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Berlinettaphil
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« on: April 10, 2019, 09:28:15 AM »

Hi I have just taken delivery of something sleek and Italian that I lusted after as a young lad. Ok so it's a 1981 1300 beta coupe in two tone blue and iron oxide brown. Not saying r**t as everyone that sees her uses it in their first sentence. I said to business acquaintance (he makes jag xk body shells) that I was looking for a project. He said let me make a call and two weeks later it's at my unit. I'm not scared of body work and consider myself good with spanners as I'm a self employed engineer and have built/rebuilt cars for years.But a few lancia specific questions.

I have looked in manuals and the have timing marks on the timing belt cover mine doesn't it has a bolted on pointer approx 180 degrees round.

Where do you get spare key. Good laugh a timpsons "it's a what"

Trying to get her running before starting the rebuild. And the first problem is a weak spark. When the car arrived it looks like the previous owner had the same problem as there were three coils, set of plug leads and a electronic ignition amp in the boot. I have read on other posts that some betas were fitted with ballast coils with ballast attached to the coil. Mine doesn't. I'm thinking of putting a ballast coil on to see if it up's the spark. I'll try hot wiring it a twelve volts.

There was a brand new air filter in the car but the previous owner took the filter housing lid off and it wasn't in the car so if anybody has one I'm in the market. Also a front indicator lens.

More info the car was taken of the road in 1992 with 49k on the clock and has only the original owner on the log book. Am I a fool or was 600 a good price. I don't really care but it would be nice if I could get her to run.

Cheers in anticipation
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peteracs
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 10:26:55 AM »

Hi Phil(?)

For a start 600 sounds like a decent price for a reasonable project assuming pretty much all there, the interior is not a basket case and the rust is not too terminal or extensive. If you are doing it yourself, then that will help no end.

The 1300 was the odd one out in the engine front, but one or two owners on here who can help with identifying what it had originally. On the ignition, check the earthing as with all old cars. Personally I would look to add an electronic unit to the points which keeps it simple, but avoids the burning issue of the points etc.

Some photos would be good to see.

I was wondering if this was Niels's old car, but then realised being off the road since the 90s it could not be, which given the last photos of it is a good thing!

I have some spare indicator lenses and may have the air filter you need, but would need to check which you have as there was more than one and no idea what the 1300 came with.

All the best with the restoration.

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
Berlinettaphil
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 11:33:59 AM »

Hi Peter

The beta already has  electronic ignition and I guess as there is some spark that it is working. My assumption was that it was downstream of the coil. I have a new ballasted coil on my Marlin berlinetta that I know is ok (always useful when fault finding). Does anyone know if an 81 with electronic ignition should be a ballasted coil or not?. By the way the trim is fair condition which is good because I can't mend it with a mig welder and angle grinder. Very interested in parts bet you live in lands end or John o groats.

Cheers Phil
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capriblu
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2019, 02:14:56 PM »

Presumably it has the Bosch electronic ignition set up that was common to facelift models.  This did use a ballasted coil. Over the years I have run several Betas with this ignition arrangement and invariably found spark to be very poor - the output from the amplifier/control pack is weak.

See my thoughts and solution to problem on my current car in post I made several years ago ...........

Why not send H&H the whole ignition set-up, coil leads etc.. and they will test the lot for you.  This is what they recommended I did so sent them the lot in well packed shoebox!   My system (Bosch Electronic Ignition off 2litre Carb) checked out OK but I took their advice and swapped the original Bosch black box for an alternative trigger/amplifier unit that they built into the distributor (which they rebuilt) and a conventional (non ballasted) coil.  I'm convinced spark is much stronger than before and I've finally managed to eliminate the part throttle hesitation on my coupe that I had endured for too many years despite numerous carb swaps / rebuilds etc.   I think the design of the DAT/DATR carbs produces a slight mixture issue at the transition between 1st and 2nd choke openings and that this is exacerbated if spark strength is a bit weak.
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peteracs
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2019, 05:53:06 PM »

Hi Phil

Not even close, I am near Grantham in Lincolnshire. I have a fair few Coupe parts which I was gifted last year as well as a few engines I have bought in non running state together with a few parts from a couple of Spiders I broke. So let me know what you are after. The only body panels are a sunroof from a coupe and boot from Spyder.

