Lancia Beta Forum

General Category => Members Cars => Topic started by: Nigel on October 03, 2020, 06:48:03 PM



Title: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on October 03, 2020, 06:48:03 PM
After almost 11 months of work, my car is MOT'd and on the road.
It's not the way most chaps approach
their projects, but I didn't want to strip the whole thing down and then find I somehow lost interest in it.
Also, I wanted to spend cash slowly, i'm on a monthly budget!
Partly the reason behind waiting so long for the right car, one without any significant rust issues. As soon as I
spotted the FB mention by Andrew Cliffe, I knew this was the one.

It's had a bunch of work including in-situ big end bearings, all the normal engine stuff, a delete of the
Aus emissions system, an EU spec carb from Chris [which is working very well], a rad recore, bypass of the heater
matrix due to leaks, fuel tank clean and lots more.

I'm now in my happy place where I can drive the car and fix tons of stuff in between.

It needs a rear wheel bearing, a heater repair, front discs, clutch, a/c delete, a retrim, and new paint. A bonnet as well.

I've been following the forum for over 10 years, and thanks to everyone who's helped and contributed to
my car in every way.

Couple of pics out on the road today.....


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: peteracs on October 03, 2020, 09:43:24 PM
Hi Nigel

Looks very smart from the photos, congratulations.

Peter


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on October 03, 2020, 10:25:59 PM
Nice one, Nigel. Looks lovely. It's all too easy to just let them become garage queens. Good on you for getting it rolling.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: smithymc on October 04, 2020, 09:02:28 AM
Great looking car Nigel- well done on getting another beauty back out there.

Mark


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on October 04, 2020, 11:55:49 AM
Well Done Nigel

And a very good point about actually finishing and using the car!

Back to the garage for me.

Eric


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonTB on October 04, 2020, 02:21:25 PM
Spot on, using them has to be what it is all about, drive it, poke it, see what breaks... you maybe surprised what doesn't! Enjoy it...

Now off for a drive in the rain with trusty coupe :)


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on October 21, 2020, 06:33:13 PM
Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated!

Today I completed the assembly of a steering wheel.
I made an adaptor ring from a piece of 4mm stainless steel.
The wheel, hub, horn push and badge all ebay. I'm particularly chuffed that the badge fitted as it
was a bit of a incorrect, but cheap purchase many months ago. I think it's a 'B' or 'C' post fitment on
maybe Delta, not sure.

Also I made the original RHD column cowls fit. They fought a bit, but with some multi-tool relief, they
finally gave in.



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on November 29, 2020, 07:11:01 PM
Now my car is Sorned for the winter, it's time to tackle the leaking heater, one of the few tasks i've
not done on a Beta before now.

As i want to address the dash cracks it seemed reasonable to take that out first. It all came apart without
too much drama. Wow, that dash is heavier than I was expecting. The heater unit is also quite a lump.

I've got a replacement complete 'standard' heater unit, together with the control panel, almost on its way.

While everything is out I'd like to replace the thick and heavy insulation with something else. I know of Dynamat,
but I was wondering if there's a recommendation of another product that would give good performance without
breaking my cash flow?



As alluded to above, i'm deleting the factory a/c system, and I think i'll need a non a/c power-steering
pump/alternator engine bracket. I wonder if anyone has such a thing?


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on November 29, 2020, 11:12:08 PM
You've clearly taken a fair few bravery pills today, Nigel. Top work! Tackling dashboard and heater matrix is high on the scary-o-meter for me...


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Sandro on November 30, 2020, 11:52:32 AM
You've clearly taken a fair few bravery pills today, Nigel. Top work! Tackling dashboard and heater matrix is high on the scary-o-meter for me...

I'll say  :o  you're a braver man than I taking that on.  :)

Its good to see progress ( esp. as your beta is almost identical to the one I have. )

Best of Luck!


A.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on November 30, 2020, 02:10:05 PM
Hi Nigel

I might have a perfect plated PS mount that goes onto the standard IE Oil block for IE cars. Let me look before posting a picture. Dyamat is a love hate thing for me. I hate doing it, but it is just better at the job than all the cheap copies and I have tried many because Monte's are famously noisy. Black anti - drum first (bitumen stuff is hopeless and copies like Fat Mat and Dodo Mat are horrible to work with). Then the thickest Dynamat foam over it. Use the existing sound proofing as a pattern and save yourself hours. Dynamat foam does NOT absorb water so no more damp sponge under the carpet!

I will come back when I find the IE bracket.

Eric     


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on November 30, 2020, 07:26:50 PM
(http://[img])[/img]


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on November 30, 2020, 10:54:45 PM
Hi Eric,
Many thanks for that advice. I'll look at that.

