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General Category => Members Cars => Topic started by: mangocrazy on December 28, 2016, 12:39:28 AM



Title: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on December 28, 2016, 12:39:28 AM
It's been over a year since my Spider 2000's engine expired, while in the hands of a French garagiste, and I've only recently been able to get the engine repatriated and bolted to an engine stand. I'm unable to strip the engine at our place in Sheffield, as my workshop is in the cellar and the prospect of getting a fully built engine down (or up) the cellar steps fills me with dread and a sense of my own mortality...

So the engine is on a stand in the utility room in Stafford, where it will be dismantled, and then the individual components will be ferried back to Sheffield for further work. While cooking the Christmas dinner I managed (much to the dismay of my wife) to remove the cylinder head and take photos of same and on Boxing day the sump pan, oil pump and oil scavenge pipe were removed.

I'm still awaiting final proof of what it was that caused the engine to stop in a partially seized condition.The engine could be rotated back and forth a few degrees, but any more than that and the engine would lock up solid. My current thinking, based on what I've observed of the cylinder head, is that the exhaust valve on cylinder #1 dropped in (for reasons as yet unknown), bending the valve sufficiently to only allow a few degrees of engine rotation.

Equally disturbing are the witness marks on both valves and pistons on all cylinders that would seem to indicate running with incorrect valve timing. A couple of years ago I'd given the car to a (different) French garagiste to replace the cam belt and do an oil/filter change. I'm unsure whether the marks date from that time, or from the few minutes of running the car managed after having its water pump and cam belt replaced (the latter not on my instructions) by the garagiste in our village before it cried enough.

Any comments gratefully welcomed. Here come the photos, in the following order:

Cylinder head, with very obvious witness marks on valves.

Another view of the valves. Exhaust valve on far right looks suspiciously off axis compared to others.

Close up of valves on cylinders #1 and #2

Birds-eye view of the block/pistons. Again - notice witness marks.

View of block from an angle. State of bores looks pretty encouraging. No gouging or wear marks that I can see. Motor only has an indicated 60k miles on clock.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: HFStuart on December 28, 2016, 01:15:57 PM
Kudos for getting the head off during Christmas dinner prep!

Those witness marks are bad, particularly on the valve cut - outs. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find four or more bent valves and possibly cracked piston skirts too.

I wonder if the belt was incorrectly tensioned and jumped a tooth or three and you're now stuck with the auxiliary shaft lobe fouling No.2 rod. Witness marks on the rod next to the top of the bolt ( or on the bolt head ) would be evident.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: peteracs on December 28, 2016, 01:28:41 PM
Not sure I would get away with using the Utility room, no, definitely would never get that past the management, though if the only place.....

I think you are in for complete strip down and check each part and suspect as Stuart says, all the valves which have had contact will have some deformity and I guess the guides will need to be replaced as well, the bottom end should also be checked to see if that has sustained any damage as well as possible issues with the pistons.

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on December 28, 2016, 02:42:07 PM
Yes, the more I look at those photos the worse it appears. I can't believe for a minute that the car could have run for hundreds of miles like that (i.e. since the cam belt was replaced by the 1st garagiste). It has to have happened during the brief period the engine was run after having the water pump and cam belt replaced back in November 2015.

I'm not as concerned as I would otherwise be about the valve/piston contact due to the fact that I'm intending to fit Eric Weston's old Evo head, and brand new pistons and rods. As long as the crank is undamaged I should still be OK (he said, optimistically). Having said that it's a real shame that what had been a very sweet-running engine up until that point could be so easily wrecked by careless work.

The engine itself will be stripped down to its last nut and bolt and then refurbished from the ground up. I'm planning to give the crank to GC to check out, drill and plug etc., as well as balance it to work with a VX flywheel and clutch I'm acquiring. If there's anything remotely amiss with the crank I know GC will find it...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on December 29, 2016, 08:18:14 AM
Graham

Definitely miss timing so expect 8 bent valves and maybe cracked valve guides. The pistons would probably be OK, but you would throw them away for the re bore this engine would be given for a re-build. It makes no sense to re-use the pistons at that age and mileage. So you have a sound crankcase and hopefully a sound crank for re-use. The head would be a reasonable base for a re-build with new guides and new valves.

At least you caught it before the rods broke or the pistons seized.

Eric     


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on December 29, 2016, 09:15:10 AM
Graham

Definitely miss timing so expect 8 bent valves and maybe cracked valve guides. The pistons would probably be OK, but you would throw them away for the re bore this engine would be given for a re-build. It makes no sense to re-use the pistons at that age and mileage. So you have a sound crankcase and hopefully a sound crank for re-use. The head would be a reasonable base for a re-build with new guides and new valves.

At least you caught it before the rods broke or the pistons seized.

Eric     

Eric,

Yes, that's about what I'm expecting to find. The pistons will not be re-used, neither will the rods (I have some new GC Cunningham rods ready to use), so as long as the crank and block are OK it's not the end of the world. Very annoying, but not fatal.

How long would the engine be able to run in a condition like that? From the degree of mis-timing that's apparent from the photos I'm tending more and more to the view that it's the fault of the last garagiste I took it to (the one that replaced the water pump and cam belt). This would be consistent with his story that he left the car idling after completing his (botched) work and 'it just stopped and locked up'.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on December 30, 2016, 09:51:25 PM
Graham

The last garage for sure. If this had been given load and revs it would be in many broken pieces.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on December 31, 2016, 10:22:21 AM
What I don't understand is that he should have heard a 'tinging' noise as soon as he started it up and/or the belt slipped. Every apprentice mechanic must learn that you have to be dead careful on first start up after a belt change? Especially a relatively complex one like the Beta's. Then again, I guess people are just careless.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on December 31, 2016, 01:52:15 PM
Yes, the more I look at it the more I regard it as a complete clusterf***. Greed compounded by stupidity and arrogance. The second garagiste was more interested in pointing out faults the previous guy had made (he'd omitted to secure the water pipe to the back of the bracket that has the pointers for the cam wheels) and was urging me to go and get my money back. If he'd paid more attention himself he wouldn't find himself in receipt of a large bill when I return to the village in April...

What really winds me up is that I did not ask him to replace the cam belt; he simply did that so he could bump the bill up. The cam belt had been changed only a thousand miles or so previously and the mileage it had been changed at was clearly written on the cam cover. I only wanted a new water pump fitting. As a result of this he's caused me a countless amount of inconvenience and a great deal of expense. I think I may be asking a French friend of mine to compose a letter to a solicitor.

I haven't stripped the head yet (been more concerned with getting the sump off and cleaned up), but when I do (probably first week of Jan) I'll post pictures up. If I've learned anything from this little episode it's to only allow people I know and trust near my Beta. Either that or do the job myself.

Thanks for everyone's help and comments.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 19, 2017, 10:30:09 PM
Since I last posted I've managed to make some more progress stripping the engine down in fact the block, shorn of all its studs and ancillaries, is sitting in my van waiting to go to the local engine overhaulers to go in their hot wash. The crank has been removed and appears in generally good health, although I will only be sure of that once Guy Croft has pronounced on its status. When I measured the end float in situ it was 0.18mm (0.007") which is apparently right in the middle of acceptable tolerance (0.002" to 0.012"). This encouraged me...

I've sourced a 228mm VX flywheel from Millieman (thanks!) and that, along with the sump (sans OE baffle plates), clutch gearbox-mounted bracket, flywheel plates and other bits and bobs have been sent for blasting.

I stil haven't got round to stripping the cylinder head, and I may not do so for a while yet, as I'm very tempted to take the head 'as is' to the French garagiste that caused this whole sorry mess and confront him with it.

Now that all the bits are back in Sheffield I'll try and take some pics to illustrate progress.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 21, 2017, 03:45:04 PM
Just a quick pic of the crank and the main bearing shells, bolts and caps bagged up. I was thinking of photographing all the bearing shells individually, but as none of them will be re-used I didn't really see the point. I can't feel any ridges or wear marks in the crank journals, so hopefully it's fit for re-use. There are signs of discolouration, but I'm hoping they will polish out.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on January 21, 2017, 04:23:52 PM
Graham

Good Luck with the crank. It looks OK, but you will only know once GC has measured it.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 21, 2017, 06:56:23 PM
Yes, planning to visit GC this coming Thursday with the crank. I'v just got all the parts back from the blasters and all looks good so I think we're ready. Presumably GC will need the crank, flywheel and clutch outer for balancing purposes? Guy did say he'd be able to check the important dimensions while I waited so I should know on the day whether it's viable or not.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 26, 2017, 10:31:33 PM
I travelled over to Lincoln today and spent a very enjoyable and instructive morning with GC. The good news is that my crankshaft passed all of Guy's measuring routines with flying colours, has been given the GC seal of approval and is fit for purpose. That was a real relief, I must say. It was instructive to watch Guy testing the crank for runout with it mounted on a pair of V blocks and a dial gauge on the centre journal. As far as I could see there was zero runout, and the only time the dial fluctuated was when Guy had to apply pressure to turn the crank. What surprised me was the degree of deflection when Guy pressed with only mild force on the centre of the crank - it registered 10 thou deflection. So the crank is with Guy now to work his magic.

I mentioned to Guy that I was taking the block to an engine reconditioner in Sheffield to have it hot washed, and he suggested taking it to a place that he uses exclusively for such work (and a lot of other machining operations). As I was only using the Sheffield firm because they were local, and the firm Guy recommended (Stanwood Engineering) were on the way back to Sheffield (they're based in Bawtry, about 20 miles from Sheffield), I was happy to take him up on that. I was so glad I did - they have a tremendous operation, with some hugely impressive computer-controlled machinery and they also do a lot of motorbike stuff, so I can see a variety of ways in which I can use their services.

