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Author Topic: Planning more power  (Read 5134 times)
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droptop
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« on: July 02, 2010, 09:27:33 AM »

I have been watching the debate about which carbs to use for increased power. Now I know very little about multiple carb setups, but has anyone tried a throttle body and ignition management setup such as Jenvey or AlphaWeber? A friend of mine is running this setup on an '88 rally sprint nova with a 2l red top and finds it so accurate to set and tune that he will never go back to carbs.
Like I said, I know very little about fuelling apart from basic checks to ensure there is fuel being delivered, so if I am talking s... please excuse me. I just think back to my first car which was a mini running twin SU carbs and the hassle of trying to keep them in tune.
As much as I like working on my cars, I like to try to only have to do something once and have it right, so that's where I am coming from.
Any thoughts?
Oh yeah, don't throttle bodies sound awsome?
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WestonE
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2010, 03:00:36 PM »

I run Jenvey bodies and an Emerald K3 Ecu on my Montecarlo. The installation is not really for beginners and you will be spending 1800 or more doing this. On its own with a tired engine you might only get 140BHP. However they stay in tune, the fuel economy is amazing and the sound is fantastic. My heavily modified engine produces 200BHP and revs to 8500 rpm. Much beyond 7200 on a normal engine and you have no engine.

Food for thought.

Eric
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Dexter
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 11:04:11 PM »

Here's just a few ideas to get you away. Power is handy but a good old fat spread of torque will leave most high pitched screamers in your mirrors on normal roads. Assuming your engine is fit and compression is excellent etc etc try a single 40 (readily available), 42 (seen on a few morgans and a hot 131) or 45 (again readily available) side or down draught carb and with a head with 42.4mm inlet valves (124 131 heads) or 43.5mm (strada tc) a 9.6 or 9.9mm lift and correct duration and overlap and you'll be away. Port match your inlet manifold to your head (use gasket as a guide), add a high quality exhaust system 4 into 1 or 4 into 2 into 1. In gear acceleration will be excellent, in fact tremendous if you get it right. You could also jet a Gamma downdraught (38 I think) and this will give you noticeable improvements. Buy guy crofts manual. Pricey but you'll love it....... Let me know how you get on.
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droptop
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 09:50:12 AM »

Am planning a lot of work over the winter months so I will start with the Guy Croft manual for the tuning side. I recently found an item on Google called "Modifying a Lancia Beta Spider" and it gives a lot of info re. suspension, gearing and the like. Anyone tried any of these mods? My car sits what I consider "high" in the front like an old Capri with sagging rear leaf springs and looks off balance. Now I know this thread is about carbs, but since both replies I got so far are from modified car owners, I figured I'd ask.
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Dexter
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2010, 10:01:11 PM »

I think the guy who wrote the article you mention is the same guy who was first to post a reply to you: Eric Weston, good stuff, although I found the price of throttle bodies way way too expensive for my budget, great mod if you can afford it. If you study guy crofts book it will unlock lots of potential. With regards the suspension it depends how much you want to spend. You can get new springs/polybushes from the betaboyz parts catalogue or you can spec coilovers from Leda at around 250 a corner. again depends on your budget. Even a ropey old beaten up Beta goes like stink around corners. Just remember to baffle you sump......
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WestonE
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 12:35:57 PM »

Droptop

Yes I did write "Modifying a Beta Spyder" but it is a bit old now and not up to the standard of the VX fuel injected Beta Spider I am now building.

You can get a lot of power out of twin 45 side draft carbs and fantastic throttle response on standard cams especially if you lighten the flywheel.

These days the smart people fit bike carbs with mapped ignition and a coil pack from a zetec ford. Triggerwheels.com and bogg brothers supply a lot of useful bits for doing this. My last old car in de-tuned form (still beyond original) is owned by Terry Wood now. Bolt on carbs and bolt on 4 into 2 into 1 exhaust should see 145bhp on a sound engine. With head work and higher compression pistons this can become 165BHP. But you must sort out the dreadful sump if it is going to last.

Eric     
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thecolonel
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 01:15:04 PM »

I like these.........

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Yamaha-FZR-1000-Genesis-89-Mikuni-Carburettor-38mm_W0QQitemZ280527369714QQcategoryZ10490QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3907.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BIEW%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D20%26pmod%3D380243906452%26po%3DLWI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7338494686692197641

Geoff
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andybeta
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 03:33:49 PM »

Guy Croft's book is pretty much aimed at carb set ups. Whilst much of what he recommends in terns of engine building is transferrrable to an FI installation there is a whole lot more he doesn't cover which to be fair has been discovered since and is now common place.
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andybeta
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 03:36:59 PM »

Droptop

Yes I did write "Modifying a Beta Spyder" but it is a bit old now and not up to the standard of the VX fuel injected Beta Spider I am now building.

You can get a lot of power out of twin 45 side draft carbs and fantastic throttle response on standard cams especially if you lighten the flywheel.