As for the bracket, I'm unfamiliar with what it should look like, but that appears superb.
One thing I need to check is the oil filter housing, of which I'll post a pic asap.
My oil filter, at present, is almost horizontal, maybe angled down around 10/15 degrees.
Is that the normal angle for an i.e. engine?  I ask as I know the old standard carb set-up
without p/s is pointing down much more. Of course, it may not matter in the end.

Cheers
Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on December 01, 2020, 10:11:47 AM
Hi Nigel

The IE has a nice alloy oil filter block that is my favorite for building brackets on Montecarlo custom stuff it has a flat face under the steel brackets where the 4 fixing bolts go through from the steel bracket I have posted pictures of. Both the VX and Montecarlo have huge heavy lumps of cast iron.
I have no handy pictures or I would post one.

Eric


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on December 02, 2020, 10:01:49 PM
Quick question Eric, does this appear to be a standard power steering pump, in other words,
will it fit your bracket?

I will inevitably have to fettle the oil lines and the drive belt arrangement as currently
the p/s pump belt is routed around the double a/c pulley.

I'll be glad to be rid of the compressor as belt adjustment is a pain.

Cheers, Nigel




Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on December 03, 2020, 09:21:44 AM
Hi Nigel The pump looks the same, but I am not sure about the plate bolted on the front with 4 x 8mm bolts. It is hard to make out. I will have at least one of these plated and ready to go, but some digging needed to find it. I can not see the oil block behind it either so not able to confirm it is the same.

I found a picture of the IE Oil Block from my Montecarlo bracket build.

(http://)


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on December 03, 2020, 10:09:06 PM
Thanks Eric.

I'm going to have to 'bite the bullet' and remove my bits and actually see what
i've got to work with.

My goal is to be able to have a complete as possible a/c kit so that if someone wants it, I know
it's all there.

I'll come back to you if I may, to get whatever bits might work!

Cheers, Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on December 05, 2020, 11:46:15 PM
Today I removed the gear lever housing in order to replace the 3rd of the three nylon
pivot bushes. Much easier on the bench. I also knew I had a small bit of rotational
movement on the gear lever, and found that the block at the bottom was loose. I knocked back the
lock tab and got a one-flat turn on the nut, result. I also slightly tightened the through bolt to
remove any play there. This is the last step on the gear change refurb so total reassembly tomorrow.

Also today I had a closer look at the two dashboard cracks. I bought some Isopon hole filler,
the one with fibres in it. I opened up the cracks with a grinding bit in a Dremel-type tool,
and will fill those slots tomorrow. As I realise i'll never get close to an invisible repair, I looked at available
dash covers. I found a company in Essex that does leather covers that do the entire unit, but at £200. So
once the repairs are at least flat, I think i'll cover with a simpler leather piece just on top. We'll
see how that turns out later.
Meantime, there's some before and after crack shots, not necessarily in the correct order.





Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on December 21, 2020, 02:54:35 PM
The aircon delete is progressing, all hoses removed, and holes plugged. I haven't yet tacked the
compressor removal, soon!

 The dash is still awaiting a suitable cover, as yet undecided.

I've used Silent Coat as a sound/insulator in 4mm. Thanks for all the suggestions.

The weather being a bit dull, I've set up an area indoors to start preparing for the trimming.
My 1957 Singer hadn't been used for a while, so oiling came first. Then, I thought I'd
renew my somewhat amateur abilities by making a gear lever gaiter, a fairly safe little bit, that, if all went wrong
it wouldn't matter too much. There's one spot where the thread snapped due to my inattention, but it faces the front so acceptable
for now.

I was fortunate to be in East London recently, a perfect opportunity to visit a hide dealer I'd found. He had the colour I wanted at
a very good price ,and said matching this wouldn't be a problem. It's huge, at least bigger than I was expecting, but I'll
need another in the new year.
I've still got some grey leather from the South African car, this I combined for the gaiter, but I'm undecided on having two-tone
on the seats. 



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on December 21, 2020, 07:10:55 PM
Amazing work I wish I had the tools and more importantly the skill for trimming. I went to a huge effort finding a gear gaiter for my custom gaiter fitting plate. I wanted a smaller less baggy item than the OE one.

Eric 


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on January 10, 2021, 07:15:14 PM
I've done little to the car outside recently, but progressed a bit
on the retrim.
I sourced one extra seat, a pax side, which hopefully will provide those inevitable
missing or broken bits.
A few days ago I started dismantling my drivers seat, ready to make the patterns.
There's a huge amount of fraying, and I had to machine-wash the covers as they were
impregnated with orange dust from the original scrim foam [ foam backed with
a thin nylon mesh-type material] which rots out over the years.
The actual seat foam is in reasonable condition, a few splits should be repairable with glue and
bits of foam inserted where necessary.
I'm still sourcing stuff i'll need to make the new covers, an ongoing challenge.
 