They will definitely be boring the block to suit my new Vick Auto-sourced 10:1 pistons; what was particularly impressive was the way that Phil was able to assure me that there would be sufficient meat for my 84.4mm pistons in the standard bores when overbored just by running his fingers around the bore tops. Apparently bore # 4 is the worst, but they should be able to accomodate any slight discrepancy. The're having an open day on August Bank Holiday Monday, and are expecting a lot of classic cars and bikes, so that sounds like a must-see.

Stanwood will be knocking out the core plugs, hot washing the block in a solution that is completely friendly to the auxiliary shaft bearings, then ultrasonically cleaning the block, and finally facing off the top deck to ensure it's completely flat. With that done, it should be ready for boring to suit my pistons.

So - it finally feels like real progress is being made, after all the false starts.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 27, 2017, 09:04:46 PM
Heartened by the progress made yesterday, when I got home from work I decided to start the necessary modification of the auxiliary shaft, by cutting off and plugging the lobe used to drive the mechanical fuel pump. Photos shown below:

The unmolested shaft sitting on my vice:

The shaft wedged between two blocks of wood, ready to have its nose cut off:

Now in his books, Guy always uses a hacksaw to do the cutting. Personally, ever since I've discovered the delights of an angle grinder, I've always found it equally accurate, a lot quicker and a lot less hassle to use a cutting wheel in the grinder. Here's a pic of a cutting wheel for steel that I can heartily recommend; it's quite simply the best I've ever used. It's only 0.8mm in cross-section so cuts very quickly and cleanly and generates far less heat than thicker discs. And below is the end result. Actual cutting time was no more than than a minute or two, followed up with the results of a quick clean up with a flap disc:

With the lobe cut off, I measured the internal diameter of the oilway with a digital vernier. It came out at pretty much exactly 6.8mm. I was fairly sure that 6.8mm was the recommended tapping clearance for an M8 x 1.25 tap, but needed to check in my trusty Zeus handbook (shown).

Looking in the ISO metric coarse threads, I found the answer. I realise the flash has burned out the heading line, but if you follow the line for O.Dia. of 8.0, under the tapping drill column you will see 6.8mm, for a thread pitch of 1.25 (standard M8 coarse thread pitch). So the oilway hole is the perfect size for tapping for an M8 grub screw. I measured how much depth of oilway there was before encountering the cross drilling, and it worked out at at least half an inch (12.5mm), so tapping to a depth of 8 or 9mm and using an M8 x 10mm grub screw would be about right, leaving a millimetre or two of the grub screw sitting proud of the surface.

I checked on eBay and a pack of 5 M8 x 10mm high tensile (14.9) grub screws costs a miserly £1.10 including postage. That will do me fine. I just need to check that I have an M8 x 1.25 plug tap and then I'll be good to go.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 02, 2017, 03:24:46 PM
Paid Stanwood Engineering in Bawtry another visit today, taking them a selection of camshafts, camboxes, cambox covers, cam buckets, and various seal housings and sundry items. I also took them my Vick Auto 10:1 84.4mm pistons as reference for when boring the block. If bore no 4 is outside limits they can resleeve that particular bore quite easily. The block itself has been through their hot wash and is virtually unrecognisable from the manky old thing it was previously. Even the core plugs have come up as new, and very much look as if they're stainless items. If so I probably won't bother replacing them.

Next step is the ultrasonic bath, which apparently removes the requirement to re-tap stud holes. The threads to clamp the head down will definitely have a tap run down them, but Jonathan reckoned for everything else it probably wouldn't be necessary. All the other bits will be getting the hot wash and ultrasonic treatment.

They've also said they are happy to do a 'short' engine build if required. If I go doen that route I'll do all the block preparation, dressing and deburring, following GC's detailed instructions in his books and will then hand the parts over for them to assemble crankshaft, rods, pistons, aux shaft etc. If nothing else, it saves me buying piston ring compressors. It all depends on price, of course.

Getting quite excited now...  ;D


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on February 02, 2017, 05:11:15 PM
Hi Graham

Great progress. I suggest you check every thread is clean and complete with a tap and be aware core plugs normally rust from the inside out and I have never seen a stainless set. I hope a flex hone will be used and you are right the head bolt threads MUST be cleaned out with a tap. I recommend the full bolt pack from GC for a neat job including the studs and nuts for the sump in place of bolts.

I have found sandblasting and silver spray painting the seals covers give a nice finish as long as you do not blast or paint the machined seal contact faces.

Eric 


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 02, 2017, 10:36:27 PM
Hi Eric,

Yes for the amount of time it takes, it seems silly not to run a tap down all the threads. The ultrasonic will have cleaned most of the crud out so it should be very simple to do. I think I'll get a fibre optic probe to have a look at the back of the core plugs. I have a complete set ready to go on, so it's no sweat to replace them. I'll check on the flex hone, but I doubt GC would trust his reboring to anyone that didn't do that finishing op. I've got to ring them tomorrow so will check.

I was thinking about painting the aluminium seal covers in the same shade I use for the block. Once they've come out of the ultrasonic bath they should be in a perfect state for paint. Bare aluminium always goes 'furry' over time if left untreated anyway. I'm currently thinking of painting the block silver, but that may change. I prefer a lighter shade, if only to quickly show up any possible oil leaks.

So you'd recommend using studs and nuts rather than bolts on the sump? I was planning on using A4 stainless bolts for the sump, but am open to suggestions.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on February 03, 2017, 07:53:03 AM
Graham

I like the studs option on the sump because the nyloc nuts mean the sump stays fully attached in a way bolts never manage and it is easier to fit.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 03, 2017, 07:48:46 PM
Eric,

Yes understand your point. I hadn't thought of using studs and Nylocs, and M6 nylocs in A4 stainless are readily available. I'll do same with mine. For added security you could Loctite the studs in place, as well. Nothing would work loose then.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 17, 2017, 07:43:40 PM
Yesterday I got the call from Stanwood Engineering that my block and sundry engine parts had been through the hot wash and ultrasonic cleaning, and the block had been bored to suit my 84.4mm pistons, without the need of any special chicanery; there was enough meat on the standard bores to do a straight, clean rebore and flex-hone.

So in order, we have:

Various bits and pieces in boxes and trays as picked up from Stanwood:

A couple of views of the block; firstly from above, showing off the deck facing I'd asked them to do, and then from the side, with the flex-honing marks clearly visible. Given the state of the block when they received it, it's scrubbed up particularly well:

When I first arrived, Jonathan told me he had some good news (the block rebored without any issues) and some bad news. The bad news was that both sets of camshafts I'd taken in to them had reacted adversely, and in a way that they'd never seen before, to the ultrasonic cleaning process. The standard cams had shown the worst reaction;below is a photo of the base circle on one of the OE cams. The other OE cam was only marginally better.

It also emerged that the 'Kent cams' that I'd bought secondhand and thought were billets were in fact re-grinds. These weren't quite as badly as affected as the OE ones, but still showed a fair amount of marking. Had I inspected them closer I should have noticed 'FIAT' stamped into the shafts, but it's far easier to see now than when they were dark brown and with a film of oil on them. The surface markings aren't as bad as on the OE cams, but still don't augur well:

Jonathan was very apologetic about it and without any prompting offered me £50 +VAT off the overall price, which was welcome. I can't see how ultrasonic cleaning could have caused such a reaction unless there was some underlying prior issue with the cams. It's a process that is ubiquitous in the automotive industry.

After thinking about it a while, I gave Kent cams a ring and told them my story. They said that it may well be possible to do a very light grind on the lobe faces, taking off around 10 thou to clean up the faces. I'm going to send both sets down to them for their inspection and will probably be guided by their recommendations, unless anyone here has an opinion to the contrary.

Every other component, including the auxiliary shaft, came out just fine. It was just the camshafts that had the adverse reaction. Very odd. I'm not sure whether I should start looking for another set of cams or whether to wait until Kent have given their opinion.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on February 18, 2017, 09:47:26 AM
Did the cams need the full clean? Even if not I, like you, wouldn't have expected such a severe reaction.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 18, 2017, 01:40:36 PM
Probably not, but it seemed like a sensible move at the time to add them to the other parts that really did need the clean/ultrasonic bath. I was wondering what people's view of cam regrinds were. Are they as awful as GC makes out, or is he simply following his normal doctrine of perfection? I've no desire to build this engine with a substandard or flawed part, but if it's just a question of using thicker shims to compensate for the reduced base circle, I'm not sure what the problem is.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on February 19, 2017, 10:35:08 AM
Hi Graham

Sadly I think your cams are scrap and a light skim would not give a good hardened surface. I would not want to risk it. For information (far too late) with cams scotch bright and brake cleaner is normally enough with sometimes 400 the 800 grade dressing where there is oil seal rub.

I have some Bayless cams that might do the job for you, but this might be the point to source another Beta 2000 standard exhaust cam and a GC 3A inlet cam along with GC Vernier cam wheels. If in doubt send GC your cam boxes with the exhaust cam and have him dial in the cam timing for you, unless you really understand this and have the dial gauge protractors and set up plates. Precision timing really can make your engine fly and the CG 3A standard exhaust is a good mix for around 170BHP with 150 FtLbs and revs low enough not to need forged pistons.
PS make sure TDC is perfect when you build the engine and very clearly and precisely marked i.e. not using the cam belt cover.

