Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Engine => Topic started by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 07:30:20 PM



Title: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 07:30:20 PM
Hi there and welcome to the fun that is my car.  ::)

The car in question is a 1980 Lancia Beta 1300 with 36,000 miles on the clock and was left standing for some years before.

I have just replaced the ignition coil, engine oil and filters and everything was going silky smooth I gave the car a drive till it was warm when I got home I left it until cold now when I tried starting it, it is VERY rough, not firing on all cylinders, and quite hard to start also sounds like there is sucking sound and then as soon as you let go of the accelerator it sputters and quits out, I tried it once more; same problem. Then out of intrigue I checked the oil which was abnormally warm and very thin I then smelt it and quite a smell of fuel. The smell of fuel in oil could be that unburnt fuel from the cylinder that wasn't firing going down into the sump. Not sure, my head isn't in gear.  :-\

How come in the space of hours there is a sucking sound (crack in vacuum pipes?) and the car is not firing on all cylinders as it sounds like a Canal boat then the fresh oil smelling like petrol. It's all making my head hurt!  :(

Need to change that oil and filter again  :(


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: gillybeta on June 14, 2011, 08:10:46 PM
hi there
you could have a hole in the choke diaphragm of the carb - that can allow fuel down to the sump.

jon


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 08:27:29 PM
hi there
you could have a hole in the choke diaphragm of the carb - that can allow fuel down to the sump.

jon
That's a good possibility so just take the Thermostat housing off and am I looking for a hole in the diaphragm that goes onto that rod I can't remember the name of? And would that solve one problem or all the problems? :-\


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 09:37:16 PM
Ok I removed the Thermostat to remove the Choke Diaphragm and it looks perfect no holes or tares still stuck :/

Here is a photo of the choke Diaphragm:
 (http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-14210530.jpg)


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on June 14, 2011, 09:51:14 PM
Definately sounds like a carburration problem. My bet is that a load of crap had settled at the bottom of the float chamber and was then dragged into your jets when stirred up after years of inactivity. You could try firing some carb cleaner and/or Redex through the carb with the engine running. If that doesn't work you may need to partially strip and clean the carb. The choke diaphragm looks ok in your picture.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 10:03:53 PM
Definately sounds like a carburration problem. My bet is that a load of crap had settled at the bottom of the float chamber and was then dragged into your jets when stirred up after years of inactivity. You could try firing some carb cleaner and/or Redex through the carb with the engine running. If that doesn't work you may need to partially strip and clean the carb. The choke diaphragm looks ok in your picture.
Hmm yeah got some carb spray somewhere!


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: thecolonel on June 14, 2011, 11:14:16 PM
DO NOT run the engine until you have found the reason for the fuel leaking in to the sump,
fuel in the oil can ruin the big ends and cause other damage.
The leak is probably the accelerator pump diaphram, looking at it will not reveal perforations.
you can get new ones from Eurocarb about 15.00 if that is the problem,
it could also be the float not closing the needle valve fully.

I had similar problem and I ended up changing the oil & filter twice before I found the fault.




Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 11:36:32 PM
DO NOT run the engine until you have found the reason for the fuel leaking in to the sump,
fuel in the oil can ruin the big ends and cause other damage.
The leak is probably the accelerator pump diaphram, looking at it will not reveal perforations.
you can get new ones from Eurocarb about 15.00 if that is the problem,
it could also be the float not closing the needle valve fully.

I had similar problem and I ended up changing the oil & filter twice before I found the fault.



Yup fuel will ruin the oils lubrication and wear components at the speed of Knots. Thankfully I noticed this sooner than later. Right well if its 15.00 may as well replace that then, is it a hard job to do? in the case of the float not closing the needle valve shall I just replace the needle or could it just be some dirt clogging it?   


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on June 15, 2011, 07:26:34 AM
The pump is on the back of the carb held in place by 4 brass screws. 2 minute job.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: rachaeljf on June 15, 2011, 11:38:09 AM
Check your fuel pump too. The diaphragm can fail, which allows fuel to pour into the sump via the opening for the pump lever.

