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Author Topic: My HPE....now a rolling recommission  (Read 10817 times)
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Nigel
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« Reply #140 on: June 09, 2022, 10:32:39 PM »


Unfortunately the first bearing listed [499] is too large in outer circumference, the other dimensions match.
I haven't yet identified another which might match.
Eric, I know it was a while ago you built your box, but do you have any more helpful info?

Regards, Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
squiglyzigly
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« Reply #141 on: June 10, 2022, 09:42:18 AM »

Hi Nigel,
This is my information that I have accrued over the years.
When I rebuilt my late i.e./VX gearbox last year it was correct.

Primary shaft
Late gearbox uses double row larger bearing on 4th/5th gear outer end
Fiat 60808434, 7745838

ORDERED Eco torque ltd
SKF  444455 C or BA2B 633668A     GB12152S01 SNR
AG Automotive 3260014AG

Dimensions 28x67x28.2

I believe this information correct but I’m not 100% on all of it.
Hope this helps


Ian

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VX HPE (resto started Sept ‘21)
Beta Saloon 2.0l s2 1979 (completed July 2020)
Beta coupé VX (completed April 2017)
WestonE
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« Reply #142 on: June 10, 2022, 09:48:28 AM »

Hi Nigel

Packing for moving has my reference info buried in a Lock up. I know I used an Integrale Base Bearing and the Integrale double row bearing as well but have no numbers here to refer to.

Sorry

Eric   
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squiglyzigly
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« Reply #143 on: June 10, 2022, 09:49:45 AM »

Which is the other bearing you are looking for?
The second shaft inner for the pinion end?

Secondary shaft pinion end no. 82310130 SKF BC1B 635051 B - this Is a 14 pin metal cage roller 42x80x18. N12099-SNR full compliment

N12099 bearing can be sought from a number of bearing suppliers or indeed fleabay.

Again this was correct for my late box

Ian



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VX HPE (resto started Sept ‘21)
Beta Saloon 2.0l s2 1979 (completed July 2020)
Beta coupé VX (completed April 2017)
Nigel
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« Reply #144 on: June 10, 2022, 04:50:23 PM »

Ian,
Those cross-references for the Primary Rear have really helped.
No uk stock so far, but i'll continue looking.....

All the others I now have, so many thanks.

Eric, thanks for responding.

Cheers, Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
Nigel
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« Reply #145 on: June 22, 2022, 10:49:47 PM »

The gearbox work has properly started with an inspection
of the diff. The right side output shaft splines had visible wear,and I measured
the end-float at 0.50, this is at least 0.20 too much, but as I wish to use that crownwheel assembly I
stripped the other,complete,diff to extract that side shaft. I then put it back together
and got lucky with the end-float shim sizes, and achieved 0.25 on both sides,result.

I've now got the diff back in its housing, without any flange seals in
preparation for the pre-load adjustment. I've used my 2 shims together behind the
right-side flange,and nipped up the 4 bolts until I got a feelable loading,then
measured the gap between flange and casing. The calc deduced a 2.35 shim requirement.
Luckily, Bayless has this plus the 2 either side of this size i.e. 2.30 and 2.40 hence my order,
figuring that any error should be able to be corrected with all 3.

I've been closely looking at Paul Valente's photos and info on an FB post of
a build he did some 5 years ago. Extremely detailed and valuable. [ a link is in the
'Transmission' section,kindly posted by PeeWee ]

I made up a 'tool' to lock the left-side output flange to the pinion carrier, a rather simple
plastic tube from my plumbing stock,and it works a treat. It's this detail that's missing from
the Haynes manual,without this 'tool' a preload is impossible as you'd be conflicted
with the planetary gears turning.

Now on a ,hopefully short, pause as I await parts.
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
peteracs
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Peter Stokes


« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2022, 05:25:08 AM »

Good stuff Nigel, have you looked at the gearbox gears yet?

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Beta HPE S2 pre F/L 1600
Nigel
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« Reply #147 on: June 24, 2022, 10:53:56 PM »

Peter,
An early look didn't reveal anything untoward, but I was still hoping
to find the reason it was stripped in the first place. It all looked fine until
I found yesterday that first gear is almost impossible to select [ by sliding the hub manually]

Much inspection followed, and still does. The hub will not slide over the gear dogs.
Excuse terminology.
More looking tomorrow, but I may well be tearing down the other [complete] gearbox
to harvest some parts, something until now I was trying to avoid. However,as i've already
taken an output shaft from the diff, it's not complete anyway.

Help, I'm running out of space! Kitchen table next.
Logged

1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
peteracs
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Peter Stokes


« Reply #148 on: June 25, 2022, 11:51:17 AM »

Hmm not likely to get any car parts near the kitchen in our house, divorce would be on the cards.

If you need a n other gearbox/parts, albeit not VX, let me know as here a few spares!

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Beta HPE S2 pre F/L 1600
Nigel
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« Reply #149 on: June 27, 2022, 10:47:06 PM »

My shim calcs were out slightly for some reason.
Nevertheless, here's a question:

In which way would be preferable, a preload thats on the loose side
or on the tight side of given parameters? Is there a good-practice erring?

Your opinions...
Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
squiglyzigly
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« Reply #150 on: June 28, 2022, 09:47:11 AM »

Kind of depends how loose/tight?

Ian
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VX HPE (resto started Sept ‘21)
Beta Saloon 2.0l s2 1979 (completed July 2020)
Beta coupé VX (completed April 2017)
Nigel
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« Reply #151 on: June 28, 2022, 06:38:56 PM »

Ian,
In the time since I asked that question I visited a huge engineering firm
near me and asked if they could make a 2.25 shim. Indeed they could,
and they wouldn't even let me buy them a drink. Thanks to Mark at MKE.