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: chrisc on January 10, 2021, 08:24:51 PM
Interesting to see it all apart. Did you consider changing the seats or you wanted to keep the factory ones?

I'm planning on replacing the front seats with some random recaros I picked up cheap and retrimming the lot to half leather / imitation leather and some sort of houndstooth fabric for the central panels


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on January 12, 2021, 05:25:31 PM
I know it won't be at all original, but have you thought about contacting an upholsterer and asking if they can make copies of the foam part of the seat? I'm sure the original foam is well past its best and is probably in some stage of decomposition. Your back(side) may thank you in the long run...  ;D


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on January 12, 2021, 06:34:38 PM
Hi Graham,
That's a thought I hadn't had! I'll certainly consider it. Luckily, i've got 3 seats to play with
so sending one bit away wouldn't be an issue. Do you happen to know someone that can do this?

Chris, not really. I'm quite familiar with the existing ones, and I know how comfortable they are,
having done a 12 hour virtually non-stop Joberg to Capetown trip.
I've no doubt that Recaro's would be somewhat better though.

Thanks all, Nige


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on January 12, 2021, 08:15:50 PM
The only upholsterer I know is a guy named Tony Archer. He's mainly known in the bike world for turning a plank of wood into a comfy seat (he's done 3 at various times for me), but he does re-trim and upholster cars as well. Hos phone number is 07305 744141.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on January 31, 2021, 01:13:20 PM
Eric, greetings again, perhaps you could advise below.....

Back outside on this unpredicted good weather day today, and
i've removed some bits to gain access to the a/c and power steering pump. Much better
pictures now attached of the huge cast iron bracket, and other steel stuff.

It looks as if i'll have to remove almost everything here and start again,[ without the compressor.]
Do you think you have the brackets etc. I need to complete?





Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on January 31, 2021, 04:03:09 PM
Hi Nigel

Behind all those steel brackets I can see the Aluminum Oil Block and the bolts look the same. You might need a different bolt on plate on the front of the PS pump behind the pulley. I probably have one in similar plated style, but currently packed away.

Let me know if I should start rummaging in crates!

Eric


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on January 31, 2021, 05:16:21 PM
Thanks Eric.
Stand by for now.

What I think i'll do is remove the a/c comp then reassess my options.

Cheers for the rapid response!



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on February 05, 2021, 06:01:00 PM

I've now removed everything off the bracketry.

Upon test fitting the PS pump all seems well, I get a good support structure,
and plenty of swing to achieve belt adjustment. The pipework will
function as before.
Alternator fitment is virtually the same, save for a spacer required on the
lower long bolt.

It'll run 2 belts. All I have to do is measure/find/fit a [possibly] non-standard belt.

So, thanks Eric, but all's well!

Once again, I ask questions before I get my own answers! Ho Hum.

Nige


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: frankxhv773t on February 05, 2021, 09:11:51 PM
Even if you eventually answer the question yourself others of us learn something along the way so please keep posing the questions.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: peteracs on February 06, 2021, 12:17:10 AM
It is also useful to get others views on a subject as they may come up with ideas that you would not think of.

Peter


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on February 06, 2021, 04:04:24 PM
Thanks chaps, maybe I'm not quite as irritating as I thought  ;D

Now all reassembled sans extremely heavy a/c compressor. As a bonus, I now have good access to
the oil filter.

One of the old belts was nice and long so I cut a portion out of it, drilled a 2mm hole
in each end, and joined it with a bit of wire. My friendly motor factors had a rummage
and found a belt that was a perfect match. [Dayco D13A1000C]
I've no idea if this is a Beta-size belt, but it's now a standard fitment for my car.

And I've completed the first seat bit.



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on February 19, 2021, 10:51:14 PM
After a considerable amount of swearing, material waste and an occasionally uncooperative
sewing machine, the first seat is complete.

I wasn't going for two-tone originally, but when the fake alcantara arrived it
changed my mind. It is really quite good quality, and it came with a 5mm scrim foam backing, ideal.
It will also provide a bit of grip, and it'll perhaps be cooler in summer.

I added extra springs as an experiment, thinking that maybe the existing originals might
have stretched a little. I also glued some fabric to the base to give the foam a little more support.

The headrest was the most challenging bit due to its size. Originally the fabric was tucked into each side of a thin steel
channel at the bottom. Being an out-of-sight area, I glued the two fabrics together underneath instead.

Thanks for the suggestions previously....the base foam turned out to be sound enough so no need to replace it.





Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: GerardJPC on March 04, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
That looks good, and suitably in period.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Sandro on March 04, 2021, 03:38:41 PM
A nice Job Nigel,

..plenty of patience required I'm sure.
( fiddly )

I look forward to seeing them in situ with the Lever cover. :)


A.
 