Cheers R


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: thecolonel on June 15, 2011, 11:38:57 AM
Good point, I always forget the mechanical pump.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 15, 2011, 02:20:41 PM
The pump is on the back of the carb held in place by 4 brass screws. 2 minute job.
Ah that's good news  :) Ok so i'll get that sorted  ;D Thanks!


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 15, 2011, 02:28:24 PM
Check your fuel pump too. The diaphragm can fail, which allows fuel to pour into the sump via the opening for the pump lever.

Cheers R
Ok i'll give that a good look over but what am I exactly looking for in the diaphragm just holes and tares creating the lack of pressure? Thanks  :)


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: rachaeljf on June 15, 2011, 05:06:32 PM
The fuel pump is a sealed unit I believe. You can test it by operating it by hand, and blowing into the inlet (top) pipe while holding your finger over the outlet to see if it leaks air. If it is faulty/leaking then you may be better off fitting an electric pump as a mechanical replacement might be difficult to come by.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 15, 2011, 05:32:36 PM
The fuel pump is a sealed unit I believe. You can test it by operating it by hand, and blowing into the inlet (top) pipe while holding your finger over the outlet to see if it leaks air. If it is faulty/leaking then you may be better off fitting an electric pump as a mechanical replacement might be difficult to come by.
Ah right ok, i'll do that. http://betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=272 (http://betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=272) <- Is that not the part  :P

Edit: Oh its out of stock :/


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 15, 2011, 05:49:16 PM
Ok in wanting to keep my Beta in original condition I can only find a mechanical fuel pump for a 1.6 not a 1.3 do you think that will work for a 1.3?  :-\

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mechanical-Fuel-Pump-Lancia-Beta-1-6-03-76-10-84-/220511738530?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3357861aa2 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mechanical-Fuel-Pump-Lancia-Beta-1-6-03-76-10-84-/220511738530?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3357861aa2)


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: rachaeljf on June 15, 2011, 07:58:43 PM
I'm almost certain they will be all the same.

I have one on my 1.6 engine. I can measure it up if you like.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 15, 2011, 08:03:17 PM
I'm almost certain they will be all the same.

I have one on my 1.6 engine. I can measure it up if you like.
That would be perfect, it'll help out a lot! Thank you  ;D


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: rachaeljf on June 15, 2011, 09:00:39 PM
Well, remarkably enough mine is a rebuildable type and looks pretty new. The actuating lever measures 59 mm long from the gasket face to toe end. Its "heel" is 41 mm, and toe end is about 34 mm below the fixing hole centreline. The pump body is about 60 mm high from the fixing hole centreline.

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/rachaeljf/Lancia/DSC05121.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/rachaeljf/Lancia/DSC05122.jpg)

Yes that is how the gasket was fitted. It must have leaked a bit! I know it works fine as I drove the car home from Scotland when I bought it, and it was removed and shelved as soon as I got the car into the garage.

If you want to buy it, it'll be 15 including p&p!

Cheers R


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 15, 2011, 09:20:45 PM
Well, remarkably enough mine is a rebuildable type and looks pretty new. The actuating lever measures 59 mm long from the gasket face to toe end. Its "heel" is 41 mm, and toe end is about 34 mm below the fixing hole centreline. The pump body is about 60 mm high from the fixing hole centreline.


Yes that is how the gasket was fitted. It must have leaked a bit! I know it works fine as I drove the car home from Scotland when I bought it, and it was removed and shelved as soon as I got the car into the garage.

If you want to buy it, it'll be 15 including p&p!

Cheers R

Thanks for those measurements! It's getting a bit dark now to take the pump off to measure mine but tomorrow morning I will take it off (looks simple to take off just a bit out of sight under the intake manifold) then get some measurements down and if your selling it at 15 that would be very kind! Thanks!


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 16, 2011, 02:44:19 PM
Right the pump is off and the lever is covered in fuel and with the remaining fuel isn't a strong push out.

The measurements on the arm are exactly the same to yours Rachaelljf but yours seems to be just a thin piece for the arm and mine has a slot in the middle whether that is of any importance and the design of the body looks very similar and with a small tolerance it is the same design.

