Lancia Beta Forum

General Category => New members => Topic started by: donaldb7 on January 21, 2021, 06:51:06 PM



Title: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on January 21, 2021, 06:51:06 PM
Hey all,

New to the forum so figured I'd say hi. I'm sure I'll be posting plenty of questions and photos. I've taken ownership of a 1978 Lancia Beta Coupe and looking forward to tinkering away with it. The previous owner told me that it was put away in his shed/garage around 20 years ago and hasn't been out since! Any advice for starting the engine after 20y sitting, aside from all the obvious servicing?

Also looking for a driver's side (RH side) quarter window frame if anyone has one they'd be willing to part with.

Cheers


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: Nigel on January 21, 2021, 07:31:35 PM
Welcome Donald!
You'll find a lot of help here so don't hesitate to ask.

I'm sure, as I was, you're keen to hear the engine run. [mine sat 14 years]

Bit of a list:

Pour half an eggcup of diesel fuel down each plug hole and leave for as long as possible or at least 48 hrs.
Then try turning the engine by hand on the crank [38mm socket]. Give it 2 slow revolutions.
Then...Renew cambelt and tensioner bearing. These are the most important bits.
Carb clean/jets, float, fuel filter change.
Oil and filter
Plugs and points.

There are many opinions on the above, more will follow I'm sure.

How's the general body condition? Rear strut towers, sills, subframe to body mounts are the common issues.

Best of fun with your project which, as the photo, looks good. More pics, engine bay, interior please!

Regards, Nige



Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: WestonTB on January 21, 2021, 09:18:47 PM
Another lovely round roof, as said, 38mm socket, belts from Mark. W, good oil ,gentle 'running in' and hopefully a summer of fun with possibly some minor niggles for fun!?! ... many new fuel filters maybe a good new purchase. p.s. my 1600 only has BP 97 ron ultimate , runs like a dream, no degradation of lines, carb, float, jets etc. Plenty of good info on here as regards care and modern fuel.

Enjoy :)

Tim.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: frankxhv773t on January 21, 2021, 09:20:42 PM
Another bit, perhaps stating the obvious, is when you have done the above take the plugs out and spin it over on the starter till you register oil pressure (this is subject to advice on whether a Beta will show oil pressure as I have a feeling they are notorious for frightening new owners by the oil pressure gauge dropping to zero at tick over).


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: peteracs on January 21, 2021, 10:01:18 PM
Hi

Welcome. Wise words above, check those rubber fuel lines as they will most likely rot once you start using modern ethanol fuel. Also looks like your dipped beam headlights have rust in them.

On the quarter light, do you want the glass or part of the surround for it?

Peter


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on January 21, 2021, 10:05:55 PM
Thanks for all the advice already! Out of interest, why diesel and not petrol? Will take on board all that advice. Looking for the window frame rather than the glass. Both sides seem to have rotted out. The car is at a friends being dry stored as the garage here still being put up! Will give it a proper inspection when I get it back!


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: Nigel on January 21, 2021, 11:55:03 PM
Petrol doesn't contain any lubricant.
The point being that the rings will likely be a bit crusty and clogged, and the bores, or
at least a couple of them may have a coating of fine rust.
The diesel is thin enough to penetrate through the crud, and give a small amount of lubrication.

Frank, yes, forgot that. Establishing oil pressure before an initial start is very sound advice. 

As a p.s....the diesel will likely produce huge white smoke on initial start. It'll clear quickly.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: peteracs on January 22, 2021, 12:03:26 AM
As an alternative to diesel if you do not have any, put in some light oil. Again anything to provide lubrication to the bores before you start turning the crank.

One way of getting oil round the engine whilst you have the timing belt off, is to spin the aux shaft which drives the oil pump. This allows the oil to get to the cams before you start spinning them. Double check however that the aux shaft does not strike the con rod on cyl 2 however when you do this.

Peter


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: smithymc on January 22, 2021, 10:01:37 AM
Welcome Donald and best of luck with your new project. All good advice to date and plenty more available from what you will find to be a very helpful and supportive forum.

