the positive lead to the battery and and putting the multimeter in series. This will tell you the current drain. It should be a few milliamps to cover the clock etc when the ignition is switched off.

You then need to systematically remove fuses to identify which circuit the main current drain is on. Once you have done that you can narrow it down to a specific item causing it.

I had a drain problem when I reconnected everything originally and it turned out to be the alternator, but in truth could be anything.

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on March 02, 2021, 07:01:31 PM
How about this: Get a circuit tester and see if either wire is live with the ignition on. If it is check that the other wire is an earth. Then try bridging them - connecting the two cables together and see if the result is reversing lights on? If they do come on it'll tell you that the switch on the gearbox is faulty. I'd also be tempted to check the bulbs aren't blown. Can you run a power cable from the battery positive to the rear light cluster multiplug and poke each terminal in turn to identify the connections? Obviously don't poke the earth lead!
Guy

Hi Guy,
Thanks for the advice and some food for thought there. To be honest, the electrical stuff is a bit above my pay grade and I will probably get a professional involved. At least it is narrowing the issue down a bit.
Cheers,
Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on March 02, 2021, 07:03:52 PM
Hi

For your battery drain, you need to hook up a multimeter in amps setting by disconnecting the positive lead to the battery and and putting the multimeter in series. This will tell you the current drain. It should be a few milliamps to cover the clock etc when the ignition is switched off.

You then need to systematically remove fuses to identify which circuit the main current drain is on. Once you have done that you can narrow it down to a specific item causing it.

I had a drain problem when I reconnected everything originally and it turned out to be the alternator, but in truth could be anything.

Peter

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the advice and this seems a bit more feasible for someone of my limited ability to carry out and I will give it a go in due course!
Cheers,
Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on July 21, 2021, 04:10:13 PM
Hi,

Just an update on my Spyder and the battery drain issue. I've now re-furbed the battery tray and it looks a lot better than before. Luckily it had been rust treated by a previous owner, so it only needed a good clean, an undercoat and a few top coats of cellulose red to get it looking better. The battery drain issue is still stumping me a bit though. The battery was still draining and when I have been re-charging, the charger amp meter stops at about 2 amps charge rate, even after 24 hours on low charge setting and when I connect the battery back up, it only shows a half charge on the battery dashboard indicator. I have tried the multimeter hook-up and this is giving a reading go 0.03-0.04 on 10 amp setting, so this would seem normal and no need to pull out any fuses etc.? The battery is a new Yuasa one fitted last Autumn.

Anyway just seeing if you might have an idea of what might be going on.

Thank again.



Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on July 21, 2021, 04:58:01 PM
Hi

Out of interest as I could not see it in the thread, how long does it take for the battery to get to the point of being unable to start the car?

As you say 30mA drain is not that serious, though I would try to establish what is actually drawing the current just in case it varies over time?

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: frankxhv773t on July 22, 2021, 09:59:21 AM
I would still recommend pulling the fuses out one by one to see if the power drain relates to a specific circuit. It's such a simple thing to do and could eliminate the majority of potential sources for the problem. Either it will show that the problem is before the fuse box or it will show which circuit, and therefore which group of components, you need to focus on.

I wouldn't rule out your "new" alternator as the source of the problem. I once had an alternator refurbished and it came back faulty. The voltage regulator wasn't doing it's job so blowing a critical component and killing all the electrics in the car with frightening results at 70 mph in the outside lane of a contraflow on the motorway. An auto-electrician diagnosed it and simply swapped in a new circuit board to cure the problem.



Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on July 22, 2021, 06:53:36 PM
Hi

Out of interest as I could not see it in the thread, how long does it take for the battery to get to the point of being unable to start the car?

As you say 30mA drain is not that serious, though I would try to establish what is actually drawing the current just in case it varies over time?

Peter

I would still recommend pulling the fuses out one by one to see if the power drain relates to a specific circuit. It's such a simple thing to do and could eliminate the majority of potential sources for the problem. Either it will show that the problem is before the fuse box or it will show which circuit, and therefore which group of components, you need to focus on.

I wouldn't rule out your "new" alternator as the source of the problem. I once had an alternator refurbished and it came back faulty. The voltage regulator wasn't doing it's job so blowing a critical component and killing all the electrics in the car with frightening results at 70 mph in the outside lane of a contraflow on the motorway. An auto-electrician diagnosed it and simply swapped in a new circuit board to cure the problem.



Hi Peter and Frank,

Well if my memory serves me right, I took the battery out in December as I had Sorn'd it at that stage. So by the time it became historic in April this year (but it took 6 weeks for DVLA to do the paperwork, strikes, covid etc. so was only able to drive in mid-May) I then worked on the battery tray, and when that was done I hooked up the battery. It might start first time one day, but if I come back to it the day after, it struggles to turn over and eventually dies (the battery light on the dash is showing bright at this stage should this be the case?). Funny though, I might come back to it an hour later and it will start, so I am flummoxed to be honest. As mentioned I have tried to do a full charge, but it just seems to fall short and stick on 1-2 amps charge. I will see how it starts this evening and report back tomorrow.