I do have a number of alloy wheels which will need refurbishing, but can also be good for use on restoration to save the decent ones being damaged.

Peter
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Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
Berlinettaphil
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2019, 07:11:52 PM »

Hi Peter,

I'm in north west Leicestershire so not as far as I have driven for bits in the past and when I started with the beta I anticipated spending more, travelling further and waiting longer. As well as spare parts it would be good to look over another beta that works. It's been so long since I have seen one and I don't honestly know what to expect, sorry I have spent too long messing with fords and triumphs. As of now the bits I think I am missing are

Air filter top plate
Front indicator lens
Clip in plastic pieces in the middle of window winders
Digital clock.
A spare distributor to convert to 21st century electronic ignition
Water pump

Cheers
Phil
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HFStuart
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2019, 08:31:43 PM »

Phil,

The timing marks on the cambelt cover are the ones for the crankshaft pulley. When you say bolted on pointer do you mean the one or the cams? If there's a bolted on pointer 180 round on the crank pulley someone has been trying to time it on No.4 cylinder rather than No.1  - which works so long as you KNOW that's what you're doing. A pic would be of use here.

There's a guy in Oz that can cut blank Lancia keys from a decent quality photo - I've used him. Search on the forum for keys you'll probably find some links. I think others on here have used a similar service from the UK.
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Berlinettaphil
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2019, 09:11:36 PM »

Hi Stuart?

The steel pointer looks like a genuine part and there are no markings on the belt cover so this is the only mark to work with. Being over the other side below the water pump if the crank pulley marks were in the standard place it would be tdc on 2 and 3 but with the timing mark against the pointer it's tdc on 1 and 4 (pencil down plug hole test) as it should be. I don't think this is the cause of the engine not running but it will be useful when setting it up. Need to generate a decent spark first then worry when it happens later. I will check posts on keys.

Cheers
Phil
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peteracs
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2019, 09:48:12 PM »

Hi Phil

I will PM you my details. Should have some of the parts you need.

As to keys, try this thread

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1473.0

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
Berlinettaphil
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 08:05:07 AM »

Thanks Peter

Message me and we can sort a suitable day time.

Thanks
Phil
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peteracs
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 09:08:47 AM »

Hi Phil

Done.

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
Neil-yaj396
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1979 1300 Coupe 1983 2000ie Coupe


« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2019, 12:40:50 PM »

1300 facelift should have Marelli rather than Bosch ignition. Easy to identify as the coil sits on top of the unit. The log white lead from the ignition pack feeds a module in the matched distributor. I might have one if that's the bit that's playing up. I changed my coil last year and just fitted a standard one from ebay which has been fine.

The 1300 also has a shallower air filter casing that the 1600, but I think that the lid is the same.

My clock was playing up when I bought the car. I disconnected it and bought a new one, but haven't got round to fitting it in 5 years!
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Berlinettaphil
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2019, 04:56:28 PM »

Hi Neil yes the coil does sit on a large heat sink with the amp on top so I guess it is marelli. There is a spark but very weak which gives a slight fire for a couple of seconds. Not really running perhaps just 5 or 6 light pops bit hard to describe. The car is progressing rapidly on the strip down but I wanted to get it fired up before dropping the subframe etc. It needs a lot of welding! I bought a copy of the Haynes manual of eBay but I guess it is based on a 1600 or 2000 as the ignition system doesn't match and neither does the timing markings. Have you ever seen a steel pointer on the left of the crank pulley? I have the base of the air filter just not the lid so your info means I stand a chance of finding one. I should have known the engine would have been a problem when there were multiple coils, amps and plug leads and plugs in the boot I'm assuming that's why it went off the road in 92 and only just emerged. I'm thinking of putting a ballast coil on to try and fire it but wiring it straight 12 volts in, if it fires it proves the engine is ok and I can worry about this at a later date. I thought I could fit an accuspark unit and by carefully modification it would look stock from the outside. I could make my own adaptor plate etc. Next scary bit is I've got get the screen out to sort out the lower frame. I have never been in a running beta are you in reasonable distance of the midlands I would like to see one in the living flesh.