And, of course, they can make any thickness,so that query becomes irrelevant.

Shim inserted,side plates sans seals, and a suitable mid-range mass and it almost wants
to rotate. Adding 100 grams and off it goes. So i'm nicely in the middle.

I'll now fit the seals and O rings and this part is complete.



* Diff pre-load_resized.jpg (279.87 KB, 490x1008 - viewed 118 times.)

* Diff pre-load 2_resized.jpg (218.54 KB, 490x1008 - viewed 124 times.)
Logged

1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
WestonE
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« Reply #152 on: June 28, 2022, 09:00:22 PM »

Hi Nigel

Well done! I have just found a list of Gearbox Bearings as I strip my office to move. Shared here.


* Beta and Montecarlo Gearbox Bearing References.pdf (292.83 KB - downloaded 16 times.)
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Nigel
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« Reply #153 on: July 03, 2022, 05:48:51 PM »

Eric,
That list is quite helpful, thanks. I've now got all the parts I need
[minus the unforeseen items] to continue the build. I'm now figuring out
tools to pull off the bearings and gears from the secondary shaft.

Meantime,i've come across an issue with the column cowling.
As noted previously here, I have a left-hand-drive switch fitted,
and now i'm attempting to fit the pair of LHD cowls. There's a
large spade connector for the lights that is fouling the lower half.

I think that I may have to trim the lower half to make it fit, unless i'm doing
something wrong [which is quite likely!]
It's not a common issue I know.





* 20220703_Column Cowl(0)_resized.jpg (179.55 KB, 490x1008 - viewed 96 times.)
Logged

1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
Nigel
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Posts: 587



« Reply #154 on: July 08, 2022, 07:44:14 PM »

Back to the gearbox, and i've now got the secondary shaft stripped ready
to install the diff-end bearing. It took some making of plates to wrap
around and fit under gears etc, quite a faff but very satisfying.

While I build up the shaft i'll be selecting the best of the synchro rings,measuring
the gap [1mm +- 0.13mm] as per Haynes. The larger the better,indicating less wear.

The new diff-end bearing doesn't have a cage,instead it's got a circlip holding it
together. This means it'll be slightly more tricky to insert the two shafts simultaneously
into their housings. It doesn't appear to matter which way the bearing goes onto the shaft.

I've got some various sizes of aluminium and steel tubing which i'll cut to size for pressing on
the gears and bearings.

Perhaps by tomorrow evening i'll be ready to start the box reassembly.
Logged

1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
Nigel
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United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 587



« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2022, 10:12:59 PM »

The build up of the gearbox was uneventful ,and today I got
the old box out and new one in. It wasn't easy, quite stubborn,
and I have aching joints I didn't know existed.

Not finished, loads of reassembly still to do, but the hard part's done,pheww.

No dental floss used this time. I cut heads off and slotted 2 bolts to use as
guides, they also keep the spacer plate in position. I also slotted
the hard-to-get-to rear gearbox mounting holes. Much easier to fit now.

Nigel
Logged

1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
Nigel
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Posts: 587



« Reply #156 on: July 12, 2022, 08:03:35 PM »

The gearbox build was actually done twice, and I forgot to
mention that the primary shaft rear bearing wasn't the correct version.
It measured exactly except for one detail, the position of the
circlip slot which can be seen in the photo. This, I found, prevented
the retainer plate from seating correctly. The right hand in the image
is the correct original.


So I elected to use one of the used bearings,the least visibly worn. Rationale being
that I really wanted to try out the VX ratio without further delay, and that I can
change that bearing later without removing the bellhousing/diff.

I can hear that used bearing but it's a whole lot quieter that the box of spanners that came out.

And a brisk road test resulted in 70mph [google speed] at 3200rpm.
Performance through the gears remains without noticeable difference.


* 20220712 Pri Rear Bearings VX_resized_1.jpg (310.69 KB, 490x1008 - viewed 48 times.)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 08:05:19 PM by Nigel » Logged

1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
peteracs
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Posts: 3111


Peter Stokes


« Reply #157 on: July 12, 2022, 09:57:44 PM »

Hi Nigel

Good result apart from that bearing. How did the car pull in 5th as opposed to steady speed running?

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Beta HPE S2 pre F/L 1600
Nigel
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« Reply #158 on: July 12, 2022, 10:27:12 PM »

Good point Peter, and,as i'm going to do another road test tomorrow
evening, I'll do a timed run from 50 to 70 in top gear at full throttle.

That should give a sort of idea, unless you have a more useful parameter.
I'll also try a 0 to 60 as well,as it's a common benchmark.

Regards
Nigel
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1984 2.0 Carb HPE [ex Aus] Grigio Finanza.
2007 Mazda 6 2.3 [current daily, highly recommended]
The past:
1980 2.0 HPE White in South Africa [hope it survives!]
1976 1.6 Coupe Lancia Blu [PFG 76R] [probably deceased]
oh,and an Uno Turbo 1997 also in SA [stolen,never recovered]
peteracs
Administrator
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United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3111


Peter Stokes


« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2022, 07:26:25 AM »

Hi Nigel

I would have thought the intermediate gears would be not an issue, just change up speeds different. The big question is how well your essentially standard carb car copes with varying gradients in 5th, where it may struggle on motorway climbs etc whilst keeping up with the traffic.

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Beta HPE S2 pre F/L 1600
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