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on April 01, 2021, 08:55:36 PM
Hello all,
Some pleasing progress during the winter-scheduled tasks.

The heater box with its replacement matrix is in, and leak tested.
The dash is now back in after an Isopon repair and paint, with new sound deadening
behind it, but lots of refitting still to do there.

The last 2 months has mostly been on retrimming. The rear seats were much more challenging
than the fronts, due to trying to line up the stitch pattern.  All is done with the exception of the
2 door cards. I'm still undecided on how to do it, as the black padded sections are somewhat distorted,
and the fabric was originally 'welded' to the plastic.

I've put more sound deadening behind the rear 'door' cards, and fitted two new front seat belts. They
retract properly without any hesitation. The only aspect of these is that they don't have the spring
device and plastic wrap to hold them to the floor to ease rear pax access.

I've also changed the carbs jets to the spec that capriblu had great success with.
Haven't run it yet though!

A piece of 1/4 inch brass arrived recently for the oil separator project, to do.
Also to fit the new front discs and pads which have been on the shelf for 4 months.



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on April 10, 2021, 07:56:21 PM
Just a little bit of bling today...

These stickers were advertised on a Gamma page...they are quite thick with rounded edges.









Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on April 11, 2021, 08:20:56 AM
They look a very tidy solution.

Eric


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: jwhelan on May 03, 2021, 03:54:26 AM
That's the same year and colour as mine - even the stereo is the same (although mine has a bluetooth receiver in behind it).  Looks great!


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on May 03, 2021, 06:21:18 PM

Aside from the fuel tank work [ in my other post] lots more work has progressed.

While everything was out, I removed the gear lever housing and fitted the final new gear change bush.
Much easier on the bench.

The crack-repaired dash is back in along with the heater unit.  The Isopon worked well, and after rubbing down,
a few coats of satin black finished it off nicely. It looks almost original.

I finally figured a solution for the front door cards. I cut the leather 10mm larger that the black plastic surround,
folded and glued to the exact size, then gave it one row of stitching. It was then glued into position butting up
to the plastic 'corner' all around, and then wrapped around the rear to the back. The right-hand card was quite
warped from water ingress, so I had to pack out the backing foam to make it flat.

I never liked the original window switch position. Moving them up to the console meant making a mounting block
that attempts to match the gear knob. The block was needed to let the switch wiring clear the small footwell air hoses.
It also gave room for a USB outlet.

Upon refitting the radio, the speakers wouldn't work. After much head-scratching, both speakers were dead. I still
have no idea why, they were fine before. The new pair [also Pioneer] sound much better, but I had to make 10mm blocks
to space them away, as they were a bit deeper than the old ones.

I've also been changing the colour from Silver to Grigio Finanza, a period Fiat colour. My aim is to do all the shuts and under-bonnet areas with
rattle cans, then get the exterior done properly with minimal dismantling.




Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 16, 2021, 05:09:34 PM
Hello all,

After another month or so of final door card trimming and some more paint, I taxed
it again.
Felt great to drive it, so, last weekend I finally fitted the new discs and pads, and new hoses, bled it through
and went for a 50 mile round trip.

Alas, during the latter part of the trip, the clutch started to slip in 3rd gear when booted.
I always knew the clutch felt a bit weird, but I was prepared to live with it if it worked!

Now I'm considering my options!
1.Do the clutch only.
2.Take the gearbox out, and have the bearings changed [it's a little noisy]
3.Drop the whole lump down and do the struts at the same time, and clean/paint the engine bay.

I've still got plenty 'the love' ,and repeating some tasks is normal for me.

Question, will an engine hoist lift the car sufficiently high to drag the whole unit out, or would I really
need a frame/block and tackle?

Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on June 17, 2021, 07:55:45 AM
There might be some adjustment left in the clutch? When I bought my last ie Coupe it slipped under power in second. Two turns on the butterfly and it was OK for the 18 months that I kept it.

An engine hoist should lift the front of the car bolted to the strut tops.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 17, 2021, 08:26:44 AM
Hi Nigel

Take the gearbox out and change the diff bearings only whilst cleaning the casing internally comprehensively. Change the clutch including release bearing and nylon arm bearing. Change the crank rear oil seal and the gearbox output oil seal as the most likely cause of a dead clutch and likely to kill your new one. The diff bearings are cheap and the first thing to start making a noise in use.

My view only.

Eric


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 17, 2021, 10:03:45 PM
Neil,
I checked earlier, and found I have 4 to 5 mm play between cable and arm, so nothing to gain there.
Thanks for the hoist advice.

Eric,
Indeed, and perhaps a full set of bearings is the way to go.
I read somewhere here about gearbox sockets/tools for hire. Is that still a thing?