Cheers
Phil
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2019, 06:17:02 PM »

The pointer is normal for most electronic ignition cars, if I've time I'll try to dig out the info on it
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peteracs
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2019, 09:16:54 PM »

Hi Phil

There were two types of fitting for the screen, from early to quite late on they were originally fixed in with a hot wire system, i.e. The seal was installed and then a current passed through an embedded wire to heat and seal it. This is a bit of a pig to remove, just take your time with a Stanley knife or similar. I guess the professionals will use a cheese wire type of gadget, but the embedded wire makes life difficult either way. The later system which was only around for the last few years was more conventional reusable seal with insert. Be aware that the screens are of a slightly different size for either system, the reusable seal version being just slightly smaller. As far as I know you can use either type of screen in any car, you just need to use the appropriate seal system. Obviously to replace the original bonded type nowadays you would use a more modern system which is common to modern cars.

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
rossocorsa
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2019, 12:47:30 PM »

Ignition timing is 10 degrees static, 28 advanced degrees at 3000 rpm (38 degrees total) at crank. Best set with a strobe (vac adv disconnected) you will probably find marks on the crank pulley turn engine to tdc and that should give you an indication of which is tdc.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3BA1P58JBv4xq3e2A

See the above, ignition timing as always slightly confusing on Betas as the information is badly written.

I'm not familiar with the 1300 system, is there an amplifier unit under the heat sink? Might be worth replacing that, also check the sensor unit in the dizzy (item 4) the wires going into these often fray over time causing issues.

I would fix the standard unit rather than change to after market, they probably simply misunderstood the whole thing. Oh also make sure all earths are good.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 04:16:10 PM by rossocorsa » Logged
capriblu
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 07:53:37 AM »

Unless there is an absolute need to keep everything looking perfectly original then I cant see any logical reason why you wouldn't choose to replace 40 year old electronics with 21st century equipment.  Both in consideration of age and design then any 1970s/80s vintage amplifier unit (especially italian!!) is hardly going to be the best. The cost to change is modest (a few tanks of fuel) and well worth it in my opinion.  (You can always keep the original equipment).
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2019, 09:44:00 AM »

Unless there is an absolute need to keep everything looking perfectly original then I cant see any logical reason why you wouldn't choose to replace 40 year old electronics with 21st century equipment.  Both in consideration of age and design then any 1970s/80s vintage amplifier unit (especially italian!!) is hardly going to be the best. The cost to change is modest (a few tanks of fuel) and well worth it in my opinion.  (You can always keep the original equipment).

I'm thinking that he just wants to get it going for now. I don't think that the original systems are too bad is my guess that the previous owner was barking up the wrong tree with their repair atempts
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Neil-yaj396
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1979 1300 Coupe 1983 2000ie Coupe


« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2019, 07:15:00 AM »

There is a module under the heat sink. I'm near Bradford if you want to come and have a look.....
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Berlinettaphil
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2019, 11:54:33 PM »

I did want to get the engine running before dropping the front subframe to do the bodywork. At the moment using a timing light is out as it fires while cranking but doesn't run on its own. 1300 guys there are three marks on the crank pulley it appears that the first mark it comes to rotating clockwise is tdc right. I have compression checked it and got 150 ish psi on all 4. Almost every engine I have messed with in the past with fuel/easy start poured down the carb and a bit of a spark you get 5-10 seconds of running but this doesn't. I just feel there isn't a strong enough spark as fuel isn't a problem. I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking of waiting till the engine is out, giving everything a clean and doing a top end strip then firing it up on the test bench. As for accuspark conversion I need someone to sell me a spare dizzy.

I have removed (carefully) the trim from around the screen and it is a bonded version. I have found the heating wire and it found me by penetrating deeply into a finger ouch! I can see how people think it is a seal type as when the trim comes of it looks very uniform. I am pleased with this as I feel it makes replacing easier with any slight imperfections after welding.

Other than the above all is progressing well. And if another person says "your brave" to me I swear I'll go away and buy an mgb.
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