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Author Topic: Carb fuel pump  (Read 11459 times)
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smithymc
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« on: November 08, 2014, 01:34:37 PM »

The Lime has suffered from poor starting when left, as I guess you need to refill the carb. Even the clear fuel filter can be seen to be empty.

In coming to give her the fortnightly warm up to perk the battery and supposedly stop the above problem, can't get fuel even to the filter, even disconnecting the fuel hose and pointing it down into a container. Can hear the pump trying but suppose it has succumbed to age.

I see a few pumps for fiats on eBay and also on Ricambio Uk, supposed to fit betas, but they look the 'wrong' hand, I suppose to suit Fiat installs better. Apart from needing some longer fuel lines, is this likely to work ok? Or does anyone know of a source of pumps?

Thanks

Mark
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Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2014, 03:43:33 PM »

I can't find the thread where this was discussed at some length.

I think the Fiat pumps tend to be too tall and the inlet/outlet might be the wrong way round. The picture below is of a pump I fitted to YAJ which just fit without fouling the inlet manifold, so this was the tallest pump that would fit. It was so tight though that I had to fit the fuel lines before I tightened it to the block.

The actuating lever has to be the right length and angle as well.

If you post the ebay link we might be able to say if they will fit or not?


* IMG00641-20141108-1434.jpg (291.27 KB, 2048x1536 - viewed 506 times.)
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Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2014, 03:58:11 PM »

Mark at Betaboyz has some in stock for 45, but they seem a bit tall to me (95mm top to bottom). Like the pump above they might just squeeze in though?
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capriblu
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2014, 05:48:40 PM »

I've experienced the same issues and unfortunately have come to the conclusion that changes in modern pump fuel is as big a factor as any potential degradation in performance of the original (albeit weak) mechanical fuel pump.

After recomissioning after 6+ years off the road I too found starting after much more than a week or so without running could take a bit of time and cranking.  Changed pump to another original spare item that I had and found little improvement. Then fitted a new non OE part just like the one in Neils post above - just enough clearance to fit (1980 car).  Very slight improvement but still took an eternity to get enough fuel into carb to fire-up.  Left this new part on car but concluded probably not much wrong with original pumps.

What struck me as odd was that carb chambers seemed to empty within a week or so if car left unused.  I started to worry that fuel may have been leaking from carb but like yourself also noticed that fuel filter also seemed to hold very little residual trace of fuel.   In years gone by I've had the top off the carburettor of numerous betas that have been stood for several weeks always to find plenty of fuel in the chambers.  After a bit of research I'm now convinced that the modern generation of unleaded superfuels are quite a bit more volatile than fuel of even 10 years ago and that this does cause problems with old generation carburettor cars relying on very low pressure mechanically pumped systems.   I also find vapour lock problems far more common now than when I was running my coupe every day 20+ years ago.   Used to get Kangarooing and difficult starting if car had been on a long run with hot engine and allowed to stand for 30  minutes before restarting.  Now I find car can cut out if stood stationary whilst engine is running.  Again I think modern fuel is now that sufficiently more volatile to start to cause vapour locks in fuel pipes near exhaust end and in engine bay even when engine is ticking over. Highly embarrasing.   I have now fitted a simple little one way priming bulb just in front of the fuel pump to ensure that I can get fuel into carb both for easier starts after an extended period of non-running and also to recover vapour lock stoppages.  Works every time.    Not an ideal situation but fine for me given that this is just a low mileage hobby plaything - If I was using more regularly then I would look to install higher pressure electric pump with suitable fuel lines to handle extra pressure.

The volatility thing was more or less confirmed for me a few weeks ago.  Have recently fitted a good s/hand fuel tank.  (Rotten original was ditched may years ago in favour of a non original aluminium unit - lower capacity and profile looked non original below rear valance).  During siphoning and refilling activities etc.. noticed how incredibly quickly uncapped containers dropped in level, spillages disappeared etc ...

Hope this is helpful and provides some food for thought .............       
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2014, 05:59:40 PM »

Installing a pressure regulator might help such as a filter king, this will help stop fuel running back to the tank when stood and in any case usually improves running due to smoother supply.
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smithymc
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2014, 06:42:47 PM »

http://www.ricambio.co.uk/69-fiat/55-fiat-124--125/637-fuel/2349-fuel-pump--fiat-124-131-132-strada-ritmo-argenta-lancia-beta-montecarlo-prisma?sort=p.price&order=DESC

Is the one on Ricambio.