These days the smart people fit bike carbs with mapped ignition and a coil pack from a zetec ford. Triggerwheels.com and bogg brothers supply a lot of useful bits for doing this. My last old car in de-tuned form (still beyond original) is owned by Terry Wood now. Bolt on carbs and bolt on 4 into 2 into 1 exhaust should see 145bhp on a sound engine. With head work and higher compression pistons this can become 165BHP. But you must sort out the dreadful sump if it is going to last.

Eric     

Eric,

How's your FI Beta Spider VX coming along? Are you using an Emereald ECU and Jenvy TB for this as you did your Monte?

Regards,

Andrew
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WestonE
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 08:10:12 AM »

Andrew

I could just say slowly. However I am dry building the engine with a Guy Croft 3A inlet cam and Wossner forged pistons to check I have the right clearance gaps. Also I need to mark up the billet fuel rail so it can be machined along with the inlet manifold to take the Pico 330cc injectors. I have 2 fully re-built superchargers one with a DCOE manifold on the front and a Jenvey 45 throttle body. The TB has the injector ports plugged, but allows me to easily mount the linkage and Throttle position sensor. 

I allmost have all the parts to put the struts together i.e. Spax inserts, BB lowering springs, Sping cushions. 

If you imagine a mountain of parts sandblasting in a production line that is what I have underway. The shell still needs the PS firewall installed and the VX specific brackets before it can go to SPL for stripping and treating. It has already had sills off end to end strutural new metal welded in to a very high standard.

My very tidy VX coupe interior is carefully stored.

I am building to 250 maybe 260Bhp so the LSD is waiting to go in the VX gearbox.

This is an epic project   

Eric
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andybeta
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 12:20:52 AM »

Eric,
Indeed an epic project. Sounds awesome. How will the Spyder handle the power do you think? It is the front engined Beta Spyder shell you are using and not the Montecarlo Spyder? For the level of power you are hoping for I would have thought the latter would be a better option?

You mention you have 2 rebuilt superchargers - VX Rootes ones? Are you planning to run two or 'am I being a bit dense?

I take it you are building the engine yourself and using the GC 3A inlet cam rather than having GC build the whole engine?

FI is something I have wanted to do with mine as although carbs are good to a point FI is so much more manageable and consistent over the whole rev range which you know. I was thinking of trying to use a Rotrex supercharger feeding a bespoke inlet manifold with 4 injectors and Emerald mapping. But alas the cost of the Rotrex charger alone is astronomical. So will keenly be watching your project. I have seen your Monte and it is impressive. I think it was at the Gaydon AutoItalia Autumn meet 2 years ago or maybe last year IIRC.

Anyway best of luck with this project. If anyone can carry it off you can ;@) Do you have a rough completion date in mind?

Btw are you going to the Lancia AGM 18th July? It's in your area if I remember.

Regards,

Andrew
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 12:34:34 AM by andybeta » Logged
lanciamad
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Marcus Robinson


« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 08:28:16 PM »

Andrew

I could just say slowly. However I am dry building the engine with a Guy Croft 3A inlet cam and Wossner forged pistons to check I have the right clearance gaps. Also I need to mark up the billet fuel rail so it can be machined along with the inlet manifold to take the Pico 330cc injectors. I have 2 fully re-built superchargers one with a DCOE manifold on the front and a Jenvey 45 throttle body. The TB has the injector ports plugged, but allows me to easily mount the linkage and Throttle position sensor.  

I allmost have all the parts to put the struts together i.e. Spax inserts, BB lowering springs, Sping cushions.  

If you imagine a mountain of parts sandblasting in a production line that is what I have underway. The shell still needs the PS firewall installed and the VX specific brackets before it can go to SPL for stripping and treating. It has already had sills off end to end strutural new metal welded in to a very high standard.

My very tidy VX coupe interior is carefully stored.

I am building to 250 maybe 260Bhp so the LSD is waiting to go in the VX gearbox.

This is an epic project  

Eric
Truly awesome Eric! I would be quiet happy with 160bhp never mind 260bhp! Do I get a ride when its up and running? Be good to see how you get on with the LSD too.
Well thats a mental spyder covered, weve got my unusual choice of a track car, with Mark Ws going along a similar line but even more modified, so whos going to do a special saloon then?
Have you been following this car? hongkongphooey's, beautiful build.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16545001@N03/sets/72157622844850919/
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WestonE
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2010, 09:55:01 PM »

Andy

I will be at the AGM tomorrow in the Monte. I need 2 full winters to get close on the spyder as it involves so much contracted work like a custom exhaust and a new Autosparks loom.

Marcus the LSD I took out of my Monte is waiting to go in the VX box, but I may still need to up rate the rear spings or shorten the rear strut rods to control squat under power which is the Beta's biggest issue with putting power down. I have the Spax units and BB springs waiting. I ran a 180bhp engine in my previous Beta Spyder now Terry Woods, but without that engine! I needed the sticky Yokos on 7x 15s and care with the throttle. Hence I have 7x 15s with 205s and have modified the rear arches to take them.

I enjoy the chalenge!!

Eric 
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andybeta
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 09:47:33 PM »

Eric and Marcus,

Nice to catch up with you both at the AGM and have a long chat. Haven't got around to making an airbox yet, but it is on my to do list. Good luck with both your cars.

All the best,

Andrew
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