Thanks both
Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 18, 2021, 07:44:44 AM
Hi Nigel

LMC hire Tools, but is the noise chatter at idle (bearings on the shafts) or whine and slop whilst driving (diff) bearings. Gearbox builds are serious business requiring extremely clean conditions and the circlips will drive you mad without the right pliers.

Eric 


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: squiglyzigly on June 18, 2021, 05:06:53 PM
Not to mention 3 of the six bearings are very difficult/expensive to find. Also Synchro hubs and sleeves are almost non existent now.
Iím currently doing my 2.0 i.e. gearbox and have been searching for parts for around 4 months now.
The few remaining nos parts available are usually in Italy (no surprise there) and unfortunately some traders are now refusing to send to the UK due to Brexit complications.

I think Iíve found most of the parts I need now but my pocket is around £700 lighter and Iím still waiting to see if the few remaining parts will make it into our little island.

 :'(


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on June 18, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
Yes, when Day and White overhauled my gearbox in early 2019 (mercifully pre-Brexit) they had to source those expensive bearings from Italy. They have A Man they use down there who seems to be able to lay his hands on most stuff. But at a price...

I used them to source the gearbox lock ring/nut that I needed to get the removal tool fabricated and a single nut cost me £25.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 18, 2021, 07:54:40 PM
As I said, I heard noises last weekend but didn't spend thinking time on
a diagnosis. I'm fairly confident that the syncros are working as they should.
 I'll take it out again tomorrow.

Ian, you've painted a gloomy but fair picture on parts availability. I'm assuming no other
Fiat uses similar bearings judging by your own difficulty in sourcing bits.

Graham, I recall, and was thinking of speaking to them. They know their stuff.

It now seems like luxury that I got all the bearings and gaskets off the TAK shelf
in Johannesburg 30 years ago! Time moves on.



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: squiglyzigly on June 19, 2021, 04:05:50 AM
I think the beta/monte box is fairly unique in its use. Maybe Eric can help me out here but apart from the Beta and a few vans I donít think it was used anywhere else.

A couple of the bearings are shared with other cars and vans but theyíre all pretty much out of production now as far as I know. The differential bearings are easy to source as is the primary input shaft bearing clutch end as they are universal off the shelf items. The outboard bearing on the primary shaft had 2 different designs depending on early or late (i.e. VX) and neither are very easy to source but is shared with several cars I think. Delta integrale 8v, tipo, Alfa 155 etc etc. The early one is rocking horse poo.

Both the bearings on the second shaft are not so easy to source. One of them has the same dimensions as a late Fiat 500 but that bearing has less balls and I didnít want to go there. I found an equivalent from an Alfa 164 nos bearing that had one more ball so Iím happy with that. The other bearing (pinion end) seems to be available as an updated roller bearing but I forget how I found that. Cross referencing numbers maybe.
And the pair of gaskets are to be confirmed (in the post) this week. Iíve ordered them for a Fiat Ducato/Talbot express/Citroen C25 van. They used the Beta gearbox with modified linkage and are still popular vans in the motorhome community.

Iíve also made contact with a chap that modifies the large nut/sleeve on the top of the gearbox. This is the sleeve that the external gear selector rod connects to the gear linkage. The steel sleeve is prone to wear and besides a possible oil leak it causes play in the gear change as the steel sleeve goes oval. The motorhome boys have these modified by machining out the inside and installing a bronze bush. The sleeve in my i.e. box has worn so I shall indulge in this mod.

Hope this info helps.
Ian


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 19, 2021, 07:49:22 AM
The Montecarlo consortium through Paul Courtney went to huge effort to find modern equivalent bearings and I think Paul found a full set of available modern bearings eventually with references.

I use the Integrale main cluster base bearing (the largest one) because it has double the number of rollers to take more load. Tanc Barret has them. I think he also has the double roller bearing used on the VX boxes.

I got away with not needing new needle roller bearings for the gear clusters which helps as I have no idea where I would find them. Once again early boxes are different with the gears running directly on the shafts so when they have too much side play they are scrap and possibly the shaft as well.

If you want to build a gearbox now strip the best 3 you can find and cherry pick with careful measurement and new bearings and gaskets as a minimum. The first and second synchro hub is the part you really want and is of course stupidly hard to find now.

There is cross over to Integrale Thema in places.   

NB Gasket thickness matters because if effects end float clearance.

If you are reading this and not yet needing a gearbox build this is all the hints you need to change your gearbox oil preferably hot.

Eric   


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: peteracs on June 19, 2021, 08:19:14 AM
Hi Eric and Ian

Thanks for this, definitely not a faint heart project if you decide to do it.

The list of modern bearings would be useful to have documented here for future ref.