Mark


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on January 22, 2021, 12:05:42 PM
Will get on a buying spree and get anything that I havenít already got! Thanks for the oil pressure tip as well! Hadnít thought of that. Is it possible to do all this without pulling the engine? Or will it be easier just to pull it out?


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: frankxhv773t on January 22, 2021, 01:27:30 PM
Everything is intended to be done with the engine in place. It's pretty much the standard procedure for waking a car up from a long slumber.



Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: peteracs on January 22, 2021, 02:04:09 PM
Hi

There is a removeable panel on the inner wing at the timing belt end which gives you good access.

Peter


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: WestonE on January 22, 2021, 04:24:13 PM
Welcome!

I agree with the revival comments already made. You might want to consider changing the water pump (The VX/ Montecarlo version provides more flow), Checking the thermostat using a saucepan and jam thermometer and back flushing the radiator. With the car running a de-scaler flush before a high concentration of new anti-freeze.

NB the heater valve might be semi seized or leaking.

Also inspect distributor cap and rotor for burning and HT leads and Dizzy cap/coil ports for corrosion. 

In general inspect everything made of rubber for cracks, becoming hard and brittle or loss of structure (brake hoses).

Look inside the fuel tank for rust and scale by removing the level sender. You might need to flush the tank out to prevent break downs later from clogged filters

Fortunately most service parts are easy to find and relatively cheap.

Enjoy

Eric 
PS if you decide to pull out the engine then change the rear crank oil seal and clutch whilst you are there.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: rossocorsa on January 22, 2021, 04:47:31 PM
Welcome!

I agree with the revival comments already made. You might want to consider changing the water pump (The VX/ Montecarlo version provides more flow), Checking the thermostat using a saucepan and jam thermometer and back flushing the radiator. With the car running a de-scaler flush before a high concentration of new anti-freeze.

NB the heater valve might be semi seized or leaking.

Also inspect distributor cap and rotor for burning and HT leads and Dizzy cap/coil ports for corrosion. 

In general inspect everything made of rubber for cracks, becoming hard and brittle or loss of structure (brake hoses).

Look inside the fuel tank for rust and scale by removing the level sender. You might need to flush the tank out to prevent break downs later from clogged filters

Fortunately most service parts are easy to find and relatively cheap.

Enjoy

Eric 
PS if you decide to pull out the engine then change the rear crank oil seal and clutch whilst you are there.

Here's a curious thing, I gave  Steve Thompson a VX waterpump to put on his 2.0 ie and he said it wouldn't fit! I was sure it would but he was adamant that it doesn't odd isn't it?
 I would suggest starting a shopping list for certain key parts and to start searching, some things are easy some things need to be snapped up in advance if you find them at a good price, brake discs (see recent thread on those and current probably short term availability), engine mountings, thermostat, shock absorbers come to mind


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: WestonE on January 22, 2021, 04:53:43 PM
Hi Alan

Good point on stocking up in advance to save money and disappointment. Very strange on the VX water Pump as I have fitted these to IE blocks and looked at far too many TC blocks over the years and not heard of or seen any issue with the depth of the recess for the deeper impellor.
A new standard one will still do the job on a standard car reliably provided it is not scaled up or been run on plain water.

Eric 


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: rossocorsa on January 22, 2021, 08:58:00 PM
Hi Alan

Good point on stocking up in advance to save money and disappointment. Very strange on the VX water Pump as I have fitted these to IE blocks and looked at far too many TC blocks over the years and not heard of or seen any issue with the depth of the recess for the deeper impellor.
A new standard one will still do the job on a standard car reliably provided it is not scaled up or been run on plain water.

Eric  

It is odd about the pump I do wonder if it's just a quirk of that particular car. It was a Graf pump one of the few that do the proper VX/Monte pump


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: Alsace Stradale on January 28, 2021, 01:24:21 AM
Hi Donald,

I'm new here aswell. I've just taken custodian of two 2.0 coupes, along with a lovely bunch of bits. I know for sure that I have a surplus of quarter windows, so I could have a look (and do some much needed cataloguing) amongst the spares that came with them; I may have what you need.

