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General Category => Members Cars => Topic started by: peteracs on January 14, 2021, 12:39:49 AM



Title: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on January 14, 2021, 12:39:49 AM
As I am on the home straight for getting my Spider back on the road, hopefully this spring, I have had it in my mind to rebuild an engine for it as the one it has currently is the original one it came with to me over 10 years ago (probably been in there for over 30 years at least) and I am assuming it is a standard 1585cc unit etc.

My thought process started on a replacement engine way back when I read the Darren Cooksey thread on modernising a FI engine and recently after a number of exchanged emails with Eric and discussion with Darren re what known options are sensible for my use, I think the following is my likely target. Note that I have no interest in track day use, just an interesting updated engine to use on the road which will be reliable and usable. I was also inspired after watching numerous US based tuners with modern ECUs and how controllable the tune of an engine can be, as opposed to the one size fits all of standard carbs.

Given I have never rebuilt an engine I initially thought to go in two stages, first with a dual carb setup and then move to FI, however looking at the costs of new carbs and the above mentioned lack of flexibility, I have for now decided to move straight to FI from day one. This means a bunch more work and mods to the car, but given I want to end up there, I might as well do it in one move, rather than two. As to costs it will be more expensive the FI route, but would be a lot more expensive to go the two stage route ultimately.

So onto spec.

I have a couple of both 1600 and 2l engines of unknown state, so any could be used as donors. One concern I did have was that my car has the original 2 vent bonnet, not the later one vent used on 2l, but given that this was an issue for the standard air filter and I will be using a custom arrangement, this should not be an issue. It appears I have little to lose and lots to gain by going with 2l. One issue a number of folk have is using a side draught carb/throttle body as the air intake is next to the radiator, so some games have to be played to get cold air in. Eric solved this using a relocated custom rad, however by going with a down draught dcnf style throttle bodies removes that issue and I can keep my standard rad position. Dual Dcnf manifolds are still available for this config to give the one port per cylinder config which is the ideal scenario.

I am also making use of a couple of GC's books, GC's forum and a Haynes Engine Management book by Dave Walker. The engine management book I have started reading and looks to have some interesting advice even for looking at tuning a standard engine, or at the very least understanding what is going on.

So onto the list of items I am looking to include (not complete, but gives you an idea)

2L block and crank
Modified head ideally with VX size valves
Cometic head gasket
Cast pistons
Uprated con rods
GC 3/A inlet cam
Standard 2L exhaust cam
Vernier Cam wheels
Baffled Sump
Updated water pump
Lightened flywheel
Integrale clutch
Dual DCNF inlet manifold
Dual dcnf throttle bodies
Webcon swirl pot/pump connected to original tank
Upgrade return fuel pipe to 8mm
4-2-1 exhaust manifold
Oil cooler

Gearbox - probably change diff ratio to improve cruising

I do not expect too many updates on this as very much background project for now, but will be looking to buy parts where I find them at a decent price.

I suspect my starting budget for the build is £4k, but never having done this before, I could be miles out...... hopefully the wife will understand!!

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on January 14, 2021, 10:12:37 AM
Hi Peter

I am happy to help you achieve an amazing result with a stealthy period look. As we have discussed finding skilled experienced people who know the chosen ECU and how to use their Rolling Road is essential. If in doubt ask the ECU supplier directly for their top 5 recommended. Shipping the car on a trailer for mapping to the right person is MUCH better than a local have a go hero. No ECUs (even the most expensive) will auto map from initial start up and start up maps are just to start the car and fix any oil/water leaks NOT drive it. Wide Band Lambda sensors tune and tweak the car as you drive if set up just like they do on some modern cars.  

Because of this the car will be on a trailer for initial ECU setup. The results are normally brilliant and you can get the car run in on the rollers before an oil and filter swap and power runs.

High Quality Electrical Crimping tools and waterproof connectors are your friends. Neither should be cheap and nasty.

I am glad to see you have no intention to use OE conrods in your build. They are just a huge false economy these days being a high stress component. Unfortunately along with used pistons frequently the cause of an early blow up on re-built engines.

Enjoy

Eric
NB The Haynes book is dated now and an obvious promo for Emerald (there are better options). However the installation hints and how to position the trigger wheel and sensor are worth it.