Looking through the posts I thing Droptop of this parish has had the same issue and seems to suggest that it works other than producing a more convoluted fuel pipe set up.
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smithymc
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2014, 06:52:49 PM »

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-LANCIA-BETA-MONTECARLO-SCORPION-MECHANICAL-FUEL-PUMP-FIAT-124-131-132-/290875930316?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43b98e76cc

And this is the EBay one.

Mark
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Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2014, 09:23:14 AM »

Mark

Going by the photos the Ricambio one is the same as what Mark W is selling for 38 less, so I'd definitely try the one from him now. I'd say the ebay Montecarlo pump is too tall.

YAJ was miles better at starting after a lay up once I'd fitted the above pump, but you have to look out for air leaks in the system as well. A tiny crack in a filter (no petrol leak) once caused big problems for me too.

Neil
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smithymc
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2014, 10:15:13 PM »

As I read it, Mark hasn't been able to check whether it fits yet.

I would rather not be guinea pig, but I suppose I could get mine off and measure when I get time.

Mark
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2014, 11:31:23 PM »

I honestly suspect it would be more reliable to blank off the pump then fit an electric pump and regulator
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smithymc
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 07:53:14 AM »

I have been thinking about it. Another thread suggests the Huco pump which is a 'suck' type so can be mounted under bonnet. I have a FilterKing somewhere anyway. I suppose the pump can be left on as a blanking device, perhaps removing the actuating rod.
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Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 08:00:28 AM »

I have been thinking about it. Another thread suggests the Huco pump which is a 'suck' type so can be mounted under bonnet. I have a FilterKing somewhere anyway. I suppose the pump can be left on as a blanking device, perhaps removing the actuating rod.

I don't think the blanking plates are too hard to get hold of. With the 'Lime' though I'd be thinking about keeping it as original as possible. I presume the car is off the road at the moment and pumps come up on ebay reasonable regularly and often quite cheap.

If you don't fancy trying out that pump for Mark I'd be tempted to hang on and see if anything turns up?
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Ammy
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 10:12:14 AM »

I fitted an electric pump under the bonnet over 20 years  ago.  When the car has been standing for some time,  it's interesting to hear it "ticking" madly for some seconds before slowing down,   indicating the carb. is full .
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peteracs
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2014, 10:53:50 AM »

I fitted an electric pump under the bonnet over 20 years  ago.  When the car has been standing for some time,  it's interesting to hear it "ticking" madly for some seconds before slowing down,   indicating the carb. is full .

Curious to know if you left the fuel return pipe to the tank and hence does the pump run all the time?

Peter
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Ammy
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2014, 12:37:36 PM »

Return pipe was left connected and pump varies it's operation according to demand
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Ammy
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2014, 01:04:14 PM »

I'm not sure whether this photograph is any help.


* Petrol Pump 002 (800x600).jpg (349.83 KB, 800x600 - viewed 447 times.)
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HFStuart
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2014, 01:47:34 PM »

I have been thinking about it. Another thread suggests the Huco pump which is a 'suck' type so can be mounted under bonnet. I have a FilterKing somewhere anyway. I suppose the pump can be left on as a blanking device, perhaps removing the actuating rod.

The Huco pump doesn't work well with the return line left in place.

On my electric pump setup I've left the old pump in place with no ill effects.
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smithymc
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2014, 07:28:31 PM »

My instinct is, like Neil says, to keep what is an original car as untouched as I can, at least visually, even under the bonnet. Same argument when I changed to contact less ignition - it looks standard under the bonnet unless you are particularly knowledgable.

Will order a mechanical one and see how we go.

I suppose you could argue that a FilterKing is a period mod, but will only fit it if I need to.

Mark
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Ammy
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2014, 10:15:18 PM »

Had I kept my Spyder original,  at 83,  I wouldn't be able to drive it without the power steering ! ! !
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2014, 10:21:03 PM »

I think the trick is sympathetic improvement where it looks original but runs better, imho originality can be taken too far
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