Luis


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: frankxhv773t on January 28, 2021, 11:54:46 AM
Quarter windows come in a variety of constructions. Finding ones with all stainless frames instead of mild steel with a stainless trim attached would be a bonus.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on February 21, 2021, 09:15:37 PM
Hey folks,

Thatís the car back in my hands after spending a while in a friends garage. The plan of action is to get it running first, make sure the mechanics are sound, work on brakes and suspension etc. After that, the focus will get shifted onto the bodywork. Had a quick look around the common areas for rusting. The worst of it seems the be the sill/inner arch at the front and some rust of the rear strut towers as well. Hoping the inner sills are okay and most likely going to end up buying the outer sill replacement. They have been replaced once already... but badly. On top of this are the usual rust bubbles dotted around the car, hopefully nothing too difficult to sort. Wanting to try my hand at welding in some panels but also considering a body shop for the replacement panels. Let me know if I should be looking anywhere else for structural rust!


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: WestonE on February 22, 2021, 08:12:43 AM
Look into the cross floor box sections. It is common for trapped water to create rust at the seams and corners. Other wise the boot floor in the corners.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: frankxhv773t on February 22, 2021, 12:38:06 PM
Mine went in the top of the front inner wings, the section the outer wing bolts into along the side of the bonnet. Also I've had trouble where the rear seat belt mountings bolt through into the rear arch.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: GerardJPC on March 06, 2021, 08:02:11 AM
A note on petrol:  Esso Supreme 99 + is ethanol free in many areas of the UK, but check the Esso website to see which areas.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: peteracs on March 06, 2021, 10:10:00 AM
This is the current website notes on 99 which identifies the areas.

ďAlthough our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area, Scotland and NW England). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with Ďup to 5% ethanolí, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.Ē

Peter


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 06, 2021, 05:31:22 PM
Some progress!

New tensioner bearing arrived from Mark the other day so now Iíve changed the timing belt as well as tensioner bearing! Looking nice and clean now as opposed to the rusty mess that it was before. And changed the oil and filter, plugs and fuel filter. Turned it over without the sparks connected to establish oil pressure but no luck! The gauge seems to be working as a little blow through the oil pressure line shows pressure. The gauge is showing some signs of life when the engine is turned over but no where near what Iíd consider necessary. Also on that note, not getting any fuel into the fuel filter despite a full tank! Any idea why? Will post some photos soon!

Cheers guys

Donald



Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: Nigel on March 06, 2021, 06:12:22 PM
Some progress!

New tensioner bearing arrived from Mark the other day so now Iíve changed the timing belt as well as tensioner bearing! Looking nice and clean now as opposed to the rusty mess that it was before. And changed the oil and filter, plugs and fuel filter. Turned it over without the sparks connected to establish oil pressure but no luck! The gauge seems to be working as a little blow through the oil pressure line shows pressure. The gauge is showing some signs of life when the engine is turned over but no where near what Iíd consider necessary. Also on that note, not getting any fuel into the fuel filter despite a full tank! Any idea why? Will post some photos soon!

Cheers guys

Donald



The line you blew through is not oil pressure but is oil level. It connects to the top
of the dipstick. Oil level gauge is top right.

The oil pressure gauge is top centre and is electrical. It's worth getting a new sender,
it may be blocked.

Try sucking the fuel line to see if its flowing ok. Old fuel lines can collapse internally, it's worth
changing all the rubber sections.

Regards
Nigel

edit to add: just remembered yours is an early car so gauge positions may vary.
Also, how old is your fuel, did you drain and clean the tank yet etc.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 06, 2021, 07:00:50 PM
That makes a lot of sense 😂! Drained all of the old fuel and luckily it was put away with a fairly full tank! After draining, I noticed the tank looked surprisingly clean, therefore figured Iíd be okay to do without taking the tank out and cleaning it. Will make sure to change the fuel filter a few times to start with! The fuel in the car right now is brand new so that shouldnít be an issue! Wanting to replace the fuel lines but figured Iíd test it first to see if I can get the car running before doing that. Thanks for the advice though! Is there anyway to refurbish the oil pressure sender? Or easier just to get a replacement?