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: betabuoy on January 14, 2021, 11:29:41 AM
Peter,

The work youíve done on your car so far is stunning, and I certainly understand that the direction projects follow is extremely personal, but I canít help feeling youíve now gone looking for some birch twigs with which to whip yourself!  

Why not build a nice standard engine to get the car on the road then develop one of your other engines to be the much more complex FI beast you desire? A standard engine can hold your removable items like baffled sump, 4-2-1 exhaust and oil cooler and would probably be both achievable by the Spring and affordable!

Everything boils down to time, cost and performance and with that in mind, I fear your aspirations for this engine project could easily set you back a year + and you probably need to allow at least double your engine budget.  Iíve been there!   At the end, of course, you should have a lovely Beta... but will it be ready for Beta50?    

Chris


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on January 14, 2021, 11:46:16 AM
Hi Chris

Thanks for the wise words and they are pretty much my thoughts as it happens. The car currently, and for the rest of this year at least, will keep the 1600 standard engine which is running ok, yet to check the gearbox and clutch, waiting for some decent weather to get the suspension tightened up, test gearbox and clutch, align wheels etc. This engine project is just the follow on with no definite target timeframe in mind other than I do not intend to start it until late on in the year, or at least the parts I am going to do. I also do not underestimate the time it will take to complete the build and install, but I would like to get some use of the car before I start to hack it around.......! I shall keep the car intact until the engine is fully built and ready to be installed so that if that rolls on for another year I can keep using the car in the mean time.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: betabuoy on January 14, 2021, 12:36:53 PM
Hi Peter,

Apologies, I should never have doubted but now I understand. You have an excellent plan!

Chris


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: capriblu on January 14, 2021, 04:50:06 PM
Hi Peter,

Agree with Chris's comments and glad that you seem to be following this approach - seems to make most sense.

Is your Spider a 1st series car?   Is it a second series 1600 (1585) engine or the earlier (1593 longer stroke/smaller bore) variant ?

An 1800 would be nice if you could find one to work with.

Regarding twin DCOEs then I'm sure that if you could find a reasonable used set of the right size and a similar good used (GC) inlet manifold / linkage etc from somewhere then you could set up pretty quickly and be able to recoup a significant part of outlay on hardware by selling on later.

Keeping fingers crossed for some better COVID news and some good spring/summer weather!


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on January 14, 2021, 07:15:45 PM
Definitely with you on Spring coming and the whole Covid thing settling down.

My 1600 is the S2 1585, and bits for 1800 are more difficult to find, having said that Mark is looking after an 1800 block for me....

However I think the 2l is the way to go as it is the engine that most folk who modify them will have used and hence there is more experience and uprated parts around.

On the dcnf v dcoe, yes the dcoe are saleable as are the dcnf, though not so many around of the dcnf I think. I really did not want to be messing around with the radiator if possible and absolute power is not a big issue. I think the effort to go FI directly will also be an interesting project and I may have had enough if I just go with carbs and never get to the FI which I think would be a shame. If I was doing this on a tight budget I would go the carb route for sure as the difference in cost is significant.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on January 14, 2021, 07:16:39 PM
Hi Peter,

Apologies, I should never have doubted but now I understand. You have an excellent plan!

Chris

Hi Chris

No problem and thanks.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: frankxhv773t on January 15, 2021, 10:54:15 AM
Peter, I may have an 1800 Fiat block. I'll message you.


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on January 15, 2021, 11:30:49 AM
Hi Frank

The Fiat ones are different to the Lancia ones as I understand in that the mounting holes are different, but the internals are the same.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: squiglyzigly on January 16, 2021, 10:06:25 PM
Hi Peter,
Sounds like a very nice project in the making.
My thoughts on the dcnf approach are, if my memory serves me, there isnít much room above the carbs (throttle bodies) for a decent air box or remote filter take off before you hit the bonnet.  Of course it can be done, but is it as good as a side draught installation? Can anyone confirm if my memory serves me on this or is it indeed picked in vino?
As to the side draught approach, you can push the radiator forward using a VX/i.e. rad for more space without having to go to full rad fabrication and retain a little o.e authenticity.