Peter


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on June 19, 2021, 11:04:45 AM
When Day & White rebuilt my Beta gearbox they gave me the old bearings that had been replaced. I'll dig them out and photograph them and post the pics. I would be interested to know which 'version' they are and part numbers for future reference.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 19, 2021, 03:39:19 PM
Eric, Ian and Graham, Thanks for all the input!

Graham, that would be extremely useful info .Looking forward to seeing those numbers.

Driving it today:
There is a noticeable whine when pulling and changes to a quiet growl on over-run.
I can hear the input shaft bearing, and possibly others, running in neutral, it goes silent when the clutch is depressed.

I have more or less decided to live with the current box for now, and just change the knackered clutch.
In the meantime, I will seek a spare gearbox to rebuild.



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on June 19, 2021, 06:33:59 PM
This thread has actually made me think that it's probably worth changing the diff bearings while all the oily bits are out of the car and on the floor. Is it a particularly difficult job and are any special tools required?


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 20, 2021, 08:04:33 AM
Hi Graham

Was that not done with the Day & White Gearbox build? Done correctly you would check the side play on the differential planet gears and replace the shims as needed inside the diff housing. This needs spare gearbox parts of the kind I carefully keep for my next re-build. Most of the time the side play on the diff is fine and you use hydraulic pullers to remove the old bearing. If you heat the new inner assembly in the oven 200 degrees C they should drop onto the diff outer although having a press might help. There is a pre-load measuring routine (haynes manual and Lancia Tech Books) for choosing the right bearing pre-load shim.  My experience suggests as long as you do not change the casing or the diff bearing cover plates you will end up using the same preload shim for the diff bearings.

Replace the oil seals and O rings on the diff bearing cover plates. I clean them up and paint them avoiding paint on the machined faces. The oil seals have their size written on the in tiny writing and you can order new ones on one of the online bearing supply sites if your local industrial bearing supplier is a bit reluctant/hopeless.

TMH and others probably have the seals and O rings at a crazy price if you want to go that way.

NB if the diff and pinion are heavily worn the rest of the gearbox will be too. This from a lack of oil changes leaving what amounts to grinding paste working away.     


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 20, 2021, 10:56:07 AM
Hi Eric,
Does the Monte gearbox share all 6 bearings with the Beta?

And the aforementioned clutch release arm bush?

Regards, Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 20, 2021, 01:35:48 PM
Hi Nigel

Yes with the standard gearbox. Some later boxes have needle roller clusters some do not. The Monte has a sintered speedo drive at a different pitch to the Beta, lower first gear (not swappable because the fixed shaft is matched) and different selector assembly.

Early Monte boxes chatter at idle just like early Beta boxes due to the slack end float clearances that were improved in later boxes.

Eric

Mine is a hybrid mix of Monte and VX with a few bits of Integrale.   


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on June 20, 2021, 02:04:54 PM
Thanks Eric, I will check with Day & White on Monday. I can't imagine they would have overlooked that.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 20, 2021, 02:36:44 PM
Graham,
You'll know by the number of old bearings they gave back to you, maybe.

Thanks for that info Eric.

Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 20, 2021, 07:03:46 PM
Well, I took Eric's advice and removed the gearbox this afternoon.

I have the same issue as Graham, the clutch arm is stuck to the spline, so some work there.
The flywheel needs resurfacing, rusty pits from its 14 year standing, the clutch plate is
down to the rivets both sides. No serious oil leaks detected, but I'll change the crank seal.

For the gearbox, it seems crazy to refit without addressing the known issues, so more
research on bearings, gaskets and seals coming up.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on June 21, 2021, 09:28:57 AM
Hi Nigel,

You're very welcome to borrow the tool I used to free my clutch arm. Just PM me your address and I'll send it off. Give it a good soaking with Plus Gas while you're waiting...

Graham


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 21, 2021, 12:52:56 PM
That's awesome Graham,
Thanks, sending pm.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 21, 2021, 05:46:49 PM
Gents,
I've just measured the flywheel with a digital caliper and find the thickness to
be on the Haynes manual limit of 24.2mm.
However, at the back, i'm measuring from a small raised portion, I'm not sure where
it should be measured from.
In any case, does anyone have an updated-from-experience minimum to go by?

The effect of skimming too much is that the clutch assembly will be further away from the release
bearing I think, therefore perhaps reducing available adjustment?
Is there any other collateral effect that I should be wary of?


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 22, 2021, 07:37:47 AM
Hi Nigel

Very hard to measure this. If it has never been ground before it is unlikely to be a problem. You want the flywheel surface ground if you can not skimmed in a lathe to better deal with hardened hot spots. Get the flywheel crack tested before they start. If cracks develop the flywheel can break away.

Enjoy

Eric
PS remember to replace the gearbox output seal and bearing carrier cover gasket. NB a thicker gasket pushes the release bearing closer to the clutch.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 22, 2021, 06:17:30 PM
Thanks Eric.