Frank, I will still take a look at the fuses and yes, I had the alternator changed at a commercial garage, so it could well be a re-furb, I will investigate further. I wouldn't fancy everything dying on me at 70mph on the motorway either!

All the best,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: frankxhv773t on July 22, 2021, 07:45:01 PM
I presume the battery holds charge all right if it is disconnected? A methodical process of elimination is always the way to proceed.



Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on July 22, 2021, 08:35:44 PM
Hi Andrew

If it fails to turn over the engine at one point and then later does turn it over, you most likely have an connection/earth issue. I suggest you check the voltage of the battery when it does not start. The ignition light will be bright until the alternator kicks in on start.

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on July 24, 2021, 04:28:49 PM
Hi Andrew

If it fails to turn over the engine at one point and then later does turn it over, you most likely have an connection/earth issue. I suggest you check the voltage of the battery when it does not start. The ignition light will be bright until the alternator kicks in on start.

Peter

I presume the battery holds charge all right if it is disconnected? A methodical process of elimination is always the way to proceed.



Hi Peter and Frank,

Well, it started first time on a couple of occasions yesterday moving out and back into the garage. I have attached a couple of photos of the battery connections as there is an odd wire 'wrapped' around the negative cable and some wires with spade connections on the positive which I'm inquisitive about. So wondering if these have something to do with the problem?

Frank on your point about the battery holding charge when disconnected, it was off the car for about 5 months this winter (kept in an indoor room) and when re-connected it started okay. It was after it has been connected back up for a while that I am having the starting issues.

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on July 24, 2021, 06:11:04 PM
Hi

Yes you should have some extra wires on the +ve and the pink wire may be to do with the brake fluid reservoir sensor?

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: JohnFol on July 24, 2021, 06:42:33 PM
Check Peter's suggestion about it going to the brake fluid as that's an easy check however the Pink / Black also goes to the brake pad sensor. Both go to same warning light on dashboard so shorting it out will illuminate the same bulb so not much help.
A possibility is the brake pads were changed at some point, either without wear indicator (hence nothing for the wire to connect to), or they forgot to reconnect it




Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: peteracs on July 24, 2021, 07:44:39 PM
Hi John

I think you are spot on as the spade connector plugs into the brake pad wear sensor and, as you say, is also connected to the brake fluid sensor.

Peter


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: hutch6610 on July 25, 2021, 01:50:59 AM
AJ if you don't mind me saying but that earth lead looks kind of loose to me, it appears as if its has pulled out at least 10mm looking at the gap between the insulation and the terminal itself. Its 41 years old and i would wager if you were to give it a good pull it would come out of that lead earth clamp altogether. Wiggle it as you push and it would probably go back into the clamp, not exactly a good connection? I have seen old leads like that arc when the engine is turned over.
May i suggest you just replace it (or better still) the two with nice new ones and put some petroleum jelly or silicone grease on the battery terminals when you refit them as that would stop any corrosion building up in future.
Sure that would help your intermittent starting issue.

     


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: WestonE on July 25, 2021, 08:42:01 AM
I agree with Hutch that those battery leads are far past their best. I remade mine with modern thin wall 25mm section red and black cable from Vehicle wiring products. I bought Durite battery terminals (eBay ) that take a ring connection but are lower profile. Between Pole Volt and Vehicle Wiring products you can buy all you need. If you want a cheaper crimp tool the hammer V type do a decent job. I invested in the hex crimps but have re-wired 2 cars so it was worth it for me.


Remember to wire brush the 8mm stud on the body where the -ve bolts and use some anti corrosion contact grease there and the terminals. 

It looks like you have a top quality battery so get a battery charger conditioner if you do not already own one. This is about the best there is   https://www.amazon.co.uk/CTEK-MXS-10-Automatic-Reconditions/dp/B005O8YG44/ref=asc_df_B005O8YG44/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=218093857332&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12295605999218957559&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006798&hvtargid=pla-381681873107&psc=1&th=1&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/CTEK-MXS-10-Automatic-Reconditions/dp/B005O8YG44/ref=asc_df_B005O8YG44/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=218093857332&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12295605999218957559&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006798&hvtargid=pla-381681873107&psc=1&th=1&psc=1)

Avoid smaller one that are better suited to motor bike and cars with smaller battery's.

Eric


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: AJ_Spider on July 26, 2021, 03:43:05 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for the advice, diagram and links on my queries about those wires and the dodgy leads. I will re-furb the leads asap and hopefully that will make a difference. It started okay again today, so all good at the moment (fingers crossed).

I am hoping to get down to the gathering in Devon on Saturday, so if any of you are there it will be good to chat in person. All of the advice is very much appreciated.

All the best,

Andrew


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: JohnFol on July 26, 2021, 05:27:17 PM
Due there Friday evening, camping, then meeting up . . . will be in main car not Beta


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: frankxhv773t on July 26, 2021, 07:29:40 PM
Is there an earth strap from the engine / transmission to the bodyshell on a Beta that ought to be checked for good contact as well?


Title: Re: Why was this disconnected?
Post by: WestonE on July 26, 2021, 08:37:01 PM
Yes from the earth point below the battery to the gearbox below and yes it needs cleaning up and giving proper earthing not corrosion. I made a new one at the same time as the Battery -Ve

Eric