Here are the photos of mine I took in the kitchen to the annoyance of my parents :P, do you think the 1600 fuel pump will be fully operational with its differences?

(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-16135617.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-16135700.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-16135801.jpg)


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 16, 2011, 03:26:22 PM
Ok the mystery of the fuel pump deepens because I looked in the boot and found a Mechanical fuel pump box and when I opened it there was a fuel pump which looks to be used and very different from mine also this one seems to be made my Fispa, while the box says Moprod. So I think this has been a problem for a while. I don't know whether the Fispa pump works but the arm is the same mesurments to the one what was on the car although the 'kick' on the Fispa pump is only a fraction to the other one.

Well here is some photos:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-16150849.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-16150917.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-16151014.jpg)


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: rachaeljf on June 16, 2011, 06:59:40 PM
Interesting. The second pump is the sealed type mentioned in the Haynes Book of Lies. It looks like your current pump is a replacement for that sealed type. You say there is petrol on the lever of your fitted pump - there's your problem then. You may as well take the pump apart and see if you can get a replacement diaphragm. These pumps are all very similar across many makes of car and you might get lucky browsing at a motor factor.

You can test the mystery pump by connecting it up and working it by hand. Even if the diaphragm is not split, it may still be no good if one of its check valves has failed.

And you're welcome to buy mine of course. PM replied to.

Cheers R


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 16, 2011, 09:22:36 PM
Interesting. The second pump is the sealed type mentioned in the Haynes Book of Lies. It looks like your current pump is a replacement for that sealed type. You say there is petrol on the lever of your fitted pump - there's your problem then. You may as well take the pump apart and see if you can get a replacement diaphragm. These pumps are all very similar across many makes of car and you might get lucky browsing at a motor factor.

You can test the mystery pump by connecting it up and working it by hand. Even if the diaphragm is not split, it may still be no good if one of its check valves has failed.

And you're welcome to buy mine of course. PM replied to.

Cheers R
I've never trusted Haynes, never will! I will use the one out of my car as a spare but replace the diaphragm, thanks.
What would I do just crank the engine by hand? 


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: rachaeljf on June 16, 2011, 09:43:10 PM
Just connect the fuel pipes up and work the pump by hand. No point fitting it to the engine if it's a dud!


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: cheeky monkey on June 17, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
Hi

i recognize the fispa pump with the curved pipe as the same one on my 1300.   I think ive got a spare pump of a different make in the garage ... when i get home i'll check what make it is in case you need another option.  i remember this spare one fitting as i was diagnosing some fuel supply problems ages ago and swapped them over easily. 
G


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 17, 2011, 09:15:46 PM
Hi

i recognize the fispa pump with the curved pipe as the same one on my 1300.   I think ive got a spare pump of a different make in the garage ... when i get home i'll check what make it is in case you need another option.  i remember this spare one fitting as i was diagnosing some fuel supply problems ages ago and swapped them over easily. 
G
Ok that would be perfect, did the spare one actually work? If by some devilish chance this pump I bought does not work that'll help out loads! Thankyou!


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: cheeky monkey on June 18, 2011, 06:29:51 PM
The one i was thinking of is actually fitted! but i found a different one in the garage which looks like rachaeljf's with the same measurements. its missing the 'made in italy' stamp but looks the same. 
So one fitted has the circular gasket plate (which i think you can just see from the pic) so is more like the one you have had to remove..  Did you test the old Fispa one to see if it is okay.?

regards
G



Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 19, 2011, 03:03:44 AM
The one i was thinking of is actually fitted! but i found a different one in the garage which looks like rachaeljf's with the same measurements. its missing the 'made in italy' stamp but looks the same.  
So one fitted has the circular gasket plate (which i think you can just see from the pic) so is more like the one you have had to remove..  Did you test the old Fispa one to see if it is okay.?