The flywheel is now in for crack test and grind. He reckons 10 thou should do it.

NB "a thicker gasket pushes the release bearing closer to the clutch".

During actuating, surely not? To achieve that, the fork would need modifying.

Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 23, 2021, 08:24:46 AM
Hi Nigel

You are right I think the paint fumes from my house being painted are getting to me!

Eric


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 26, 2021, 08:29:42 PM
I received a box of bits from TMH today, quicker than expected by DHL, but
the order and payment process was quite protracted.

I've now got all the seals and O rings, a gasket set, crank seal, clutch release bearing and diff bearings.
One part, the clutch arm bush, measures 0.4mm larger than the hole in the bellhousing.
Seems it might be a bit too big, but it fits the arm well enough. 

I stripped the diff out of the box, and replaced the bearings. The old ones were not that bad
as it happens. I used a cheap 3 legged puller from Screwfix which I had to modify for the second bearing
on the engine side. The new ones tapped on with suitable pin punches, bottoming out nicely. I was pleased to
find that the magnet had no big bits attached, just fine swarf to be expected.

After a thorough cleaning, I'm going to reassemble tomorrow and see if the existing shim [1.80mm] will do the job.

As already suspected, the gearbox input shaft has bad bearings, but the main shaft feels ok. I may well leave this for
now, and do these bearings later.





Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on June 26, 2021, 10:09:00 PM
One part, the clutch arm bush, measures 0.4mm larger than the hole in the bellhousing.
Seems it might be a bit too big, but it fits the arm well enough. 
Hi Nigel,

That's very interesting - I've just bought the same part but from Betaboyz; I haven't measured it and the bell housing orifice up yet, but would like to know what your measurements are. I'll reciprocate once I've dug my way into the bombsite shed...

Graham


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 27, 2021, 08:16:59 AM
Hey Graham, that was your 1000th post!

The bush is 27.32 and the gearbox is 26.95,maybe 27.00.

My concern is that the gearbox hole has a split section which could easily crack if put
under too much load.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 28, 2021, 05:42:41 PM
Hi Eric,
A question please:
As i've replaced the diff bearings with the gear shafts in place, i'm unable to
do any pre-load procedure. Is it relatively safe to use the existing shim to reassemble?

Thanks, Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 29, 2021, 07:18:48 AM
Hi Nigel

Yes in my experience. With the same Diff in the same casings you are using the OE factory assembly. When you mix and match from boxes for the best parts it must be checked.

Eric


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 29, 2021, 07:28:43 PM


Many thanks Eric, appreciated.

Differential now reassembled.
 
As for the slightly oversized clutch arm bush, I've 'turned' in down.
I found a socket that fitted snugly inside and bolted it together with washers
on a piece of all-thread, then spun it in a pillar drill against a flat file.
I'm favouring locking it from turning, so pinning a notch into it is the next task.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on June 30, 2021, 05:50:54 PM

I rummaged through the box of bits and found what looked like the
possible candidate, a Weber idle jet.
Its body is about 1mm smaller than the slot, with the split leg at 4mm.

Some filing, drilling and grinding later, it works a treat.



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on June 30, 2021, 06:05:41 PM
Good to see creativity in action.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: mangocrazy on June 30, 2021, 08:01:20 PM
Nice one, Nigel! I was thinking that a small metric cap head screw would also work. An M2.5 cap head screw has a head diameter of 4.5mm, which is fine for our purposes. All you need to do is to drill a hole that corresposds with the tapping clearance (about 2 mm), tap the hole to M2.5 x 0.45 and Bob is your mother's brother...


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: squiglyzigly on June 30, 2021, 09:15:00 PM
Liking this a lot.
Nice work

Ian


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on July 11, 2021, 06:43:50 PM
Good progress today and recently.

Last weekend I took out the right hand strut, dissembled, cleaned and regreased the top
swivel bearing. I've already done the left side, both now good to go.

Today the flywheel, clutch and gearbox went back in.
Hot tip: it's best to remember to fit the sandwich plate before the flywheel, otherwise it gets all bent again!
I must say the gearbox was quite a struggle on my own, but doable. Several small blocks of wood to position
it helped a lot.

I'd noticed a rumble on the wheel bearing in the left-hand hub i'd removed. As it happens, I had one in
my stock of bits from SA, Fiat packaging, and at least 30 years old, bearings don't age, right?
This one felt fine, so I fitted it using some sockets as pushers in my No 5 Record vice.

I'm now ready to reassemble the left-hand hub, strut and stuff, another day.....


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Sandro on July 12, 2021, 02:57:48 PM
Nice work Nigel !

 :)

A.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on July 16, 2021, 06:07:49 PM
Thanks Andrew!