Good luck

Eric 


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 19, 2017, 10:50:20 AM
Yes Eric, I think they are probably scrap as well. Isn't the GC3A cam getting slightly overkill for my engine? I really want a good torquey, tractable motor that doesn't need to be red-lined to get maximum effect. It will be spending most of its life in the 2000-6000 rpm range with an occasional foray past 6k. I'm aiming for around 155-160 bhp with a broad spread of usable power. And what kind of spec are your Bayless cams? I'll be using the Vernier cam wheels I bought from you many moons ago - they're currently away having the purple anodising replaced with something less lurid.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on February 19, 2017, 01:00:11 PM
I might have a strada 130 exhaust cam and also a standard IE inlet/exhaust, finding time to dig them out might be another question though 😂 let me know if you are
interested and I'll see what I can do



Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 19, 2017, 11:48:42 PM
Hi rossocorsa, I'd definitely be interested in a pair of IE cams, as it was always my intention to use the standard cams as a fallback position if the Kent cams weren't up to snuff. Is the Strada 130 exhaust cam regarded as a performance booster? If so, I may well be up for that as well. I'm not in a tearing hurry as the bottom end probably won't be rebuilt until May/June at the earliest, but I would like to secure the parts I will need in the future.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on February 19, 2017, 11:55:21 PM
I'm using the 130 inlet on my VX not using the exhaust cam as that would be a bit OTT with a blower. It is higher lift and slightly wilder than a standard cam. I'll try to have a look for them but in don't have much time at the moment so remind me if I don't get back to you within a couple of weeks.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 19, 2017, 11:59:43 PM
OK, no problems. I'm in no rush, just trying to make sense of this setback, really. Thanks for the offer - much appreciated.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on February 20, 2017, 01:25:55 PM
Hi Graham

The 3A inlet standard 2000 exhaust cam combination is a nice one for a broad spread of torque and keeping the revs well within the cast piston 7200 RPM rev limit. Not a peaky narrow power band and a common conversion for Monte engine re-builds on road cars using 10:1 or higher compression ratio and a gas flowed head.

If you fit a pair of 3As then you will potentially see more power i.e. up to 200BHP but that peak power will be somewhere like 7700 rpm with a rev limit at 8500. That would break cast pistons!

A Strada 130TC cam has 0.5mm more lift but less duration so not much different than a standard Beta or Monte 2000 exhaust cam for your needs.

Eric     


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on February 20, 2017, 03:05:30 PM
Hi Eric,

Thanks for that; I don't think I'll be going down the inlet/exhaust GC 3A route...! But a 3A inlet/2000 exhaust does sound interesting. Whatever happens I will want a pair of standard 2000 cams as a base setting, I think.

I meant to ask you further about comments you made in an earlier post:

If in doubt send GC your cam boxes with the exhaust cam and have him dial in the cam timing for you, unless you really understand this and have the dial gauge protractors and set up plates. Precision timing really can make your engine fly


So GC will only need my cam box(es) to set up the cam timing? I'd like to give GC the top end and get him to build it up complete, but I don't know if I can afford the bill. I think I need to read and re-read the sections in Guy's books regarding rebuilding the top end.

PS make sure TDC is perfect when you build the engine and very clearly and precisely marked i.e. not using the cam belt cover.


I've got a dial gauge with spark plug inserts to ascertain TDC. Will that be sufficient?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 21, 2017, 01:34:52 PM
I had a chat with GC a few days ago and he mentioned that the limiting factor on whether I could run the 3A inlet/OE exhaust cam setup will be the depth of the valve reliefs on my Vick Auto 10:1 (allegedly) pistons, as the 3A cams have considerably more lift than OE. I foresee a lot of dry-building going on before even the bottom end is finally rebuilt. GC said that you need a minimum of 2mm piston crown to valve clearance and preferably more, so this is something I will need to be certain and get right.

In other news, I've received my sump pan back from blasting and had the BetaBoyz sump baffle kit welded in. After these photos were taken I decided to get another couple of tacks welded in, one in the middle of the 'short' near side and another on the long rear side of the sump. Everything looks and feels good and solid now.

The only thing that concerns me a little is the degree of corrosion and pitting on the front face (presumably where it's been peppered by stone chips). Does this look like the thickness of the steel has been adversely affected?

I'm toying with the idea of treating the spots of flash rust that have developed since blasting (in spite of being kept in a warm, dry environment) and then skimming the front face of the pan with some JB Weld or similar epoxy resin before priming and painting. Does this sound a good idea or am I over-thinking it all?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on March 21, 2017, 02:04:05 PM
I presume you've done a trial fit on the sump? I found out a pain in the proverbial to fit in the vx a lot of fiddly adjustments to get it near right. I can't see a problem with filling the sump exterior is the only way to get a really nice finish.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 21, 2017, 02:56:20 PM
No, the trial fit will come when I get the block back on my engine stand. I'm not expecting it to exactly fly back on... Before I do that I'll be looking for some stainless M6 studs to Loctite to the block, rather than using bolts. Then I can use nyloc nuts to fasten the sump to the block and be as sure as I can be that nothing will vibrate loose.

But I'm sure the bead blasting and welding will have distorted the sump to a degree that it will be a pain to fit.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on March 21, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
Studs are definitely the way to go but of course they make fitting the sump in situ more awkward, easy whilst on a stand. The baffle kit might interfere with the oil pump and/or the return pipe, I'd recommend trial fitting before you go much further.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 21, 2017, 03:18:14 PM
GC is currently refurbishing the oil pump and doing his thing with my crankshaft, so when all that comes back I'll give it a trial fit. I'm in no rush and want to make sure everything is correct. Probably best to do the trial fit before I start any cosmetic filling, as if the sump needs some (ahem) encouragement that could cause any filler to drop off.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on March 22, 2017, 09:10:53 AM
Hi Graham

I agree on the trial fit before finishing paintwork filling the outer sump surface and painting is cosmetic, just be VERY careful to clean the sump internally before fitting finally. I found the sump easier to fit with studs.

Every Beta should have a sump like this the original is hopeless even for enjoying corners on the road.

Eric   


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 12, 2019, 07:58:38 PM
I've a number of threads referring to the (extremely slow) progress on my Beta Spider, but this has the most information so I'll carry on with this one.

The engine block has been painted and the bare bottom end (crank, rods, pistons) has been assembled by Stanwood Engineering and the short engine has been sat on an engine stand for best part of 6 months. My initial plan was to hand the short block, plus the modified head I bought from Eric ages ago, along with all the other bits and pieces (cams, camwheels etc, etc.) to Guy Croft for him to complete that part of the build.

When I rang Guy he politely but firmly informed me that he would not be pepared to assemble and dial in a cylinder head that had been fettled by another tuner (in this case the late Barry Waterhouse of Evo Engineering). This left me in something of a quandary, and the only way out seemed to be to repatriate the original cylinder head from the engine that suffered a major mishap in France and get Guy to use that, as I know that head is bog standard and as it left the factory.

I brought the head back with me from France last weekend and duly set about cleaning it up and removing the valves. Below are photos top and bottom of the manky thing as it arrived back from France. And once I'd removed the valves, the true extent of the damage wreaked by the French garagiste became painfully clear. Only one valve, possibly two, survived unscathed:

I then set about the head with a can of Jizer and a brush, followed up by lots of hot, soapy water. After that I removed as much of the remains of the old head gasket as I could. It certainly looks a lot less manky now, even if it's a long way from Guy's expected standards of cleanliness:

The next step is to take the head and the pieces of valve train that will be re-used (collets, top and bottom valve caps) to a local firm that specialises in vapour blasting. After that I'll run a tap through all the threads and de-burr where appropriate, by which time it should be in a fit state for Guy to work his magic.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: betabuoy on May 13, 2019, 08:39:43 PM
Hi Graham,
Given that you appear to need new valves anyway, are you going to ask Guy to put in larger seats for the inlets?
Chris


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 14, 2019, 10:06:58 AM
Hi Chris,

I did think about that, but have decided to go with standard valve sizes, inlet and exhaust. Cost is definitely a consideration here. Last night I ordered a set of Vick Auto inlet & exhaust valves, along with valve guides and had them sent to a friend who lives in Idaho. He'll ship them to me as a 'gift', hopefully avoiding the steep import duty most items from the US attracts. The whole lot came to 92 dollars (plus 15 dollars shipping within US) and are available off the shelf, so quite a saving.

I'm not aiming for such a lofty target bhp-wise as you. I'll be very happy with 150-155 bhp as long I have good drivability and torque. I'll be using standard cams, Vick Auto 10:1 (allegedly) pistons and DCOE 45 Webers with 36mm chokes and GC offset manifold. I'll get Guy to gas-flow and do his stuff on the head to suit the pistons and also do the top end build and cam timing. The car has a 4-2-1 exhaust fitted already, but the other improvements should help realise its potential (hopefully). I've also acquired an MSD ignition box with matching coil, which I'm hoping will further improve drivability, starting and low speed running.

Just don't ask me when it will all be finished!  ;D


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 09, 2020, 04:35:54 PM
In an attempt to break the logjam and get this thing moving, I took the Barry Waterhouse/Evo head to stanwood Engineering along with my GC Beta manifold (for DCOE Webers) and the set of triple valve spring I bought from Guy a while back. They will match up the manifold to the Beta Inlet tracts and generally strip, inspect and tweak as necessary. The valve that are fitted look in OK shape, but a stripdown will confirm or deny this. I have a full spare set of standard size inlet and exhaust valves (and valve guides to suit) that I bought new from Vick Auto in the USA, so these are backup if needed.

Once I've got the bottom end of the engine ready (a lot of assumptions in that brief and flippant statement) I'll take that and the rest of the top end (cams, camboxes, vernier camwheels etc. etc.) and they have agreed to do the final build. This gets round the problem of Guy not being prepared to work with a head modified by someone else, basically by giving the job to someone else.

All the dealings I've had with Stanwood have been absolutely A1, and indeed Guy uses them for a lot of his work. The GC Beta manifold is machined by them, and Guy personally recommended them to me. Ironic that Guy's perfectionist approach has nudged me towards giving Stanwood the work that I had intended Guy to do. I wonder how much other work he has passed up as a result of that approach.

