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Author Topic: Beta Spider 2 litre top-end noise (probably valve-related?)  (Read 3869 times)
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mangocrazy
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« on: December 30, 2010, 05:56:22 PM »

Hi,

I've observed a slightly worrying top-end engine noise on my 2 litre Beta. It only seems to occur (or I only notice it) at idle and seems to go away with revs. The car is garaged in France and I took it into the local garagiste for a cam belt change, and he commented that it sounded like a failing hydraulic tappet. Which is a bit worrying, as these motors don't have them...

It's a metallic 'dinking' noise, not overly loud, but clearly audible over the engine noise at tickover. It appears to be coming from a single source, and I was wondering if it could be a broken valve spring or somesuch?

When I next visit the car in April/May I'm planning to drop it into the aforementioned chap and let him fix it (and probably also do the valve clearances). But the thought occurred that it might be a good idea to buy up a few possible spares in advance. I was thinking of buying an inlet and exhaust valve and valve springs. Are these readily available from Fiat, and are they common with other models in the Fiat range? Motor is entirely standard, by the way.

Also, are shims still readily available for doing the valve clearances?

<edit> Checked further and found shims being sold on eBay, so that's one thing solved. But then another thought occurred - I'm probably going to need a head gasket set as well. Will an Argenta/105TC set fit the 2 litre beta?

Any advice/suggestions welcome...

Cheers,

Graham
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 06:24:15 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
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MattNoVAT
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 11:56:34 AM »

Graham,

Your doing the right thing by having the valve clearances checked, it could be any number of things but i don't think its going to be a broken spring, more than likely it'll be the shim, maybe some matter has got underneath it in the bucket or maybe its just worn and has now got a bit rattly on tick over, it goes away under load because any "slack" is being taken up as the power comes on.

Lancia did a special tool for replacing the shims with everything in situ. Will have a hunt around for its number.

As for head gasket, I have a a number of these, as well as the other gaskets you may need, inlet/exhaust manifold - If you want I can sort out a headset. BTW - Was it you that was after the top water rail pipe as I have a spare one of those too.  
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 04:03:40 PM by MattNoVAT » Logged

1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
mangocrazy
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 12:07:02 PM »

Thanks Matt, the shim sounds a more sensible reason on thinking about it. I'm a bit perplexed as it doesn't seem to be affecting the way the engine runs, just the annoying/worrying noise at idle.

I'll definitely take a head set if you can make one up (see other post in the Wanted section) and I'll bite your hand off for the top water rail. PM or email me your details and the costs and I'll get payment sorted out pronto. Email is grahamstewart888 at yahoo dot co dot uk. I notice Guy Croft does the shim tool at about 30. Is this par for the course or on the pricey side?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
MattNoVAT
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2010, 01:27:13 PM »

As its not affecting performance or running of the engine I think its the clearance between the valve lobe and the shim thats the problem, either wear or shim not cleanly seated but as it disappears under load I think its most likely wear to the shim, as revs increase oil delivery to the cams would increase and soften the noise.  If it was the valve itself or the valve spring then performance would be affected.

My car was once very "tappety" until I shimmed it up properly, now its much quieter :-)

Not sure on the GC price for the special shim tool, people always say GC is expensive but whats it worth not to have to dismantle the head or worse pay for a garage to dismantle it and rebuild it?  30 could be a sound investment.

I'll get in the garage and sort out some bits for you, will PM you shortly. I used to have one of those tools but I leant it to someone and never saw it or them again....d'oh!
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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
mangocrazy
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2010, 02:16:35 PM »

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that getting the clearances checked/adjusted is the way forward. And 30 for the proper tool doesn't seem excessive to me. At least with bits from GC you know that they will be fit for purpose. It will probably save me that much in time and frustration if I do it myself, and in the garagiste's time if he does it. There's no substitute for the proper tool...

And as the shims are used on a huge number of Fiat motors, getting hold of them shouldn't be a problem either (plus Lancia are still active in France).

Thanks again. Look forward to hearing from you.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
rossocorsa
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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2010, 04:30:41 PM »

the shims fit certain other makes as well, Volvo sticks in my mind, 30 is probably about right for the tappet tool it does seem pricey for nothing much more than a bent piece of mild steel but they aren't easy to come by these days they are nla from Fiat tried to order one few years ago and it never arrived price then was around 20 not particularly cheap if they are never in stock!!
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f27vx
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 04:55:08 PM »

Hi, have you/ your mechanic checked to make sure the exhaust manifold gasket's not blowing?
If it's only in one place that can give a ticking noise which disappears as the revs/noise level from the rest of the engine increase - ask me how I know!
Regarding the 33mm diam shims they are indeed still used on a number of current Fiat models. However due to their slavish use of computer parts lists my experince with Main Dealers is that they are unable to supply without a specific model and year.
Somewhere on here there's a link to those current models but don't expect miracles.
 Your best bet for one or two is to speak to Guy or Eddie at AE car.
BOL and if you're DIYing I'll be happy to discuss technique and/or alternative tools for shim replacement if you drop me a PM.
Cheers, Pewe.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2011, 10:31:05 PM »

Hi Pewe,

Thanks for the thoughts. I've had my fair share of exhaust manifold woes in the past, which seems (touch wood) to have been fixed by fitting a 4-2-1 manifold/header many years ago. The noise is definitely a metallic ticking/clicking, but I will definitely check out the possibility of exhaust gasket failure. I'm tending towards letting the local garagiste in France do the valve clearances, but if I decide otherwise, I'll PM you.

The engine is scheduled to be removed from the car and brought back to the UK for complete refurbishment in Autumn 2011, so I'm just interested in keeping the old girl running without any mechanical disasters.

Thanks again.

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
markwast
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 11:02:47 PM »

would suggest getting engine compression tested just in case bent or burnt out valve.
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Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 06:06:04 PM »

Don't want to alarm you but I once put on a cambelt one or two teeth out of kilter. The engine ran ok but with a metallic ping from the top end. It was a valve pinging the top of a piston! Amazingly no damage was done but I only ran the engine for five minutes.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 11:36:41 AM »

Eeek... Don't think it's that, as the engine was making that noise before it went in for a cam-belt change last summer, and the garagiste picked up on it. It was still doing it afterwards, as well...

It's definitely going in to the garagiste again when we go over in April/May, and he can check out the source of the noise while doing the valve clearances. I'll be taking a top-end gasket set with me...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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