Just some food for thought.
Looking forward to the project thread.
Ian




Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on January 16, 2021, 10:14:55 PM
Hi Ian

I think you are correct about space, I suspect the dcnf will be similar height to the standard carb, so my thoughts are a custom air box will be required with possibly a cone filter next to the current cold air intake. I still think the work involved with the side draft solution will be more overall.

I will get some dimensions of the Jenvey dcnf ones and just check before buying anything.

Thanks

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: mangocrazy on January 19, 2021, 09:40:50 PM
Hi Peter,

Sounds like a very interesting 'cunning plan' and acquiring the parts by stealth is something I've been doing for the last ten years or so and can recommend that approach. The adaptor plate for the engine stand came back from the platers yesterday, so I'll make a mock up of it in sturdy cardboard and send it to you if you PM me your address.

Graham


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on February 11, 2021, 09:29:02 PM
First part bought other than the engines I already bought some time ago.

GC 3/A inlet camshaft from Gloria who inherited GCs business and is currently relocating it to Bedford where she lives.

I have also placed an order for a Mangoletsi dcnf inlet manifold, but delivery timeframe on that is very uncertain apparently.

In terms of tools just purchased a set of Moore and Wright micrometers and a low cost dial bore gauge. These are in anticipation of seeing how good the crank, exhaust cam and bores are on the engines I have.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on February 12, 2021, 09:00:05 AM
Hi Peter always too late but just in case twin DCNF Manifold https://www.facebook.com/groups/34046697401/permalink/10159121550742402/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/34046697401/permalink/10159121550742402/)

Eric


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on February 12, 2021, 11:30:18 AM
Hi Eric

Thanks for the link. I will stick with the one I have ordered as hopefully will materialise and is a whole lot less expensive especially given the additional import charge chaos going on at the moment.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on February 20, 2021, 11:28:51 AM
One subject I had not thought of before, but have been reading and watching about engine rebuilding and wondered what to use as an engine assembly lube/grease. The conclusion I have is that a specialist grease or gel is likely to give the best protection, especially if the engine is stored a while before starting. So any input on this subject would be welcomed, also does the same apply for the gearbox/diff?

Peter



Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on February 20, 2021, 05:38:53 PM
Hi Peter

Plenty of good engine oil well distributed. There are 2 exceptions worth considering if you have new cams then specific Cam lube just before start up NOT when building the engine unless it will be started within a month of building. The second is using some moly grease in the oil pump to encourage priming. Again if left for long term storage without turning over it can harden adding un wanted strain. I do not use Moly Grease preferring to fill the cam boxes, coat the cams and spin the engine on the starter to prime the oil system.

Eric


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on February 20, 2021, 08:37:36 PM
Hi Eric

That is not what I expected you to say and appears to be in direct conflict with what I have read elsewhere.....

The general comment is do not use ordinary oil as it does not include enough Zinc and does not hang around on the bearings etc if stored, hence use a specific bearing lube (dissolvable in oil) if storing for a long time.

Others do say use a thicker oil than normal.

I can see the benefit of pre pressurising the oil system before trying to start it and would do that especially as fairly simple to do on this engine.

Peter



Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: mangocrazy on February 21, 2021, 02:15:48 AM
I did notice that the Project Binky chaps were using a lurid pink grease from a tube quite liberally when reassembling their Toyota engine.


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on February 21, 2021, 10:24:32 AM
Hi Graham

Curious what was used on your engine?

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on February 21, 2021, 10:28:40 AM
Hi Peter

I forget sometimes that other people have not had the misery of being trained in lubricant technology. By Zinc you mean ZDDP which is an agent that promotes oil film retention and metal to metal pre-lubrication. It has been reduced in some modern oils because it is hostile to catalytic convertors. It's advantage is at cold start and first start. But too much in a freshly built engine and you can face serious bedding in issues particularly the rings which need to wear into the bores to create a seal. This is why you start with good quality running in oil not the finest Synthetic you will switch to after running in.

If pre-lubes dry out from storage you get problems with blocked drillings and oil starvation issues. New cams MUST be given start up lube just before start up to protect the case hardening and they need to run at 2000 RPM for 5 to 10 minutes to bed in. With used cams I have used moly grease coating at first start up with no issues. I like the Kent Cam lube for new cams. It has all you need and is easy to get.

