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Author Topic: Front Strut Mount Bearing Replacement  (Read 4103 times)
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Gromit
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« on: October 16, 2017, 10:03:39 AM »

I was hoping to source a pair of front strut mount bearings for a 1979 Series 2 Beta Coupe. I have seen it referred to as a front thrust plate elsewhere in this old thread and in the Haynes workshop manual:

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2090.0

I gather that it is a needle roller bearing, identified as part #17 in the workshop manual exploded diagram which I found in another thread here (reply#5):

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1782.0

I have been advised in Australia that there were two different sized front strut mount bearings used in Lancia Betas.

So I have some questions requiring assistance:

1) Can anyone confirm that there were indeed two different sized front strut bearings in use on Lancia Betas?

2) Can anyone advise me of the correct sized strut bearing for a 1979 S2 Lancia Beta Coupe RHD sold new into Australia?

3) Is there an accessible factory part number for this bearing? If yes can anyone provide it or point me in the right direction to locate the right part number?

4) Assuming answers can be found for 1 to 3, can anyone direct me to where I might be able to procure a pair of these elusive strut mount bearings?

I had thought that the UK custom manufactured Compbrake aftermarket "Lancia Beta front strut mount" with bearing might have been a replacement option if needed but apparently they do not fit and do not last in any case based on advice in previous threads on the subject.

Any information or advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers.


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peteracs
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 10:45:08 AM »

Hi

Hmm...  This is one of those which I struggled with to find a source. I ended up buying one from a guy in the US who just happened to have one, when it came it was the correct needle roller bearing, but incorrect seal and I was lucky enough to have a spare seal in a box of bits and my other bearing was ok to reuse, you also may need the plate it rolls against as that has also been reported that it can deform. Eric W's suggestion to use waterproof grease is also a good suggestion.

I think these were used on the early Delta, but I have no proof or refs, there was at least two different styles of bearing (I have one of each) but both fit the same strut. I thought the struts were the same, but later IE/VX may be different in this respect.

Sorry that I cannot help with a source, hopefully someone can come along with words of wisdom!

Peter
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HFStuart
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 07:08:02 PM »

I've encountered two different types on Beta front struts. They are similar but not interchangeable. The good news is I think the different top mount types are overall identical - even if the components aren't

Mark W used to do refurbished top mounts - it might be worth dropping him a line.

I'm not sure which version suits the later models or if it was available separately but I'll have a look in the parts book when I get home tomorrow.
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 07:10:53 PM »

They are difficult to find, you really need to get the struts/mount apart and check the bearings they might just need a good clean up  and lubrication, if you are lucky. Not sure that Delta are the same they look similar but might not be the same size.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 07:39:50 PM »

To me these look suspiciously like needle roller thrust bearings (rather than the more common radial bearings). I found this PDF on the web that goes into way more detail than you will probably need, but may help you to identify a non-OE part that will do the job satisfactorily.

http://www.bearing.co.il/E1425.pdf

And Nadella bearings of this type (Italian, I believe) are readily available in the UK. Not so sure about oil seals, although they should be as well.

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=3_29_33

« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 07:45:08 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

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Gromit
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2017, 01:19:33 AM »


Thank you for your replies. Much appreciated. Any parts number info would be appreciated Stuart. Who is Mark W by the way?

It seems that the early Delta strut bearing compatibility with Betas is a bit of an unknown quantity and would need to be checked first dimension wise with the ones on the car, assuming that Delta thrust bearings are more readily available than Beta ones.

Those two links could be very useful mangocrazy to match an equivalent aftermarket bearing. I am amazed that there is such an extensive range dimensions and specifications wise of needle roller thrust bearings available. I know my father did contact a few local bearing suppliers in Australia a while a go and was told he needed a part number or accurate dimensions or a sample bearing to match something. Of course none of that is possible until the struts are stripped down and old bearings inspected which he did not want to do unless he had the replacement bearings on hand. A bit of a vicious circle in that regard.

I guess we will just have to do the strip down and inspection and be prepared for the car to be laid up at a workshop for a while if new bearings need to be matched and sourced. It is surprising that some aftermarket equivalent has not been identified on the forum or elsewhere previously given how hard it is to locate good or new examples of the original bearings. If we do remove the strut bearings in the coupe I shall definitely post precise dimensions and details of any equivalent replacement bearing to help out other Beta owners.