regards
G


Ah, I think if it doesn't have the 'Made in Italy' stamp it might be aftermarket; but don't quote me on it. Yeah on opening you have the diaphragm which on mine, looks OK but has a fail in it somewhere so if I can work out how to take the nut holding it on without twisting the spring I'll go to the local auto-parts store and see if I can get a replacement and keep it for a spare! (Always good to have spare of things). So is the Fispa pump the standard pump for the 1300 and the one that me and you have are aftermarket? This is all getting a tad confusing  :P Yeah I tested it and it doesn't appear to work as the lift arm doesn't seem to lift very high to create the vacuum so it could be seized.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: cheeky monkey on June 19, 2011, 11:00:17 AM
Yeah, i'm sure the Fispa would of been the standard one for 1300.
hope you get on okay with getting a replacement.
not sure if the solid or slotted arm is of significance btw.  :-\ it is a bit confusing
 


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 19, 2011, 03:43:48 PM
Yeah, i'm sure the Fispa would of been the standard one for 1300.
hope you get on okay with getting a replacement.
not sure if the solid or slotted arm is of significance btw.  :-\ it is a bit confusing
 
Well the photo for it is in the manual as Rachael said so it must of been the factory part. Well Rachael has sent me one so hopefully this will solve my woes and worry's then.  :)


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on July 02, 2011, 07:15:26 PM
Ok guys, replaced fuel pump, oil filter and oil.

Got in turned the key and she took quite a lot of starting to pull fuel through but once she did it fired up perfectly, I left it for about 2 minutes to idle then when taking it round the block she seemed fine revving up to speed, driving fine but as soon as I took my foot off the accelerator and slowed down she died instantly.

I started her again from semi-warm and she idled beautifully even when warm but again took her out for a little while to check if it wanted to die and, you guessed it died without idling.

What could this be?

Also sometimes when starting it feels like I am pulling a brick through the fuel lines so could it be clogged with crap somewhere?

Thankyou!


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on July 03, 2011, 02:54:10 PM
Ok, Now the smell of fuel is back in the oil. I give up, I don't know. Could it be too rich of fuel or maybe the float is stuck open?

Edit: Ok its not as strong and the oil level hasn't risen so it could be the piston blow-by has just made the oil smell a bit like fuel because I haven't had it for a long trip also the oil level hasn't risen.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: rachaeljf on July 03, 2011, 07:08:57 PM
I think the fuel pump I sent you should be ok, I took it apart and it was clean as a whistle.

Carburetted Fiat/Lancias are plagued with blocked jets, usually the idle jets. Depending on which jet is blocked, either it won't idle or it has a huge flat spot around mid throttle. If you haven't done so already you need to change the fuel lines as they may look ok externally but they crumble internally. Fit a see-through filter before the pump. Then you will see if you are drawing rust/crud from the tank.

You may need to strip the carb and give it a thorough clean.

Don't feel unlucky, there are heaps of threads like yours on the X1/9 forums.


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: thecolonel on July 03, 2011, 07:10:20 PM
Have you changed the accelerator pump diaphram in the carb yet ?


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on July 04, 2011, 01:07:26 AM
I think the fuel pump I sent you should be ok, I took it apart and it was clean as a whistle.

Carburetted Fiat/Lancias are plagued with blocked jets, usually the idle jets. Depending on which jet is blocked, either it won't idle or it has a huge flat spot around mid throttle. If you haven't done so already you need to change the fuel lines as they may look ok externally but they crumble internally. Fit a see-through filter before the pump. Then you will see if you are drawing rust/crud from the tank.

You may need to strip the carb and give it a thorough clean.

Don't feel unlucky, there are heaps of threads like yours on the X1/9 forums.
It definitely feels much better with the response to acceleration. I was thinking of sending the carburettor away to the UK to get refurbished because I am as useless as they come with carbs. I replaced the pipes with thick rubber type of the same diameter measured with a vernier gauge beyond the fuel pump but I haven't replaced the furry ones.

Argh at the moment I just want to see her go like she should I was ready to headbutt a wall when it died on me.  :-\


Title: Re: Smell of fuel in oil and engine cut out
Post by: piacevole1300 on July 04, 2011, 01:09:18 AM
Have you changed the accelerator pump diaphram in the carb yet ?
Dammit forgot about that, tommorow morning thats getting replaced! Thanks for the reminder, i'll see what that does.

Thanks!