Some engines have designed in lubrication challenges so may need more start up lubricants. If you go this way the engines needs a regular turn over and warm dry storage just like with engine oil. But you also want to be doing a swap to fresh running in oil and new filter soon after the first run up to temperature holding 2000 RPM.

Ultimately you make your own scary decisions.

Eric  


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: squiglyzigly on February 21, 2021, 10:37:55 AM
Thanks Eric,
I wasnít aware the ZDDP content was being reduced in oils to save cat converters. Iíve always liked that feature of modern lubricants. :(

Ian


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: mangocrazy on February 21, 2021, 01:15:39 PM
Hi Graham

Curious what was used on your engine?

Peter
Hi Peter,

I have to confess I am completely unaware of what was used on my engine build, but I'll ring Stanwood next week and find out what they use for engine reassembly lube.

Graham


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: mangocrazy on February 22, 2021, 11:37:48 AM
Hi Peter,

Just rang Stanwood and they tell me that they use Lubriplate 105 as an assembly grease. Here's a link:

https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/Grease/Multi-Purpose-Greases/100-Series/NO-105/ (https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/Grease/Multi-Purpose-Greases/100-Series/NO-105/)

They stock it and will be happy to sell you a tube. Guy was always effusive in his admiration for Stanwood, and I have found them beyond reproach in all my dealings with them.

Cheers,

Graham


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on February 22, 2021, 12:13:27 PM
Hi Graham

Many thanks for info

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on February 28, 2021, 03:23:25 PM
Hi

I mentioned before, but here are some photos of tools purchased to help out with the engine.

First up is a set of Moore and Wright micrometers. These are used good condition ones, imperial, but happy to do the maths when needed. I did not fancy a set of the cheap Chinese ones as it appears they can be hit/miss on quality.

Next is a Chinese bore gauge. I really wanted this just to gauge how round the bores are and asses the best block and the need for rebore on the blocks I have. The machine shop can do the real accurate stuff.

Lastly a magnetic stand and a finger type dial gauge  (I have the rod type in the bore gauge). I bought this for the stand, but the dial gauge was only a little extra. Again my main reason for buying a cheap item was to give me an idea of variation, rather than anything which is super accurate.

Also on its way is a spring compression set, I already have the Fiat/Lancia tools for the shim replacement when that is needed.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on March 22, 2021, 01:11:33 PM
After being told the twin dcnf inlet manifold from Mangoletsi may be a long time arriving by Rally Design, I had a nice surprise. I had ordered it a few weeks ago and surprisingly had a call to say it had arrived and did I still want it! The answer was yes of course and arrived here today. Very happy with it and the price was just over £200 delivered which given the price asked for Alquati versions second hand looks to be a bargain in my books. Now I have this, can start deciding when to order the Jenvey throttle bodies which are made to order, so will be another longer timeframe item.

On a different subject, had a quick play with the spring compressor which turned out to be not ideal, but usable. The problem was the part which presses against the top of the valve spring has a lip which was not quite large enough diameter to fit over it. So a bit of use with a cutter will be needed to open it out to fit. The other issue is the collets are tight fit in the top of the cap and hence need a tap to release after a fair amount of static pressure is exerted via the spring compressor. After a bit of trial and error I was confident to do the job repeatedly. I was practicing on a spare head, not the one I am hoping to use.


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on March 22, 2021, 07:23:46 PM
It makes a nice surprise when parts actually turn up ahead of time and at a decent price!


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on March 22, 2021, 09:02:01 PM
Hi Eric

Yes, I was surprised at the price given what folk were asking for second hand ones.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on May 07, 2021, 11:04:18 AM
Whilst I was thinking about it, I wondered if anyone knows how GC configured the swinging gate in his last version of the sump baffle? I have seen photos of the modified sump, but that just shows the upper plates and does not show what went on below them. I note from his comments here

http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=3451 (http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=3451)

That this design was an improvement on the one currently sold by Mark (unless Mark has updated his and not the photos).

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on May 07, 2021, 05:55:50 PM
Hi Peter

I have a GC one, but it is installed with the whole engine resting on it. Maybe I have photos. I will have to check.