I know my father had to replace the strut bearings in his `84 S3 HPE many years ago. It would make a groaning sound on one side when he reversed out of his garage over the 6 to 8cm drop down from the garage floor to the driveway level. He never heard it on the open road with all of the engine and wind noise and of course the power steering masked any heavy steering symptoms. Anyway after insisting that his mechanic strip down the suspect strut, (Tony was never too keen on doing the heavier duty jobs(!), although he was a great Fiat factory trained mechanic who was brought out to Adelaide from Italy by the local dealer), they discovered that it was completely disintegrated - just a mashed up mess. They managed to source second hand ones on that occasion from a local Fiat wrecker (TAIF - long since gone out of business in Adelaide) as they could not get a new one at the time.

I am not sure just how bad the strut bearings really are in the Coupe, there are no groaning sounds evident but the steering is heavy at low speeds. Traversing a suburban roundabout is a bit of an effort. We did fit new tyres to the front which helped a bit and keep the front tyre pressures high (36psi cold) but it still requires a fair degree of effort to steer it in parking situations. On the open road it is fine until you get to very tight low speed corners. It is a long time since I have owned my 81 Beta so I don`t have a good idea as to what is normal steering load for a Beta without power assistance and with strut bearings in good condition.

Anyway, thanks once again for your inputs and let me know if anyone else has any bright suggestions re sources of supply for strut mount bearings or aftermarket alternatives.

Cheers.





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Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 07:04:19 AM »

Heavy steering can also be down to failure of the bearing where the steering column enters the rack.

Mark W = Betaboyz Parts http://353652584127257704.weebly.com/
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peteracs
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 10:28:04 AM »

Hi

Here is the parts page with the part nos and exploded diagram.

I do have an old one which is currently at my parents in store, so if you are struggling to find the dimensions, I can hunt it out the next time I am over there.

The diagram shows the bearing as a thrust bearing and as a single piece item, but in reality it is a three part item, the main 'wafer' with the needle rollers and a 'plate' it rests on which has a seal all around the edge. There is also a 'plate' which fits against the other side of the bearing. The two 'plates' locate in the holes in items 16 and 25.

Peter

* Beta Strut.pdf (455.52 KB - downloaded 46 times.)
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Gromit
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2017, 10:03:38 PM »

Many thanks Peter for the clarification about the three part thrust bearing assembly. Looking at your supplied Parts diagram and numbers page, the official Lancia part number for a S2 Beta front strut thrust bearing assembly is #82303013.

It would be great if you could also accurately measure and post the dimensions of the thrust bearing assembly that you have in storage when you get the chance. We would need the inner diameter, outer diameter and width (ie height or depth) in mm to match an aftermarket bearing equivalent. If the thrust bearings in the Coupe are badly damaged, it may not be possible to get accurate measurements from them.

Thanks also to Neil for pointing out another potential cause of heavy steering via wear in the bearing at the base of the steering column.

Cheers,
Andrew
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Gromit
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 12:32:40 AM »

Looking at some of the other topics in the "Technical stuff - Steering" section, it would seem that a seized steering rack damper could also be a possible cause of heavy steering.

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2340.0

I gather from droptop`s experience that the steering damper can be dispensed with entirely if it is seized and a replacement too difficult or expensive to source.
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2017, 10:28:29 AM »

I've run mine both with and without with no noticeable difference. Certainly worth taking off to see if its the culprit.
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fred2660
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2017, 04:48:57 PM »

http://www.bielstein.com/lancia/beta/suspension/shock-absorber/roller-bearing-strut-front-top

no cheap
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Gromit
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 02:23:19 AM »

Thanks for the link Fred. You have to select English on the Bielstein website first (default is German) for that hyperlink to work (otherwise it takes you to the website German language home page).

That looks promising. The detailed description in the listing is as follows:

Roller bearing strut front top
Lancia Beta all except Montecarlo

corresponds OE-number: 82301195
(OE-numbers are only for comparison purposes)


So I assume that it is an aftermarket bearing. The OE number quoted in the Bielstein website listing is NOT the same as the part number 82303013 in the parts diagram and accompanying strut parts list kindly supplied by Peter as an attachment in reply #7 above. Is this significant? Does it refer to an earlier Beta series bearing part number perhaps? Also the inner bore of the Bielstein bearing listing appears to have a raised lip which is not evident in the bearing in the Lancia Beta workshop manual strut exploded diagram. Is that significant or is the workshop manual drawing not an accurate likeness of the actual bearing? Presumably the raised lip might help to locate the bearing in the strut top mount?