I'm not knocking Guy here, in fact I'm slightly concerned that he may be painting himself into a corner by his insistence on not trusting anyone else's work. I logged into his site recently, and it really is a bit of a ghost town these days. Guy was bemoaning how times are hard and work is scarce, but I think the answer is in his own hands.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on August 13, 2020, 10:50:27 PM
Well, it's taken a while, but my engine is now entirely in the hands of Stanwood Engineering. They already had my cylinder head and inlet manifold, and on Friday of last week I took the short engine, flywheel, cams, camboxes and assorted valve train components, fasteners, gaskets (including the MLS head gasket sourced by Eric Weston) down to Bawtry and left it all with them. As everyone else has they have suffered major challenges due to Covid-19, including a complete shutdown for 2-3 months earlier in the year, but now they are back in harness and are absolutely deluged with work. Thankfully I have now progressed to an active slot in their scheduling, so I can only hope that 2020 will see my Spider engine completely reassembled; some 5 years after it suffered its terminal mishap at the hands of an incompetent French garagiste. No-one ever said this would be easy...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on August 14, 2020, 09:31:39 AM
Hi Graham

Perhaps send them some ARP M10 Head studs from Delta Parts https://deltaparts1.wordpress.com/deltaparts-shop/engine-parts-modified-section-2/ They need thread sealant going into the block to stop water creep but are stronger than any bolt solution and a fine match for the gasket. ARP's website has fitting instructions and them come with the right installation grease.

I hope the is helps.

Eric
PS I use them on the Montecarlo and the Spider VX.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on August 14, 2020, 02:02:00 PM
Hi Eric, I'll check those out. Guy has supplied me with a set of his M10 allen head bolts and heavy washers - will these not be good enough?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on August 15, 2020, 02:56:45 PM
Hi Graham

The parts from Guy will do the job nicely. Studs are better but you do not need them if you have the GC bolts for your application.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on August 18, 2020, 11:43:48 PM
Thanks Eric.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on October 25, 2020, 01:20:54 PM
I received a phone call from Stanwood a few days ago advising me that my engine had been completed, so on Friday I drove down to Bawtry and collected it, spurred on by the fact that South Yorkshire would be heading into 'Tier 3' Covid status at midnight of the same day. Foolishly I didn't take a camera with me to photograph the engine, as I was more preoccupied with how I would unload the engine at the other end of the journey. But all worked out fine in the end and the engine, sat on its home brewed wooden 'dolly' is now ensconced in the corner of the breakfast room adjacent to a radiator in the house in Stafford. Pictures will follow as soon as I can get back there.

The next step is to dress the engine with all the ancillaries - water rails, brackets, cam belt cover, starter motor, alternator, distributor etc. etc. Which reminds me - before I can refit the distributor it needs to go for a full refurbish - something I should really have organised while the engine was away being re-built. Ho hum...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on November 19, 2020, 11:00:25 PM
It's taken me this long to get back to where the Beta engine is being stored, what with lockdown etc. I had a brief chance today to take a few quick pics of the motor swathed in industrial grade clingfilm and mounted on my home-brewed trolley (for ease of movement). I particularly like the one of the gold powder-coated cam boxes seen through plastic. Reminds me vaguely of a Cocteau Twins album cover...

I'll leave it in the plastic wrap for now, but I need to start dressing the engine with all ancillaries, and will need to get the flywheel on soon as well. At some point it will need to leave the trolley and be returned to the engine stand which then means it takes up a lot more space. At present it's tucked away in the corner of the dining room, close to a radiator. Unfortunately this happy arrangement cannot last for long.



Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on November 20, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
That is a very nice trolley and I like the engine as well!

Cheers

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on November 20, 2020, 05:17:00 PM
I've never liked the idea of an engine sitting on the floor on its sump pan. And it makes life much easier if the engine can be moved around the place easily. The castors are rated at 160kg each, so easily take the weight.

I'm currently working on a cunning plan to mount the engine to my engine stand using the 4 x M8 tappings arranged in a rectangle just above the sump on the back of the engine. GC used these mounting points for most of his engine builds, but it will need an adaptor plate made up before it will fit on my stand. So today I've been drilling a mixture of 8mm and 12mm holes in a piece of 12mm plate using my trusty Startrite Mercury pillar drill. Next thing is to make some stand offs from 25mm rod, but that can wait for another day.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: SPIT TC on November 24, 2020, 09:12:56 PM
The soft gold cam covers are very attractive , I might have to copy those Graham . ;)


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on November 24, 2020, 10:04:56 PM
The soft gold cam covers are very attractive , I might have to copy those Graham . ;)
Cheers, glad you agree :) I did think about a number of colours, but figured that gold would work with the blue of the engine bay and add a touch of class. It also works with the Hammerite silver of the block and the bare ali of the cylinder head.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 28, 2021, 03:14:23 PM
I've at long last removed the shrink wrap from the engine that's come back from Stanwood and teried to re-acquaint myself with what are my next steps. The first thing I intended to do was to re-fit the piece that provides timing marks to the OE camwheels, connects to the top water rail and provides mounting points for the cam belt guard. As soon as I came to fit this I realised that it was an impossibility as the engine nw has adjustable camwheels fitted and these are far bulkier depth-wise. I did a trial fit and it was clear that to be able to fit the piece it would need a standoff of approx 10mm, which would of course push the cam belt guard out by the same amount. Does the fitment of adjustable camwheels of necessity mean that the timing mark indicator can no longer be fitted (or will require serious surgery)?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on January 28, 2021, 04:17:01 PM
Hi Graham You might need to be the pointers straight before fitting it. Alternatively just cut them off so there is no touch on the cam wheels and use the raised casting on the cam carriers. I actually use a diamond file line on the cam inside the cam box with reference scores in the cam box under the cover.

NB this is more accurate and something I do building the engine up marking 100 110 and 120 reference positions using the GC approach for dialing cams in.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on January 28, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I was wondering how you went about lining everything up when changing belts using adjustable camwheels, so thanks for the pointers (no pun intended...) I think I'll try and acquire a secondhand item and butcher that, as the one off my original engine has been plated and I'd rather not hack that about. I think cutting the pointers off makes most sense - remove any possibility of obstruction.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 05, 2021, 06:12:47 PM
Yesterday I was able to spend some time on the Beta engine but accomplished the square root of bugger all, although I have expanded my knowledge of bolt thread pitches and sizes. Peter had very kindly sent me a spare pressed steel bracket that contains the timing pointers to match up with the holes in the OE camwheels, and I had butchered that to my satisfaction such that pointy pieces of metal no longer interfered with the bolts on my adjustable camwheels. Verifying that fact was to be the sum total of my achievements for the day.

I was intending to fit the top and back water rails, camwheel bracket, engine stabiliser/water rail bracket, oil breather and make a stab at getting the distributor approximately timed up. I was thwarted in all these attempts, mainly due to the interconnected nature of most of the parts mentioned. To fit the top water rail I knew that I needed socket head allen bolts to fasten it to the head but had overlooked that fact that I needed a long ball head driver to get at the bolts that shelter under the rail. I could have tightened the bolts down with an allen key but really wanted to torque them up equally and accurately and for that I need the long ball head driver.

At the same time as trial fitting the top rail, I fitted the camwheel bracket as they bolt up together. The bottom fixing (bracket to cylinder head) has quite a shallow tapping in the head. I tried using an M6 x 16 allen bolt, but that bottomed out before clamping the bracket. I then tried the only other short bolt I had (M6 x 10) but that didn't have enough thread in play for my comfort. So, on to eBay to grumpily order some M6 x 14 stainless allen bolts.

I next turned my attention to the back rail, and started looking for the sheet of gasket paper that I know I have. After fruitless searching everywhere for half an hour I gave up, frustration levels rising.

I then decided to trial fit the engine stabiliser/water rail bracket and see how it all lined up with the water rails for a trial fit. I'd bought new stainless bolts for this, an M10 x 30 and an M12 x 35, both in coarse thread. The M10 screwed in nicely but the M12 bolt jammed after a couple of threads. I tried various M12 bolts I had in fine and coarse pitch and none would screw in further than a couple of threads. By now small amounts of steam were starting to escape from my ears. I later learned, after trying out various taps in my spare cylinder head, that the M12 bolt has a thread pitch of 1.25 (fine/extra fine), but the M10 bolt is a standard 1.5 coarse pitch thread. Good old Lancia... Hit eBay to order M12 x 1.25 x 35mm bolts.

Casting around desperately for something to achieve before I had to come home, I tried the oil breather, freshly returned from the vapour blaster and with a new right angle rubber hose. I'd even had the spring clips electroless nickel plated. Except that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get the spring clips to fit around the tube. I can only assume that the 'new' tube has a thicker cross-section than the tired old one. After grovelling around on the floor for the sixth or seventh trying to find the escaped spring clip I gave up and (eBay again) ordered some double ear Oetiker clamps of the right size. Completely flattened by now, I didn't even attempt to time up the distributor...

Not one of my more successful days...



Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on March 05, 2021, 07:08:13 PM
I can relate to days like that. You have solved multiple problems so when you revisit it is strangely easy. I have built up kits of bolts to have them to hand so now I just waste loads of time choosing bolts and maintaining the stock!

Plating is fantastic for creating good bolts from large buckets of old bolts. BUT you have to sort out all hose shiny bolts into some form of order and storage which makes watching paint dry seem exciting.

Eric   


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 05, 2021, 07:56:26 PM
Thanks Eric. I went through the exercise of sorting out my collection of hex head bolts/nuts and Allen bolts into M4/M5/M6/M8/M10/M12 classifications a while back. I think I now need subdivisions for fine and extra fine. I could probably cover a small wall with bins with the variations I have if I had the space.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 12, 2021, 07:00:47 PM
Went back for another try today and experienced further setbacks, the main one being the rear water rail efusing to line up with the multi-functon bracket that bolts into the head by cylinder 4. It's not even as if it's close - the holes in the back rail bracket are 10-15mm distant from those on the main bracket and will not be persuaded to get any closer. I have two back rails and sent the least corroded one off for electroless nickel plating some while back. This is the one that refuses to fit. I'll dig out the other water rail and try that, but is anyone aware of any variation in these parts between models/years? The back water rail was fixed to the water pump housing but not tightened up fully, allowing the rail to move within reason.

