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Author Topic: FIA Homologation, proof for twin carbs and electronic ignition  (Read 4466 times)
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Jasonkennedy
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« on: February 09, 2015, 09:35:26 AM »

Hi, I'm refreshing my race Beta to go 'Youngtimer' racing in Europe (mainly on the Nurburgring) I am hoping to do this without a technical item known as HTP papers (Historical Technical Papers). If it turns out I do need HTP papers then if I am to use twin carburettors or electronic ignition I will need to show evidence that it was used in period in an International event. I have found mention of both items in Brian Long's book 'Lancia Sporting Coupes' (P172), and also of twin carburettors in his Beta book. I have also found several pictures of the works cars with twin carbs on the RAC and Monte Carlo rallies.

However the FIA give a priority order for evidence from strongest to weakest. The strongest would be evidence from the manufacturer in period, produced in manufacturers documentation or period magazine articles. The next strongest is from recognised experts who inspected the car. Of the least value, but which consideration will be given is books and magazine articles written out of period by reputable authors. Recent letters from
people, manufacturers of the period may also be considered.

Does anyone have any of this proof or any leads on where I can get it?
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peteracs
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 03:16:04 PM »

Hi Jason

Interesting subject and there is not a lot of info around. The main reason was that the Stratos was homologated for rallying at the same time as the Beta Coupe, the Beta was very much the poor relation and from what I have read only ran for approx 1 year (maybe 2?) in Intl events as part of the factory team.

I have a copy (maybe not complete) of the homologation papers if that helps, but depending on how strict they are, it will be a difficult one to replicate. The reason being that the G4 car ran a special Abarth 16V head as well as the twin IDF carbs, with the engine inclined even further than normal. The G3 car, I am unsure of as the G4 and G3 descriptions in everything I have read get merged, so suspect the G3 had only a single carb as per production. No idea if the car went circuit racing Internationally, just the records of the rally versions appear online/in print.

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
Jasonkennedy
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 08:20:50 PM »

Peter, thanks for the offer of the papers, I only managed to get an incomplete set from Lancia forums etc so I bought a complete set from the MSA. From my experience of FIA cars I've had and speaking to an MSA register, it is not necessary to completely replicate the specification that was used in period. It is possible to start with what was homologated as the standard car and then use just the modifications made in period that you want to use. As you say getting an 1800 cc engine with the Abarth twin cam head would be near impossible. FIA rules are a little clearer for pre 1965 cars as so many are raced, but for later periods such as that for the Beta it is difficult to find information or advice on what you can and can't do.

The Youngtimer Trophy organisation's rules as confirmed by themselves by e-mail should allow me to race with them as long as I have the Homologation papers and a vehicle registration document and the car conforms to these and is modified in accordance with the Appendix J of the period. I'm going to their test day in March so I'll see what they say then! Their only concern was that my roll cage did not have a certificate so I'm just finishing fitting an FIA homologated Sparco cage.
Cheers, Jason
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thecolonel
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 12:18:29 AM »

Hi JK,
I think idf would have been unlikely as they sit inline with
the body, more likely dcnf which sit across the car.

I would speak with Guisepoe  Volta,
he runs the historic Lancias and would
probably know what was used
back in the day.

He is on fb

Geoff
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 12:20:50 AM by thecolonel » Logged
peteracs
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 08:58:32 AM »

Hi Geoff

I believe this is a photo of the G4 engine.

I thought I had read that they were IDF, but happy to stand corrected.

Peter


* Beta_rally_engine.jpg (25.15 KB, 565x365 - viewed 577 times.)
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
rossocorsa
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 10:05:21 AM »

Dcoe ? Or Maybe dellorto
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 10:08:18 AM by rossocorsa » Logged
thecolonel
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 10:27:29 AM »

Hmmm, side draft so not idf or dcnf, probably dellorto,
they don't look like weber DCOE (no top cap).
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Jasonkennedy
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 11:17:10 AM »

They are documented in one of Brian Long's books as twin choke Dell'Ortos with 48mm throats. I know the FIA Datsuns run on Webers although they had Dell'Ortos or Solex in period. I am currently running Weber DCOEs.

Geoff when you say Guiseppoe is on fb, what does that mean? How would I contact him?
Thanks,
Jason
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Jasonkennedy
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 12:13:26 PM »

Geoff, the penny just dropped, but I'm not on facebook, is there any other way of contacting him?
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75coupe
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1975 Beta coupe 2L


« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 03:18:22 PM »

Carbs on the 16v motor are Dellorto 48DHLA. the curved ram pipes were originally fitted to Alfa 105 GTA's but are no longer available new, I've tried  for my Beta!

Jason you can contact Giuseppe Volta via email: voltaracing@voltaracing.com, he has a website as well.

just out of curiosity, how do you cope with oil surge on your race Beta?

Good luck!
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Jasonkennedy
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 06:44:00 PM »

Excellent I'll try Giuseppe. To combat oil surge I have a baffled sump and an Accusump that pumps oil in if low oil pressure is detected.
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thecolonel
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 09:38:34 PM »

Ah, answers already given.

Don't forget about Mick Covill, (rally legends)
He has the rear engined beta and is building
037 replicas. He may have some relevant info.

Geoff
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WestonE
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 03:05:15 PM »

Definitely Dellortoe DHLAs and I also ran those ram pipes with 45 DCOEs and the design works well with the longer GC side draft Beta manifold as it allows a top mounted filter and a baffle from the radiator hot air.

Eric

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archigraphe
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 10:00:46 AM »

Carbs on the 16v motor are Dellorto 48DHLA. the curved ram pipes were originally fitted to Alfa 105 GTA's but are no longer available new, I've tried  for my Beta!

Jason you can contact Giuseppe Volta via email: voltaracing@voltaracing.com, he has a website as well.

just out of curiosity, how do you cope with oil surge on your race Beta?

Good luck!

Hello you, say this "The" manifold from a 105GTA ? or it just looks like?

Thnak you.

All the information I Have is : Beta G3 : one single 34 DMTR carb, but with all modification on jetting.
Gr4 .....all modification "de l'Epoque".....authorized....

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