Can anyone who has replaced their strut bearings clarify whether this Bielstein one is likely to be the correct one fitting wise for a 1979 S2 Beta Coupe? Has anyone sourced the Bielstein ones and can confirm they fit? Any thoughts on the apparent difference in quoted OE part numbers? I shall send an email to Bielstein seeking some clarification of these questions but thought I would post here first.
 
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megaera
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2017, 04:56:09 PM »

Having read the OPís comment on the Compbreak bearing, I did a search for threads on the subject - particulary any mention of the bearings not fitting or lasting very well. Unfortunately, I cannot find them.

Please could someone either point me in the right direction - or share any experiences of these bearings? I was considering buying a pair....but in light of Gromitís comments, I am now hesitating!

Edit!

Sorry - too hasty in posting Roll Eyes   Found the various comments....I shall pass on the Compbrake Shocked
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 05:02:58 PM by megaera » Logged
swedgamma
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 06:44:52 AM »

Good morning!

 Bearings 8238210 1 are in my survival kit, if someone is in need I can send you a couple.
 NOS still in original package!

 Cheers/Swedgamma
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peteracs
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 07:42:00 AM »

Hi Gromit

Yes, the bearing should have a raised portion to locate the bearing plate in the strut top. The one I think I remember has a solid portion on one side and a few locating lugs on the other plate.

Peter
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swedgamma
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 08:07:39 AM »

Hello again!

.......which may be the one you dont want!!!! I got two kinds of thrust washers,the one with the number 82382210 1, the washer ( with a flange inside) size outside is 63 mm,
the bearing itself is 52,7 outside, 35,3 inside, while the other one ,which has no number and comes with a rubber seal, the flat washer is 58,5 outside, the bearing is 60 mm outside and 37,0 mm inside. All measurements give or take a couple of tenths and in mm.

Sorry for the confusion!

BR /swedgamma

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mangocrazy
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2017, 07:49:19 PM »

Hi Swedgamma,

Would it be possible for you to take some photos of the two types of thrust washer you have and post them up? That would be very, very helpful. Trying to visualise from a description is never as good as seeing an image. Unfortunately Photobucket have made posting pictures more difficult than before, so I apologise in advance for asking.

Cheers!

Graham
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2002 VW Transporter T4
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2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2017, 09:52:35 PM »

Good Evening!

Hmm, have to try tomorrow, if I understand this right the picture has to be taken down to 1500 kB!


Greetings Urban (swedgamma)
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Gromit
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 01:04:25 AM »

Thanks for posting Urban (aka Swedgamma). That is very good of you to offer to supply a couple of bearings ex your "survival kit" (a very apt description!), assuming they are the correct fitting ones. Cool

I thnk Mangocrazy`s suggestion of posting a couple of photos of the two different sized bearings is a great one. I know I was going a little crazy trying to visualise each one from your description.  Could you also post the bearing width (ie depth or thickness) in case that is also needed for matching purposes?

The variation in part numbers certainly also confuses the situation. I contacted UK based Simply Bearings with the original Lancia thrust bearing Series 2 OE part number 82303013 (see reply #8). They could not use it to cross reference an aftermarket alternative. We would need full bearing dimension specs to try to do that. Those bearing photos could also be very helpful in that regard.

I have also contacted Bielstein in Germany seeking clarification of the differing part numbers, full dimension specs and compatibility of the thrust bearing they list. They have not yet responded but will post again if and when they do reply.

There is a link to an expired Italian ebay listing on this thread http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2648.0, which identifies the original Lancia thrust bearing part number as #82301195, the same number referred to in the Bielstein listing:

http://www.ebay.it/itm/82301195-Cuscinetto-puntonesospensione-lancia-BETA-Berlina-Coupe-Spider-Hpe-/221341593836?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item3388fcb0ec&_uhb=1

Even if I can score some correct fitting bearings off Urban (Swedgamma), or the ones from Bielstein, I would still like to identify a correctly sized, decent quality aftermarket bearing alternative to help out other Beta owners in the future.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 09:11:02 AM by Gromit » Logged

Family Italian car fleet: 1979 Beta Coupe 2000, Fiat 124 Spyder (and a 2007 Fiat Punto!)
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