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Author Topic: Electronic alternative to distributor on 2000 carb Beta  (Read 1606 times)
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mangocrazy
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« on: October 21, 2019, 10:55:50 PM »

I've been giving some thought recently to the ignition side of the 2000 Beta motor I am so laboriously rebuilding, and was wondering if there is a fairly simple (plug and play would be lovely) alternative to the block-mounted distributor on the carb 2000 model. Ideally I would like a unit that provided the standard advance curve (or allowed it to be programmed in), with the option to modify it to a degree (pardon the pun).

It would obviously also need to provide the distributor function but would all be done in solid state, rather than using counterweights and springs. Does such a thing exist, and if so does anyone have any recommendations? It would also need to interface with the MSD Ignition box and coil I have and am intending to fit. My Beta is one of the later S2FL models with electronic ignition, but still uses the block-mounted dizzie.

I'm a complete dunce on these matters, so apologies if what I'm asking is painfully obvious...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
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1980 Yamaha RD350LC
Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2019, 07:36:27 AM »

Do Eric Weston's mods involve a non block distributor? (Eric?)
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smithymc
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2019, 05:09:47 PM »

I think I would ask H & H Ignition services - they converted my dizzie to contactless while refurbing it and am sure they would do more high tech options, but yes, Eric is an invaluable source of course.

Mark



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mangocrazy
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2019, 06:18:29 PM »

I've contacted H&H ignition and they sound as if they can do exactly what is needed, even subtly tweaking the internal mechanism to take advantage of any engine mods I will have done. They say that the distributor will be returned to absolutely as new condition. Thanks for the heads-up! I'd still like to hear what Eric has to say on this, and be made aware of any programmable options, but at least I know I can return the distributor to as-new condition, with the option of some tweaks.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2019, 07:30:30 PM »

Hi Neil

It all depends of course! I would use a trigger wheel and a wasted spark coil pack with a sensor on the carb spindle and an ignition ECU on a tuned engine running win carbs. This is the modern version of the Fiat Stada Abarth set up with 3d mapped ignition curves and no distributor to fail.

Trigger Wheel .com provide a lot to help do this.

Eric
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2019, 01:23:57 PM »

Thanks for the reply, Eric - this is a whole new area for me! Having looked at Trigger-wheels.com I was pleasantly surprised by the prices of trigger wheels and coilpack kits, although I'm not sure what else I will need and where I would source the parts from. I'm also not sure how the parts you mention would interface with ignition parts I've already bought. These are an MSD 6AL ignition box and matching MSD Blaster 2 coil. Would these be compatible with the trigger wheel setup you mention?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2019, 08:40:05 PM »

Hi Graham

Stay with what you have BUT check with H&H that the sensor (optical, Hall effect or moving magnet) in the distributor they are doing for you will work with the coil and amplifier. Get a vacuum advance on the distributor if you can it is the only way it will be able to sense engine load unless they have some form of Map sensor needing a connection to the inlet manifold. Ask how will the advance curve by modeled for your car and how is it changed and by who if it is not a good match for the engine. Can it be set up at a rolling road and who do they recommend who knows how to do it?

The reason for 3D mapped ignition is to provide ignition advance appropriate to engine load and speed across the full rev and load range. This gives the best possible power economy and starting. The 36 - 1 tooth trigger wheel gives accurate engine speed and either a MAP (manifold pressure sensor) or TPS throttle position sensor gives engine load even better there is an engine temperature sensor and ignition is corrected for that. You need an ECU wired to do this and rolling road time setting up the map. Megajolt/ Megasquirt are cheapest then Canems.

When Darren Cooksey did the Stealth IE he used an Emerald K6 ECU which is what I used on Fuel injected tuned Twin Cams before the complexity of Supercharging and needing individual cylinders trims, coil per cylinder and sequential injection. A wasted spark coil is normally used with off the shelf plug leads. There are no moving points to wear out, burn or slip. Modern cars use a coil on plug per cylinder to remove the HT lead and provide individual cylinder ignition trimming when required. On my supercharged Montecarlo I use GM LS1 individual cylinder coil packs with short custom HT leads and a Link Fury ECU for individual cylinder ignition and injection settings alongside additional injectors outbound of the Abarth Volumetrico R10(037) Supercharger.  

Fitting this stuff is basic engineering fabrication and wiring by following the diagram in the manual and reading the book by Dave Walker to reduce the errors.  


I hope this provides a little light on the mystery of mapped ignition.

Cheers

Eric    
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2019, 10:16:54 PM »

Phew! Thanks, Eric - a very detailed exposition... It certainly arms me with some questions to ask H&H. I also have a distributor with vacuum advance fitted (I think it was from a carb 1600 engine), so maybe that might be a better option for them to use as a basis (unless they can supply vacuum advance units of their own). The manifold I will be using (a GC offset Beta-specific item) has one large tapping on the top - is this for the brake servo or for vacuum advance (or both?).

I think initially I'd go with a modified distrbutor setup as you outline, then investigate the mysteries of mapped ignition at my leisure. I can certainly see the benefits of no moving parts and being able to refine the fuelling, but (correct me if I'm wrong) to take full advantage of mapped ignition, you really need to go to fuel injection. A halfway house of mapped ignition with carbs would be slightly missing the point if I read you correctly.

I've got 3 motorbikes with EFI, but it was original fitment so I don't need to get involved with the complexities. The most recent one has full fly-by-wire throttle control, but the all the maps are write protected as it's all Euro-5 compliant, and they run the closed loop lean as hell, making low speed throttle control rather finicky and unpleasant. But I digress...
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
WestonE
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2019, 10:00:28 AM »

Hi Graham

Give H&H a 2000 and 1600 Distributors and make sure they know which is which. Use the 2000 advance weights and springs with the 1600 vacuum advance as I did on the engine I did for Terry Wood's car. If you have the factory advance curve info give them that as well. Not much more that can be done with weights and springs without hours of development apart from fiddling with the stops for changing the staring advance or max advance.

The GC manifold main take off is for the servo but you can get different fittings and can take vacuum from ports in the carbs.

I fitted drive by wire to my monte from a porsche and I am also fitting it to my VX FI Beta Spyder.

Enjoy

Eric     
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2019, 02:26:11 PM »

Thanks Eric. That certainly looks like A Plan to me...

Graham
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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