Took it for a short drive just now. I adjusted the clutch while out, it had a bit
too much free play.
The steering is not really feeling any lighter, a little disappointing, and it's still not
self-centering as much as I think it should.

I'll take it for a longer run tomorrow.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: HFStuart on August 02, 2021, 06:51:47 PM
I think the beta/monte box is fairly unique in its use. Maybe Eric can help me out here but apart from the Beta and a few vans I donít think it was used anywhere else.



Ian,

The same box was used on the Fiat Coupe 16V Non turbo so it might have gone into similar era Fiats (1st Gen Tipo etc)


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: squiglyzigly on August 02, 2021, 08:27:39 PM
Hi Stuart,
The tipo box was quite different to the Beta. There seemed to be an evolution of gearboxes through Thema, delta, Fiat coupe, tipo etc but other than some bearings and internal dimension similarities, Iím not aware of any of these gearboxes being closely related to the Beta to share the hard to find parts. I hope Iím wrong and we can find a good source of a available parts.
Iíve just completed a rebuild on my i.e. gearbox running in my Berlina after searching for syncros, hubs and bearings for nearly 18 months.
I dread the idea of doing it again as I felt some of the parts were very lucky finds due to mis-labelling.

As Eric has mentioned before, it ends up stripping several gearboxes and selecting the best bits to make one good one.



Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on August 03, 2021, 08:01:58 PM
A little bit more progress this afternoon.

The distributor has been annoying me for some time as one of the cap clips was
fouling on the inlet manifold.
So I rotated to TDC, marked where the rotor arm points to, whipped it out
and refitted it so that the longer of the two cap clips is now facing the rear.
Perfect.
Reset the timing, fettled the mixture screw, one test drive and all's good.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on August 13, 2021, 11:28:42 PM
More progress.
During the past few days I've changed the other 3 wheel bearings.

I found it really difficult to hear the bearings as my car is quite noisy,[ stainless exhaust] and
there wasn't really any visible wear inside the old bearings. However, a rumble was evident
on all of them during disassembly.

The drive is now noticeably quieter.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Sandro on August 15, 2021, 08:56:50 AM
Nice work Nigel.

( thumbs up )


A.
 


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on August 20, 2021, 02:56:02 PM
I took the hpe to Brands hatch last weekend, and although she ran fairly sweetly I felt
it was a little rich, especially during initial cold running.

Leaning the mixture screw has improved it. Probably a good move anyway as
I took it for its 2nd MOT [in my time] this morning.

It passed with a couple of advisories, outer headlamps poor pattern, OSR shock misty leak, and a small
screen chip. The CO test was 1.046 compared to a max of 4.500, a great result. Credits to
Ian squiglyzigly for the work he did on jetting sizes.

The leaking shock was a surprise as I'd been under there last week doing the wheel bearing. It must
have popped during the trip to Brands.

No matter as all the shocks are on the radar to be changed in the near future along with the springs.

The headlamps were also mentioned last year. I have the Siem variety at present, and the outers are slightly
rusty. If anyone has a pair of as-new spares I'll willingly remove them from your storage.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on October 14, 2021, 05:24:34 PM
The rear of the car had been up on stands for 2 weeks during some wet weather
and when I climbed in to drive it last weekend after I'd replace the rear shocks...horror, the
passenger seat was soaked, as was the carpet.

This was the first time I'd seen any evidence of a sunroof leak. I had
previously cleaned out, or thought I did, the front drain tubes.
Clearly, this didn't work.
I took the seat out, now indoors and dry, and poured a generous amount of absorbent granules
on the areas of wet carpet. They're doing a fine job so far, I'll pull out the wet stuff and replace with
dried-out grit over this weekend. I should have a dry car soon.

And I'll get to doing the tube clearing job again, with a longer prodder this time.


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: WestonE on October 15, 2021, 08:31:17 AM
Hi Nigel

An annoying business. I like the using granules idea. I used to use old towels dried in cycles on radiators. These days I use a stack of de humidifier bags dried on radiators between use. These live in the car over winter drawing out the moisture.
BTW lift the carpet if you have any of the OE Felt left it holds a huge amount of water against the metal work promoting rust.

Eric     


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Nigel on October 15, 2021, 11:09:25 AM
You make a good point Eric.
There's probably original felt in there, so I will. Hindsight says I should have removed the entire carpet
earlier on...!

The granules are still sucking, and the first lot are still drying out indoors, so I'll give it a day or so.

Luckily the seat has survived its soaking!

Cheers, Nigel


Title: Re: My HPE....now a rolling recommission
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on October 15, 2021, 12:22:28 PM
If the car is pointing down hill, or is nose down on stands/ramps, even clear drain tubes can be overwhelmed by a heavy bout of rain. Happened on my 2000ie Coupe.