In other news the universal oil filter block adaptor/take off point for an oil cooler arrived today from Torques UK, and it's bang on. Just what was needed. Very impressed with their knowledge and prompt service.

Here's the link to the bits I ordered:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torques-Universal-Oil-Sandwich-Plate-Kit-In-Black-AN-10-JIC-10-3-4-UNF-M20x1-5/360783211905 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torques-Universal-Oil-Sandwich-Plate-Kit-In-Black-AN-10-JIC-10-3-4-UNF-M20x1-5/360783211905)

And as I won't be fitting an oil cooler until the engine is reunited with the body, I ordered a pair of blanking caps:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AN-10-AN10-AN-10-7-8-UNF-End-Cap-With-Viton-O-ring-Seal-In-Stealth-Black/173545902844 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AN-10-AN10-AN-10-7-8-UNF-End-Cap-With-Viton-O-ring-Seal-In-Stealth-Black/173545902844)


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on March 13, 2021, 01:26:04 PM
The water rail thing happened with my previous 1300 Coupe when I changed the water pump. All done in situ but I removed the flywheel end bolt to make fitting to the pump easier. Once the new pump was fitted I was never able to refit that bolt, like yours it was a good 10mm out.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 13, 2021, 05:03:17 PM
The water rail thing happened with my previous 1300 Coupe when I changed the water pump. All done in situ but I removed the flywheel end bolt to make fitting to the pump easier. Once the new pump was fitted I was never able to refit that bolt, like yours it was a good 10mm out.

Yes, I've fitted a 'new' (NOS) water pump that has the deeper Monte/VX impeller so that could well be it. I'll be trying out my spare back water rail, and may well resort to removing the bracket and either welding it back on in a better location or making up a new bracket and welding that on. At least with the engine out of the car and not in use I have slightly more options.

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought I was going mad for a minute...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: squiglyzigly on March 13, 2021, 05:44:19 PM
Iíve had the same problem. My guess is the bends in the pipe change with age, maybe constant heating and cooling.

Ian


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 25, 2021, 10:17:09 PM
Managed to track down some studs of the preferred sizes and fitted them to the head earlier today. I used green (strong) Loctite on the inlet studs and Loctite 272 (High temperature) on the exhaust studs. When I came to offer up the inlet manifold and gasket to the head a couple of things became apparent. Firstly, the gasket (which has each side labelled up by Stanwood for correct fitment) fouled the cambox base gasket in two places and the head gasket in two places. As neither cambox base or head gasket are amenable to modification, I got the Stanley knife and steel rule out and trimmed the inlet manifold gasket to suit.

Having overcome that little hurdle, I now encountered a more intractable one. The GC angled inlet manifold for twin DCOEs has machined areas around the stud holes, but on a couple of these places the machining does not extend far enough to allow a nut and washer to seat correctly. In one place there is no machining at all. Lastly on one of the top mounts there is simply no room to screw a nut onto the stud, so the wall of the relevant inlet tract will need relieving on the outside. Consequently I rang up Stanwood Engineering (who had originally done the machining work on the manifold for GC, back in the day) prior to returning the manifold for them to do the necessary fettling.

I'll wait and see how things transpire, but I'd be loath to pay for their time fixing these issues as they were the people entrusted by Guy to do the machining work in the first place. With Guy's unfortunate demise I guess lines of responsibility become blurred, but hopefully Stanwood will do the right thing anyway.

No-one ever said this was going to be easy...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on March 26, 2021, 08:44:21 AM
Hi Graham

You will not like this but. Use cap head bolts to secure the GC inlet manifold with snor washers and plain washers. Make sure the inlet manifold gasket does not restrict the flow from manifold to port. If it does it will need to be relived with a Dremel sanding drum. Or you replace the gasket with top quality RTV sealant thin film. GC used the Wurth product.

I will listen for the scream.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 27, 2021, 02:41:30 PM
Hi Eric,

Not so much of a scream, just the usual expletive... I left the inlet manifold with Stanwood, so will see what they can bring to the table. My intention was to use Aerotight nuts on both inlet and exhaust manifolds, as I recall that back in the day whem my Spider was a daily driver, the exhaust manifold nuts would loosen off with monotonous regularity. Is there a particular reason why you favour cap head bolts over studs and Aerotight nuts? Or do you regard cap head bolts and Schnorr (spelling?) washers as superior?

I must admit that the prospect of removing studs held in with green Loctite does not fill me with deep joy. They will need some serious heat applied to permit removal.

Stanwood have carefully matched the head to manifold, to the point of matching the inlet gasket and indicating which side of the gasket faces the head, and which side faces the manifold. Visual inspection confirms everything lines up just so.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on March 27, 2021, 07:11:25 PM
Hi Graham

The reason for the cap heads is simply clearance to the casting. The Snor washers are just a better locking washer and they are compact.

Eric

It sounds like Stanwoods have done a neat job.
 


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on March 28, 2021, 12:48:33 PM
Hi Graham

The reason for the cap heads is simply clearance to the casting. The Snor washers are just a better locking washer and they are compact.

Eric

It sounds like Stanwoods have done a neat job.
 

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the confirmation. I'll see how the manifold fits when I get it back from Stanwoods. If there are still clearance problems I'll use cap head bolts and snor washers on the offending fixing points and leave the rest as studs. Yes, I'm pleased with all the work Stanwood have done for me; it's of a uniformly high standard. I know that GC trusted them with a lot of his work, which tells you all you need to know.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 01, 2021, 03:47:35 PM
Yesterday I verified that my spare (and rather ropey) back water rail had exactly the same problem as the 'best' one, so the good one will go back to Firma-Chrome to have the electroless nickel plating chemically stripped, then I'll remove the weld holding the bracket to the pipe (as gently as I can) and see if moving the bracket will allow it to fit. I'm not very happy leaving it bolted up at one end and flapping about at the other unless it's absolutely necessary.

I'm pretty sure now that it was fitment of the SKF branded water pump that caused the pipe not to line up. It was the Monte/VX style pump with deeper impeller, so maybe that had something to do with it?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on April 01, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
Yesterday I verified that my spare (and rather ropey) back water rail had exactly the same problem as the 'best' one, so the good one will go back to Firma-Chrome to have the electroless nickel plating chemically stripped, then I'll remove the weld holding the bracket to the pipe (as gently as I can) and see if moving the bracket will allow it to fit. I'm not very happy leaving it bolted up at one end and flapping about at the other unless it's absolutely necessary.

I'm pretty sure now that it was fitment of the SKF branded water pump that caused the pipe not to line up. It was the Monte/VX style pump with deeper impeller, so maybe that had something to do with it?

Interestingly I had the same problem, I ordered a stainless steel bottom coolant pipe and it wouldn't fit! I would suggest you need a VX one. The supplier of the pipe made me a new one which JUST fits.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 01, 2021, 10:10:10 PM
Do you have a supplier for a stainless VX back water rail? That would be the best of all worlds, I think...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on April 01, 2021, 11:11:39 PM
Do you have a supplier for a stainless VX back water rail? That would be the best of all worlds, I think...
Well kind of yes but then again no...... He is in Spain and a totally honest and good guy I think but it is rather cottage industry so I am slightly reluctant to recommend purely as it depends upon your expectations. He is also very slow but didn't expect payment until the goods were ready. It's all a long story. You are always welcome to call and have a look at mine and see what you think.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 02, 2021, 03:10:39 PM
That's OK. I think that once I've relocated the fixing bracket/tab further along the pipe that it should be fine. But I'll bear your man in Spain in mind for future reference.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on April 02, 2021, 04:03:29 PM
This does all rather the raise the question of subtle variations between types and models, the first pipe the Spanish guy sent wouldn't fit at all, I still don't really know if it was an error or if VX pipes are ever so slightly different. The VX does only have one outlet on the offside compared to most but otherwise looks similar but the first one I was sent wouldn't reach around the end of the block. The new one he has sent is much better but still very tight. I also wonder if the crankcase end covers vary in thickness as this is where it fouls?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 02, 2021, 07:59:52 PM
Like you say, that is worrying. If it wouldn't even reach around the block that's a serious mismatch in the order of centimetres, not just a couple of mm. I'm reasonably confident that once the bracket has been removed from my pipe that it will bolt up square to the water pump flange and there will be clearance between pipe and block. I may have to fab a new bracket, but that's not the end of the world.

What does bother me is if we ever got round to doing a group buy on top and back water rails, how would we arrive at a specification that fits all permutations? At some point we may be forced into doing this, as the supply of sound water rails is getting scarce.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: peteracs on April 02, 2021, 11:11:59 PM
Hi Graham

I would think on the rear one that having it slightly too long is infinitely better than too short as a washer or two could be used to take up the gap.

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on April 02, 2021, 11:42:40 PM
Like you say, that is worrying. If it wouldn't even reach around the block that's a serious mismatch in the order of centimetres, not just a couple of mm. I'm reasonably confident that once the bracket has been removed from my pipe that it will bolt up square to the water pump flange and there will be clearance between pipe and block. I may have to fab a new bracket, but that's not the end of the world.

What does bother me is if we ever got round to doing a group buy on top and back water rails, how would we arrive at a specification that fits all permutations? At some point we may be forced into doing this, as the supply of sound water rails is getting scarce.