Cheers


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: SanRemo78 on March 06, 2021, 07:07:58 PM
When you turn the ignition on do you get a red low oil pressure warning light on the dash? Does that go out when you're cranking the engine on the starter? If so the pressure sender on the block will be faulty (assuming wiring continuity).
Guy


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: frankxhv773t on March 06, 2021, 08:10:01 PM
You say you turned it over without the sparks "connected". When trying to get some oil pressure up I would think you need to do it without spark plugs fitted so it cranks at a higher speed. The other thing to bear in mind is the tendency to register very low oil pressure at low engine speeds. I thought my first Beta needed an engine rebuild till someone explained that the indication of failing oil pressure at tick over was quite normal. 


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: Nigel on March 06, 2021, 10:14:21 PM
It's not possible to open the oil pressure sender, and new ones are quite cheap so go for that.
The larger of the 2 senders on the oil filter block is the pressure. The smaller one is the warning light.
If you ground the warning lamp wire at the engine end. the light should glow. If not, check the bulb in the dash.
If it still doesn't glow, you have a wiring issue.

In any case, changing all the dash bulbs is a good plan as then you're starting from a known quantity.

Looks like you dodged a bullet with the full tank. Rust is much less likely during storage.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: SanRemo78 on March 06, 2021, 11:19:04 PM
It's not possible to open the oil pressure sender, and new ones are quite cheap so go for that.
The larger of the 2 senders on the oil filter block is the pressure. The smaller one is the warning light.

I think there should be 3 senders on the oil filter block? At least that's my memory from 30+ years ago. Oil pressure gauge, oil pressure warning light and the oil temperature gauge?

And if anyone needs the union that holds 2 and is secured to the oil filter block by the third sender I think I have one somewhere in the garage.

Guy


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: Nigel on March 07, 2021, 09:12:41 AM
Exactly right Guy.

I forgot about the temp sender, and its gauge.

As time and various mechanics hands goes by, these wires can become accidentally swopped around.
So if suspect readings are noticed, it's worth checking that first.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: WestonE on March 07, 2021, 10:06:41 AM
The Classic mechanics solution here it to fit a good quality capillary Oil Pressure gauge for testing. The Race Tech ones are excellent and will tell you the truth unlike the OE sender and dashboard. The OE senders fail over time but at best the OE gauges are vague and slow.

The engine does need some turnover speed to generate oil pressure and beware oil filters without the anti-drain back flap. These need a lot more cranking to get oil pressure which is not a good thing.

Eric 


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 07, 2021, 03:52:20 PM
Thanks for all that info guys! If Iím cranking the engine with the spark plugs out completely and an oil pressure gauge in place of the sensor, what sort of psi should I be looking to see?


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: WestonE on March 07, 2021, 04:36:53 PM
The Low Oil Pressure light goes out at 14PSI  on a Beta. If you see 15 -30PSI cranking you are doing OK. The pressure will come up on starting in seconds.

On long standing engines a light pre oil of the cams and the bores is sensible but expect a white cloud on starting!

Eric   


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 07, 2021, 06:44:23 PM
And any brand recommendations for a new oil pressure sender?


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: capriblu on March 07, 2021, 09:16:17 PM
And any brand recommendations for a new oil pressure sender?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285)


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 07, 2021, 10:42:14 PM
And any brand recommendations for a new oil pressure sender?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285)

Unfortunately they don't post that to my location


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: capriblu on March 07, 2021, 10:57:03 PM
And any brand recommendations for a new oil pressure sender?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285)

Unfortunately they don't post that to my location

Oh dear. Try this one ?  (I have bought various items from this seller in the past - all OK)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Replacement-FIAT-LANCIA-Engine-oil-pressure-sender-Transmitter-0-8-Bar-/303552142624 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Replacement-FIAT-LANCIA-Engine-oil-pressure-sender-Transmitter-0-8-Bar-/303552142624)