Eric


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on May 19, 2021, 11:38:26 PM
Hi All

I have read Grahamís thread on clutch replacements and Eric has suggested VX flywheel and associated clutch. However not having a VX flywheel and reading some of the comments it does appear careful choosing of clutch make rated for Delta HF turbo and using a standard 215mm flywheel which I have more than one may be the way to go. Anyone else have a comment or suggested supplier? I see Helix have a suitable one as do Spec, both at a significant price over the standard HF clutch kits.

Original thread

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3120.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3120.0)

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on May 20, 2021, 08:01:08 AM
Hi Peter

Budget plays a part here. You can get a new lightened steel flywheel and clutch from Helix and solve multiple problems although it will still need balancing with the crank.
Any cast iron Beta flywheel will need lightening, surface grinding and crank testing. Plus maybe ring gear replacement if it is burred.

There are dozens of suppliers of VX 8V Integrale size lightened flywheels BUT finding quality could be tricky.

If a flywheel or the bolts holding it fails it gets very messy quickly. So not a place for compromise or bodges unless you like the scenes in Wacky Races with the Buzz saw chopping through cars!

Years ago you could get 1600 HF Turbo flywheels and drill out the bolt holes to a larger size to get a lighter flywheel. They were rare then and now!

New bolts are essential as is using the spring plate behind the bolt heads.   

Eric


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: rossocorsa on May 20, 2021, 08:40:53 AM
Hi All

I have read Grahamís thread on clutch replacements and Eric has suggested VX flywheel and associated clutch. However not having a VX flywheel and reading some of the comments it does appear careful choosing of clutch make rated for Delta HF turbo and using a standard 215mm flywheel which I have more than one may be the way to go. Anyone else have a comment or suggested supplier? I see Helix have a suitable one as do Spec, both at a significant price over the standard HF clutch kits.

Original thread

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3120.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3120.0)

Peter

Peter

I think I have VX flywheel if you need one


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: squiglyzigly on May 20, 2021, 03:11:27 PM
Just throwing this out there as I havenít got a VX and a standard 2.0 n/a flywheel to hand for measuring, but what are the differences between the two?

Is it mainly the size of the clutch which means the raised face for the center plate clamp area on the flywheel is larger and the bolt holes for the larger pressure plate are a different spacing?
If so, couldnít a standard 2.0 n/a flywheel simply be re-faced and re-tapped for a 228mm clutch kit to fit? A quick easy job for a machining shop.

Or are the differences more significant so that a normally aspirated flywheel is physically smaller and cannot simply be machined to accept the larger clutch?

Ian





Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on May 20, 2021, 06:07:15 PM
Hi Ian

Yes in theory but a bit messy practically because of the step on the flywheel face and the potential weakening of the flywheel from the extra holes is probably not worth the risk. VX flywheels are not that hard to find but will still need a surface grind and the right machining on the rear to lighten.

BTW if the lightening machining is not done correctly the cast iron flywheel will fail. See GC book for correct profiles. A new steel flywheel will be lighter and stronger.

Eric

PS you can get alloy flywheels with steel inserts, but I am not sure about their durability.


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on May 20, 2021, 06:43:20 PM
Hi Eric

So is the VX one steel unlike the standard one?

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: mangocrazy on May 20, 2021, 10:49:54 PM
I have to admit that my choice of a VX flywheel and Thema Turbo 16V clutch was made largely on the grounds of cost, but also availability of parts further down the line. I was fortunate enough to get my crank and (VX) flywheel lightened and balanced by Guy Croft before his sad demise, and was also able to source a Thema Turbo 16V clutch at very reasonable cost. My reasoning was that if a clutch can handle the output of a spiky 201bhp Turbo engine, then it would have no problems with a far more docile normally aspirated 150-155bhp engine.

Manufacturers (for the most part) like to keep their stock inventory manageable and re-use or re-purpose parts wherever possible. I've upgraded motorcycles in very similar fashion, using parts off higher-spec models to freshen up and improve more lowly models in terms of engine, suspension and brakes at much lower cost than sourcing expensive aftermarket options. As long as you're not going for absolute top of the line spec then it's an approach that works well.


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: WestonE on May 21, 2021, 08:03:10 AM
Hi Peter

The VX Steel Item comes already lightened cutting out one more job in building a performance engine.

Eric


Title: Re: Replacement Engine project
Post by: peteracs on May 21, 2021, 09:49:00 AM
Hi Eric

Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like the way to go.

Peter