It's actually a matter of mm not cm! It's deceptively precise to get that pipe right not much room for error. Where it sweeps around the block there is very little margin at all it only needs to be at slightly the wrong angle or turning a few mm too early and it will foul on the crankcase cover before it can fully go around the block.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 03, 2021, 11:40:11 AM
Yes, definitely a few mm longer would be the best option, Peter. And I know what you mean - a couple of mm where the pipe sweeps round the block translates to a bigger difference by the time you get to the bracket. If I still have problems with the bracket removed I'll look at having a (very) short section of pipe welded in to give the required length.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: Nigel on April 03, 2021, 08:07:48 PM
This will sound like a bodge, but would it be feasible to introduce
a rubber hose coupling somewhere along its run to offer the flexibility needed?

I realise the exhaust is nearby, so positioning is a factor. maybe an additional heat shield?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 03, 2021, 08:27:23 PM
This will sound like a bodge, but would it be feasible to introduce
a rubber hose coupling somewhere along its run to offer the flexibility needed?

I realise the exhaust is nearby, so positioning is a factor. maybe an additional heat shield?

Hi Nigel,

I had considered that, and I don't think it counts as a bodge. You would need to run a bead of weld round the ends of the pipe sections to be joined to assist with securing pipe clamps, and it would introduce a degree of flexibility in positioning that would be welcome. Certainly an option if Plan A doesn't work out.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: peteracs on April 03, 2021, 08:51:28 PM
Not sure that would help as you then only have one support for each pipe. The heat from the exhaust also adds to the complication.

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: rossocorsa on April 04, 2021, 08:29:51 AM
I think it would get too hot to be reliable. The pipes do fit normally, last time I looked mark had a VX bottom pipe refurbished for sale that would be a solution.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 04, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
Not sure that would help as you then only have one support for each pipe. The heat from the exhaust also adds to the complication.

Peter
The pipe would be supported at both ends, with only a short flexible mid section, but I agree it's definitely inferior to a full metal construction. Agree that exhaust heat adss an extra layer of concern. I'm hopeful that I won't need to consider that option, though. It's definitely the option of last resort.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 04, 2021, 04:31:06 PM
I think it would get too hot to be reliable. The pipes do fit normally, last time I looked mark had a VX bottom pipe refurbished for sale that would be a solution.
Yes, it's probably marginal at best. I'll check out Mark's listing.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on April 07, 2021, 09:18:55 PM
After looking at the problem from all angles, I decided that the only way the pipe would fit was if the bracket was removed and either relocated or a new bracket fabricated and welded to the pipe. So I apprehensively fired up the angle grinder with slitting disc attached and cut through the 5 welds holding the bracket to the pipe, thankfully without doing too much collateral damage to the pipe. Once free of the bracket, the pipe wrapped round the block without fouling anything and could be manoeuvred to a suitable position without any effort. There's enough slack in the flange mounting holes to give quite a range of adjustment, as it happens.

It quickly became apparent that the existing bracket would not be able to be re-purposed and that a new bracket would have to be fabricated and welded on. Time to break out the cardboard and make a CAD template. What was also rather alarming was the degree of corrosion that existed between the pipe and bracket. Being only tack-welded in place, and not sealed off, corrosion can (and does) form between the two skins. At least I'll be able to arrest that particular piece of rot while figuring out a way of making it fit to the multi-purpose bracket.

In other news, the A4 stainless M10 x 1.0 drain plugs arrived and one of them was fitted to the block, using generous amounts of Wurth CU800 anti-seize paste. It's a taper thread and screwed in leaving about 2 mm of the total 10 mm depth proud of the block. I'm cautiously hopeful that it should be a long term solution.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 10, 2021, 11:49:36 AM
Progress has largely stalled on the engine front, as the inlet manifold is still away at Stanwood's being 'fettled' and I've only just got the lower water rail back from the platers. After removing the original thin steel bracket I gave it to the platers to chemically strip the electroless nickel plating in preparation for welding a different bracket on (fabricated by me). Unfortunately they misunderstood my intentions and re-plated it... The main man there assures me that it won't hurt the welding process, in fact he maintains that EN plating is sometimes done as prep for welding. We shall see...

With time on my hands I've been giving the adjustable camwheels some thought, and am seriously thinking of putting the OE one piece cast camwheels back on. If the engine was to be running uprated cams, big valves et. etc. then adjustable camwheels would certainly be required. I'm not. I will be running standard cams , slightly increased compression ratio and standard valve sizes. And DCOE 45 Webers (36mm choke), of course.

So why do I need adjustable camwheels? As far as I can see I won't need to deviate from standard cam timing and will actually be making life more difficult for myself when it comes to changing belts, as I can no longer use the camwheel marks and associated pointers. What are people's view on this? I can't see much in the way of upside, only downside.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: peteracs on May 10, 2021, 01:07:20 PM
Hi Graham

I guess it depends how accurate the original wheels are in terms of actual timing. Maybe someone else has measured it?

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on May 10, 2021, 05:48:06 PM
Hi Graham

Precision in cam Timing vs accurate TDC makes a difference and gives you the chance to mark the cam boxes for 100 degrees to 120 degrees and check for valve clash before building with a short belt (VX drive belt). It is not unknown to gain 10BHP on these engines by accurate cam positioning and small known changes.

No Vernier wheels no accuracy.

Eric
PS if TDC is not accurate and well marked you are in a world of trouble.   


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 12, 2021, 09:15:00 PM
OK, I was probably being rather impetuous. On thinking further about it, as long as all pulleys are marked up and reasonable care is taken, replacing a cam belt with vernier camwheels should be no less troublesome than with OE camwheels. I would probably feel happier if all the pulleys could be locked in some way, but that is clearly not an option.

And having spent good money with Stanwoods to build up the top end with vernier camwheels, it would be a waste of time and money (and downright foolish) to revert to OE camwheels. As Eric says, it would probably also throw away valuable bhp before the engine had even run.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 20, 2021, 11:31:43 PM
I managed to make a small but pleasing amount of progress on the back/bottom water rail saga. I've cut off the original mounting bracket that should bolt up to the multi-purpose bracket by cylinder 4 (but was at least 10mm out with the new water pump fitted), and have been nervously fabricating an alternative bracket to cater for the altered pipe location/trajectory. With the rudimentary shaping tools I have (and the lack of skill) it's not going to be factory perfect but as long as it provides a good degree of support then I'll be happy.

Today I bolted the rail securely to the water pump at one end, fixed my new bracket to its intended location and then clamped the two together as best I could while drilling holes through both to allow me to rivet the two parts together prior to taking the assembly to my tame welders for permanent fixing. Once they've secured the bracket to the rail I think I'll drill the rivets out and get them to finish the job with a couple of spot welds to seal the holes. Then it will be back to the platers and perhaps then I can finally fix the back/bottom rail permanently to the engine.

I was also able to convince myself that there is working clearance between the adjustable camwheels and the yellow plastic cam guard. I'd got it into my head that the camwheels would foul the guard, which is one of the reasons I was thinking of reverting to OE camwheels. They don't foul the guard and they are staying.



Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: peteracs on May 21, 2021, 09:55:04 AM
Hi Graham

Not too shabby a job, I would definitely get the rivets out and have it welded up as they will undoubtably leak eventually as they are.

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 21, 2021, 02:53:02 PM
Hi Graham

Not too shabby a job, I would definitely get the rivets out and have it welded up as they will undoubtably leak eventually as they are.

Peter

Yes, that was my thinkig as well. If it can go wrong, it will. I took the pipe to my local welders and they did a very nice job of putting a seam around most of the 3 edges of the bracket. The back of the bracket will be left open as to try and weld that would cause a lot of heat distortion and would throw the mounting points out. I've now drilled the rivets out so will head back to the welders on Monday morning to get those holes spot welded. After that time for a final trial fitment before getting the unit re-plated (for the third time...)


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 21, 2021, 07:58:52 PM
A small point, I'd say filling the rivet holes would be "plug" welding. Spot welding joins sheet metal without any holes. It's a lovely neat job though  so no need to apologise for your fabrication skills.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: peteracs on May 21, 2021, 08:32:51 PM
Hi Graham

As a belt and braces you could pressure test for any leaks before fitting?

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 21, 2021, 10:10:20 PM
A small point, I'd say filling the rivet holes would be "plug" welding. Spot welding joins sheet metal without any holes. It's a lovely neat job though  so no need to apologise for your fabrication skills.

You're right. My welding terminology was a bit off there. Spot welding is normally robotised, as far as I know and is commonly used in car assembly lines. Now it's been welded it certainly feels nice and solid.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 21, 2021, 10:13:43 PM
Hi Graham

As a belt and braces you could pressure test for any leaks before fitting?

Peter

If I could think of a way of doing that, I would. But with all the various take-offs along the rail it wouldn't be easy. I'll probably just settle for filling that section of the pipe with water and ensuring no leaks.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 22, 2021, 07:48:29 PM
Spot welding doesn't have to be robotised. Before production lines were automated cars were spot welded with hand held units. You are supposed to be able to build a spot welder out of an old microwave oven, something that has fascinated me for some time.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 22, 2021, 10:44:03 PM
The whole process of welding fascinates me, and has done since I was a teenager (a long time ago!). I've got a cheap SMAW (stick) welding set that I practice with, but anything that requires a good finish or requires strength I hand over to the professionals. Which is basically everything... I'm told that stick welding is the best to start on, as if you can master that then other forms of welding will come easier. But I haven't progressed beyond making ugly blobs on test metal yet...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 23, 2021, 01:41:24 PM
I haven't done stick welding but suspect that is most difficult. I did gas welding in a metalwork evening class and loved it. I found being able to watch the colour of the heated metal gave very fine control as did feeding welding rod in to the weld pool by hand. The down side is having to invest in and store the kit. Likewise traditional MIG welding which requires keeping a hulking great gas bottle cluttering up the garage. I recently got a little gasless MIG which is much more convenient. The downside is that being cheap it doesn't have fine control down to gentle settings for thin metal which made it useless for trying to weld up a hole in a top water rail. The current is set with two rocker switches allowing four pre-set amperages whereas the old traditional MIG has a high / low range switch then a rotating knob allowing fine control and very low power when needed.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: Nigel on May 23, 2021, 01:59:00 PM
Being a reasonably competent stick welder, I also bought a gasless MIG
thinking it would be easy to learn, and struggled. I don't know if
it's me or the machine.
I wish I knew someone with the equipment to have a go at proper MIG and TIG.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 23, 2021, 05:09:00 PM
I've made friends with a couple of brothers who run a family welding business (their father started it), and it amazes me the way they just know exacrtly what settings to use for what type and thickness of material. They weld everything from tiny stainless pieces used in surgery to ship's propellers that take up half the unit. Most of the stuff they do is TIG, but there is also a fair biit of MIG work. But they are using welding sets that cost upwards of £2000, so that also plays a part.