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 08, 2021, 10:37:56 AM
And any brand recommendations for a new oil pressure sender?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285)

Unfortunately they don't post that to my location

Oh dear. Try this one ?  (I have bought various items from this seller in the past - all OK)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Replacement-FIAT-LANCIA-Engine-oil-pressure-sender-Transmitter-0-8-Bar-/303552142624 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Replacement-FIAT-LANCIA-Engine-oil-pressure-sender-Transmitter-0-8-Bar-/303552142624)


Ordered!


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: mtulloch on March 09, 2021, 09:57:44 PM
And any brand recommendations for a new oil pressure sender?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285)

Unfortunately they don't post that to my location

Why, where are you?


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 10, 2021, 10:47:03 PM
And any brand recommendations for a new oil pressure sender?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAE-Oil-Pressure-Sender-Unit-14530-Discount-Car-Parts-/291625987285)

Unfortunately they don't post that to my location

Why, where are you?

Scottish Highlands


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 25, 2021, 03:06:18 PM
So I've been having some issues with spark! So far, I've put in a new battery and swapped in a new rotor arm, distributor cap, HT leads and plugs but still zero spark on turn over. I've also checked the resistance of the coil which sits at 3 Ohms so I think that's good, but correct me if I'm wrong please. What else could be causing the issue?

Cheers


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: peteracs on March 25, 2021, 03:54:18 PM
Hi Donald

Is your car on traditional points and if so have you checked the gap?

Then disconnect the coil from the points and hook up a 12v bulb one end to the battery, the other to the wire to the points, when you turn the engine over by hand does the bulb light and go out as it turns? If you get permanent bulb on or not at all then you have an issue with earth or capacitor. If you get turn on/off then...

Next reconnect the coil and arrange for the lead from the coil to go to a spark plug if you can fit one onto the end and see if you get a spark whilst turning over the engine on the starter. If no spark then either coil or lead.

Assuming a spark then the issue is with the disti cap and or cables.

Peter


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: WestonE on March 25, 2021, 05:25:04 PM
Check you are getting 12V to the coil ignition on as well.

Eric


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 30, 2021, 10:13:33 PM
In the process of resetting the gap on the contact breaker, I noticed a tiny bit of corrosion on the points. Low and behold, after a quick clean = spark at last!

By squirting some fuel into the carb, I've managed to get the car to fire for the first time! What a joy that was...
However, the engine is running rough and it seems like the fuel getting to the carb is inadequate. Therefore, I've been thinking about a new fuel pump and I've reached the crossroads between mechanical and electric.

Does anyone know how I'll be able to find the Gallons Per Hour rating of my Beta in order to select the correct pump if I choose to follow up with the electric pump? Currently looking at Holley's range.

Also looking at replacing the rubber lines. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I believe its 8mm and 4mm bores.

Thanks for all of the advice so far!


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: Nigel on March 30, 2021, 11:14:56 PM
Hi Donald
For your car i'd recommend the electric Huco 'pull' pump from Fast Road Cars.

It's around £65.00. Beware of cheap copies, ask me, I know!

It's designed to fit in the engine bay, pulling fuel. Lots of info on this forum
on how to install. You can leave the existing pump in place, or remove and fit a cover plate.

I'd also suggest an inertia switch as a safety precaution. Any will do the job.

On hoses, get the Gates branded items, and make sure they are suitable for
ethanol-based fuels.

Hope this helps
Nigel.


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: peteracs on March 30, 2021, 11:24:15 PM
Hi Donald

You need R9 rated fuel hose and get branded, not Ebay etc as stories of relabelled R6 etc.

As to sizes I seem to remember 8mm and around 5mm, but easy enough too measure.

See this for discussion on petrol pipes

http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm (http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm)

Peter


Title: Re: New member: '78 Beta Coupe
Post by: donaldb7 on March 31, 2021, 12:11:37 AM
That's great! Thanks guys