I did buy myself a MIG set a while back (a middle of the range Clarke gas set), but haven't got round to getting the Argon mix gas bottle for it (hobby bottles are a waste of time in my opinion). Now that lockdown is easing I must get that sorted and start practising with it.

Proper gas welding with filler rods requires use of oxy-acetylene kit, which is a bit like inviting an unexploded bomb into your shed/garage. I'd love to have a go, but no way would I consider storing the bottles in any domestic premises.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 24, 2021, 11:37:58 AM
Getting a good weld needs practice and plenty of it. Before doing a job I get up to speed on some scrap steel of the same thickness I am going to work on. With MIG I think paying for good equipment makes a lot of difference.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on May 24, 2021, 02:47:46 PM
I am very Please with my recent R Tech 180 inverter MIG. It needs less skill from me. Also have an argon gas mix is far better than just CO2.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 24, 2021, 08:25:18 PM
I used CO2 Argon mix. Finding a supplier where you don't have to rent the bottles makes it more cost effective if you only weld occasionally.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 24, 2021, 08:48:15 PM
This thread has energised me to restart converting my Clarke 160TM to a Euro torch. I removed the old (and rather rubbish) Clarke OE torch so I can start doing the work to fit the new torch. I agree that it's the gas bottle rental that kills you when doing hobby welding. It's only infrequent use and the rental costs mount up very quickly. Thankfully there is a supplier near me that doesn't charge the normal monthly or yearly rental, just a five year usage along with the fill price to start with, then just a refill price after that. CO2/Argon mix works out at £50 per 5 year usage, then £21 for a refill of a 10 litre bottle. For a 24 litre bottle it's £75 and £40 respectively. Bigger bottles are available.

I've heard very good things about the R-Tech range, but at present I think I just need to learn how to stick metal together. Once I'm proficient I could well be in the market for something like that.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on May 25, 2021, 07:59:23 AM
After years of hauling the welder and gas bottle about I finally got my kit onto a welding trolley allowing a mid size gas bottle and a lot less hassle when you want to use it. I found replacing the hopeless gas bottle chains with webbing straps and using more straps to secure the welder to the trolley worked nicely. This was after years of using a much overhauled secondhand Clarke 150TE MIG. The R Tech Inverter MIG is lighter and genuinely superior without the crazy cost of Pro gear.

I also bought a Nomad portable welding bench and clamps. Sort of a Workmate for welding. The metal table means less struggling to fit the earth return to the work piece. Add TIG gloves in place of the standard thick items and fine control is easier.

Credit to Stuart for the idea on the R Tech MIG.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on May 25, 2021, 10:30:01 AM
Definitely agree on the TIG welding gloves, Eric. They are a major improvement over, well, anything.  I'll take your advice on securing gas bottles once I finally sign up for some CO2/Argon mix. What bottle size are you using? I'm not exactly sure how big (size wise) 10 litre and 24 litre gas bottles will be. Shape is also a consideration. Short and dumpy would be greatly preferrred to tall and thin.

I'll also check out the Nomad portable welding bench. Doies anyone use either air fed welding masks or other PPE to avoid breathing in welding fumes?


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 25, 2021, 08:23:28 PM
There are plenty of places now that do rent free gas bottles. You pay a deposit for the bottle and keep it as long as you like. Theoretically you get your deposit back if you give up welding but since going gasless my son has kidnapped my gas bottle. I'm not sure I'll see it again.

I too have moved to TIG gloves and now wouldn't use anything else.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 15, 2021, 06:21:32 PM
The GC angled  manifold for use with block-mounted distributor was collected from Stanwood Engineering after they 'fettled' it and after enlarging some of the stud holes it was bolted up to the head, albeit begrudgingly. It's a nightmare trying to get all the nuts bolted up and some of the nuts require the manifold to be 10-15mm away from the head in order to get the threads started; all due to the angled intake tracts. But it's on now, and as consistently tight as I can manage, given that it's impossible to get a torque wrench (or even a socket) on 5 out of the 6 nuts. It's pretty much open-ended spanners all the way. Are slim or specially angled spanners (or both) available for such an application?

Photos will be provided in due course.

The next part of the 3D jigsaw puzzle that is my 2 liitre engine is the dipstick and how it's mounted. I suspect that the dipstick holding bracket from this engine has been snaffled for use on the i.e. 2 litre engine that I exchanged for the original carbed motor. Certainly the dipstick bracket I have stands no chance of fitting as it stands. I presume that dipstick mounting/positioning changed between the S2FL model and the later S3 injected models. Can anyone corroborate or deny this?

I can feel another 'parts wanted' ad coming on...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on June 16, 2021, 07:33:41 AM
Would a wrench and extension bar with crowfoot spanner fittings work on your manifold? It didn't on my exhaust downpipe TBH.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 16, 2021, 09:16:57 AM
Would a wrench and extension bar with crowfoot spanner fittings work on your manifold? It didn't on my exhaust downpipe TBH.
The kind of thing that plumbers use to fit taps in awkward locations you mean? That's certainly worth looking into. Thanks.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PM
Hi Graham

I used cap heads on the GC Manifold because you can get ball head allen keys beating the access challenge. I can remember bending the dip stick outer tube to get it past the manifold when using the GC twin 45 manifold. The Beta uses a rubber top hat seal that must be keep pressed into the block whilst the Monte uses an olive style locking collar.

Eric   


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 16, 2021, 06:53:44 PM
Hi Graham

I used cap heads on the GC Manifold because you can get ball head allen keys beating the access challenge. I can remember bending the dip stick outer tube to get it past the manifold when using the GC twin 45 manifold. The Beta uses a rubber top hat seal that must be keep pressed into the block whilst the Monte uses an olive style locking collar.

Eric   
Yes, I did consider using cap heads but (unwisely) thought that studs would be a better solution. I've Loctited the studs in, as well so I suspect I will ave to live with my decision. They are done up acceptably tight and I've used stainless Aerotight nuts and wave washers, so hopefully they should stay fastened. I may try a crowfoot socket to try and nip them up a tad further.

I'm not sure whether the dip stick outer tube I have is the correct one for a carbed model. It doesn't seem to fit whichever way I angle it.  Can you tell from the photo if I have the correct one? I suspect the one that would be a better fit is in France, attached to the i.e. block. I guess I need to unpack the Weber carb(s) and fit them to the manifold to see what actual leeway I have in positioning.



Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: Nigel on June 16, 2021, 07:47:06 PM
Graham,
My dipstick tube looks the same as yours but I have a spacer between the bracket and the bolt.
Spacer looks to be just over an inch long.

Nigel


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 16, 2021, 08:49:20 PM
Thanks Nigel,  I was wondering whether a spacer would need to be involved. I was also wondering whether the dipstick tube could be rerouted into the void in the manifold between cylinders 1 and 2 as that is effectively dead space.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 17, 2021, 11:56:53 AM
After some more fitting and removing parts, it has become apparent that:

1) The GC manifold will require further 'easing' at key points on the top of the carb flanges to allow my (Spanish made) Weber DCOE 45s to fit. The lowered middle section between chokes needs cutting back by 5-10mm each side. I'll be charitable and suggest that the manfold was designed around the Original Italian Webers...

2) Clearance on the Webers to fit bolts to attach the carb to the manifold is extremely limited - no more than 20mm. Given that both the Weber flange and manifold flange are around 11mm deep each, this could be problematic. I've ordered some low head cap screws in 20 and 25mm lengths (M8 x 1.25) and we will see what transpires. More 'fettling', I suspect.

3) Until I can get the above points resolved it's difficult to know what space I have to play with for the dipstick sleeve. I suspect it may come down to making a one-off in thin wall steel or aluminium tube. I hope the original can be persuaded to fit, but there has to be a Plan B.

4) Plan C would be to ditch the distributor altogether and free up valuable space in that area by following Gerard's example and going digital. I'll be investigating further in the next few days. <edit> I've just realised that the Aldon Amethyst still needs the distributor (with advance locked) as a trigger for the ignition unit, so does nothing for my space issues. Plan C has been discarded for the present...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on June 17, 2021, 12:16:13 PM
Hi Graham

The carbs go on stubs fitted to the manifolds with Thackery spring washers or rubber cup washer and vibration O ring plates between carbs and manifold. This assembly is to stop vibration turning the fuel in the float chambers to froth which is better in a Cappuccino than carbs.
I remember relieving the manifold for the balance link on the excellent Weber Throttle Linkage and for the distributor.

Look in GCs books carefully and you will see the anti vibration plates with bonded O rings.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 17, 2021, 04:08:38 PM
Thanks for that Eric. I do have the Misab flanges with bonded nitrile o-ring inserts, but I suspect the rest of the kit (studs, nyloc nuts, and rubber isolator washers) will be in the other carb box I didn't open. What sort of stand-off between manifold and carb body does this provide (if you can remember)? If I don't need to hack the manifold about I really would be happier not to. I suspect that even with the rubber stand-offs, some material will need to be removed. I've trawled through both of Guy's books, but all I can see are photos of the DCOE mounting kit.

The front cover of his first book has a pair of DCOEs fitted to one of his manifolds, but the extra offset provided by the Misab/rubber isolators only gives about 2-3mm overall.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 25, 2021, 06:47:42 PM
Had a chance to do some more trial fitment of the carbs onto the manifold today. First thing that was immediately apparent was that the supplied studs are imperial size - a mixture of coarse and fine threads on the same stud. GC's Beta manifold is resolutely metric - M8 x 1.25. So new studs will be required. I've emailed Anthony at Fast Road Cars (suppliers of my Webers) asking if I can swap the imperial studs for M8 ones, and also asking if he would swap the supplied 155 air corrector jets for 170s (GC's recommendation for an engine in my state of tune). All the other mounting parts (rubbers, cup washers, T-piece etc. ) are all present and correct.

I'm also pretty certain that my chosen method of resolving the dipstick tube clash with the manifold will be to fabricate a new one, angled such that it protrudes between the manifold inlet tracts of cylinders 1 and 2. It requires less of a bend than the OE one and frees up a tiny bit of space in the congested manifold/distributor area. All I have to do now is to acquire some tubing of the correct size(s) and an 8mm bending spring. And the correct size washer to act as a depth stop. And make up a mounting bracket. And get it all welded up. And then plated.

I'm opening a book on how long all this will take...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 26, 2021, 07:49:58 PM
Hi Graham

I remember relieving the manifold for the balance link on the excellent Weber Throttle Linkage and for the distributor.

Calling on your expertise and experience again, Eric. I've looked on both Fast Road Cars and Eurocarb web sites and they list a bewildering range of linkages for DCOE Webers. I know I want a top-mounting kit, but which one? What are the pros and cons of the various options? Do I go for single or double cable (my preference would be for single, if only for simplicity's sake)? I could ask the web site owners, but would prefer an unbiased and 'been there and done it' point of view...

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on June 27, 2021, 10:10:53 AM
Hi Graham

The best I have used is the Weber made linkage complete with the balance link arms that are essential. NEVER mix levers from another kit if you want smooth precise control. A single cable is fine. If you buy the dual cable linkage you get a spare.
You will need to adapt the top of the throttle pedal to take the cable pull and secure block. In an ideal world this would pivot like the original but actually securing it with the block and grub screw works because it bends in a small arc in use.

Eric

Never fit a linkage to or springs to the extreme ends of the carb spindles. The twist caused will be enough to ruin your chances of balancing the carbs.
If you want more springs add the them to the pedal.
Make sure you get full throttle and have a pedal stop at the right height to not strain and break the cable.   


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on June 27, 2021, 12:44:54 PM
Hi Eric,

Many thanks for that, much appreciated. There are no less than 3 genuine top-mounted Weber linkages, one with a single cable, two with twin cables; LP1000, LP2000 and LP2500 respectively. As far as I can make out the LP1000 and LP2000 cables enter from the LH side of the car when viewed from the front, and the LP2500 cables enter from the RH side of the car (which may be better suited to a LHD car). Having said that, the quality of the castings and machining on the LP2500 linkage is superb. Here are equivalent photos for the LP1000, LP2000 and LP2500. Which one did you use, Eric? (Assuming it was actually one of these).

Graham



Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on July 02, 2021, 05:06:16 PM
More small steps today. I hunted down some manifold studs of the required size from WDS Components (https://www.wdscomponents.com/en-gb/metric-steel-studs-wds-405/c-424/p-394/v-4754 (https://www.wdscomponents.com/en-gb/metric-steel-studs-wds-405/c-424/p-394/v-4754), in M8 x 1.25 and an overall length of 50mm. I fitted these earlier and effectively made them a permanent fixture with green (strong) Loctite. Prior to that I'd established that there was sufficient clearance when the carbs were mounted using the Misab plates between the end of the stud and the carb body. There was - about 2 mm. It was a real juggling act in terms of getting the studs long enough to allow fitment of the two cup washers, rubber sleeve and nyloc nut and not so long that the end of the stud fouled the carb body.

Prior to that I'd done the final fit of the GC manifold to the head using wave washers and Aerotight nuts, and tightening the nuts up as much and as evenly as I could manage. Final tightening will be at the next visit, as I need to dig out my stubby ring/OE spanners and also grind a sacrificial ring spanner sufficiently to allow me to get the spanner head over the nut (clearance to manifold is VERY tight). My collection of 'special tools' is expanding...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on July 02, 2021, 05:37:26 PM
Hi Graham

The second one with one cable, but I should have used the first one with an adapted cable.

Eric 


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on July 02, 2021, 08:21:18 PM
Thanks Eric, I'd pretty much decided on the first one. Two operating cables is just another opportunity for something to go out of balance. The only way I've seen it used successfully is on many bike throttle cables where there is a 'push me pull you' opening and closing cable.

Thanks for the confirmation.


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on July 13, 2021, 09:26:33 PM
The LP1000 linkage has been purchased and delivered, but is still currently sitting in its box. My focus has currently turned to the dipstick tube, as that is in the area I'm working on, and needs resolution before I go much further. I was hopeful that the OE dipstick tube could be made to fit between the inlet manifold ports for cylinders 1 and 2, but after removing the locating bracket it appears that it still doesn't, and a new dipstick tube will need to be fabricated. Bugger.

So some 10mm mild steel tube has been ordered and my Rothenberger tube bending tool has been retrieved from the depths of my plumbing tool kit. This is all going to be a case of bend the tube - trial fit - bend the tube some more - trial fit - get it something like - fabricate a bracket - trial fit - attach bracket to tube temporarily - trial fit etc. etc


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on September 02, 2021, 09:29:17 PM
It's taken me this long to get the replacement dipstick tube bent to shape (several iterations were required before I was happy), fabricated the top section where the rubber part  of the dipstick sits, got all the bits welded up and got the part electroless nickel plated. It just squeezes into the tube in the block as it passes inside the inlet manifold, and the top section is only a fraction of a millimetre away from the manifold. I'll probably wrap that section in rubber or foam, Ithink. But it fits and it moves the dipstick holder away from the no-mans-land near the distributor and frees up a tiny bit of space in front of the dizzy. I've yet to figure out how to clamp it in place, but I'm working on ideas.

Here are the obligatory pictures. First is a comparison between new and old dipstick holders. The OE part has had its mounting bracket removed. Then there is a front on view of the part in place, then views from three-quarter and looking straight down.



Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on September 10, 2021, 03:55:44 PM
At last, some more major progress to report. The 'enabler' has been the creation of a Mk 2 engine dolly that has allowed me to fit the flywheel (the Mk 1 didn't) and subsequently the clutch. It also provides full access to the oil filter housing so I can fit the Torques oil cooler take-off. Lastly, it will allow the gearbox to be fitted , once I've made up the necessary supports on the extended deck. I'll need to measure up carefully to get heights and dimensions right, but it should aid fitment and will also give support to the gearbox once fitted.

So the flywheel has been fitted as per GC's instructions (and TDC 1 & 4 green pen mark) and torqued up to 100 lb/ft. It's certainly proper tight... Then I was able to use the clutch centring tool I had made up, which made centring the drive plate a breeze. Next the outer housing was fitted. I'm glad I don't have to fit a new clutch lying on the floor, as locating the dowels in the housing has to be absolutely precise. Get all three dowels 'just' located in their respective holes, then fit the six M8 bolts finger tight, slowly and gradually tightening them up in sequence. Prior to that I'd cleaned all the clutch and flywheel surfaces with brake cleaner - lots of it. The green pen that Guy used to marke TDC on the flywheel was completely untouched by all the cleaning, I noticed. The flywheel is a VX unit, lightened, balanced and skimmed by GC and the clutch is a 16v Thema Turbo unit.

So the next step will be to drag the gearbox out of its storage place, fit the clutch release bearing, operating arms and top hat collar and work out how best to mate it with the engine.

But that will have to wait for a while - I'm off to France on Monday to visit the moneypit (and Spider) and hope that nothing untoward has happened to either in the intervening 12 months. Fingers crossed.

Pictures of the engine on its new stand follow...


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: peteracs on September 10, 2021, 04:02:22 PM
Hi Graham

And very nice looking too.

Keep on chipping away, you will get to the end of the road.

Hope your trip to France is a success, we are off in a weeks time and see the testing requirements ha e been eased somewhat which is a welcome move.

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: WestonE on September 10, 2021, 04:13:30 PM
Hi Graham

Nice work and suitably shinny. I still love your engine dolly idea. As you know I copied it to be able to move my engine closer to the engine bay. I never considered fitting the gearbox with it in the Dolly and might play with some empty casings I use for mock ups.

Eric
PS I prefer stronger Cap head bolts with Snor serrated washers for securing the clutch. But I am giving the whole assembly a lot of load so no need to switch over. I also use the Helix VX Steel flywheel simply because it is stronger.     


Title: Re: Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb
Post by: mangocrazy on September 10, 2021, 04:47:16 PM
Thanks chaps...

Peter,

Yes, I'm a bit apprehensive about it all, but it's either now or wait until next year. I'v downloaded the necessary self-certification doc and got my fully vaccinated ststus confirmed by an NHS doc, so I've done as much as I can.

And yes, keep chipping away and one day it will be done...

Eric,

The bolts you see there will not be the ones used- they were just used to pull the housing up to the FW. They're only nipped up. I'll be doing as you've done, using 10.9 cap head bolts and snorr washers. It's not coming off without my say-so...
That dolly was definitely one of my better ideas, if I say so myself. The Mk 2 has 6 castors, each with a load capacity of 150 kg, so it's suitably over-engineered.