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Author Topic: Sump Removal.  (Read 4581 times)
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gengis
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« on: July 12, 2014, 09:26:10 PM »

Hi Guy's

Can the sump be removed with the engine in situ?  I seem to have low oil pressure, gauge reads just above the first orange section.  I have done an engine oil flush with a Forte product and replenished with fresh oil, I'm thinking that the oil pump strainer may be blocked, as the car lay for years before restoration.

Any thoughts?... (beta i.e.)
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 10:36:28 PM »

Never done it myself but understand it is a bit of a pain. Have you tried putting a proper gauge on the engine? it is possible that your sender unit is faulty (not untypical given the age of these cars now) I'd try that first.
Oil pump or crankshaft wear is fairly  unlikely but the bearings could be past their best, another issue could be dirt in the oil pump relief valve causing it to stick open.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 10:41:26 PM by rossocorsa » Logged
MattNoVAT
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2014, 07:57:58 AM »

Yes, it can but it's not the easiest of tasks.


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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2014, 08:43:57 AM »

It involves undoing the engine mounts and jacking the engine off the subframe. Then you can get at all the bolts and drop the sump. As above I'd check the sender first and wouldn't rule out a faulty gauge either.
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2014, 08:07:42 PM »

What about the warning light, does it also come up?
It seems I am experiencing the same issue. When the engine is cold everything is okay. When I pump the accelerator pedal few times the pressure gauge reaches it's halfway. But when the engine is already warm the gauge drops close to the orange field and at iddle the red light comes up. And lit only at iddle.
The engine was rebuilt, but old oil pump was used (new crank bearings, machined crank shaft etc.) I use Motul classic 15W50 engine oil. New oil pressure sender, however not dedicated exactly for beta, but fiat derived lada. Looks the same. Last season everything was okay. I am also thinking about removing the sump and to have a look at the oil pump strainer and to check the pressure valve. The sump was powdercoated both sides. I am wondering now if the powdercoat is oil resistant and have not come out...
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2014, 08:10:04 PM »

 Sump should be plain unpainted on inner side painted outside only
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 10:59:11 PM by rossocorsa » Logged
gengis
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2014, 08:24:25 PM »

Thanks for the input...I have recently changed the oil pressure switch and oil temp sender, the oil pressure switch behaves as it should, as does the oil temp gauge.  The oil pressure gauge I believe is working correctly.

I will take off the sump this week and inspect...watch this space.
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1983 - Lancia Beta Coupe
1982 - Fiat 124 Spider
2012 - Alfa Romeo Mito
2011 - Fiat Fiorino
2006 - BMW F800st
HFStuart
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2014, 09:32:36 PM »

The gauges on the Beta can (and do) give odd readings. Mine all read slightly low - so the fuel gauge for instance drops below half way after only about 60 miles  - yet it's doing 30mpg and will do 250 miles to a tank.

Before taking the sump off I'd get hold of a capillary pressure gauge and temporarily fit that. At a pinch you could get the oil nice and hot then screw a gauge direct to one of the ports on the oil filter mounting block. See what that gauge reads before wrestling the sump off.

NB If there are no other symptoms and you suspect just general wear something like Penrite 20W60 might be a good option

EDIT: Just noticed this is my 1000th post!!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 09:34:55 PM by HFStuart » Logged
lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 07:11:46 AM »

Sump should be plain unpainted on inner side painted outside only
I thought so, but the guy from the shop asserted me they always do it in this way... when I googled "engine sump" in the graphics I found many sumps that seemed to be painted both sides... However personally I am still not sure if this is ok.
First I'll measure the oil pressure. It should be ca. 4Bar at 3000rpm, and how much at iddle?
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Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
Specialized Epic & Stumpjumper
gengis
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 10:33:27 PM »

Well I went for sump removal tonight, a combination of raising the engine an inch and dropping the sub frame two inches I managed to get the sump out...not too bad really.

The good news is the strainer isn't blocked, in fact the whole bottom end looks very clean, no sludge or carbon deposits.  Now my attention will focus on a valid output from the sender, and a working gauge, which you guy's have already diagnosed.  The main reason I went for sump removal was, when changing the oil temp sender I noticed a build up of sludge on the tip of the sender, also I have piece of mind that the engine is clean.

I will now check how the oil pressure measurement scheme works.  It maybe that I have a similar sludge build up on the pressure sender, It'll probably be the first place to look.

Thanks again.
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1983 - Lancia Beta Coupe
1982 - Fiat 124 Spider
2012 - Alfa Romeo Mito
2011 - Fiat Fiorino
2006 - BMW F800st
rossocorsa
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 10:52:42 PM »

Sump should be plain unpainted on inner side painted outside only
I thought so, but the guy from the shop asserted me they always do it in this way... when I googled "engine sump" in the graphics I found many sumps that seemed to be painted both sides... However personally I am still not sure if this is ok.
First I'll measure the oil pressure. It should be ca. 4Bar at 3000rpm, and how much at iddle?


I had a quick check but the only data I could find states 4.5 to 6 bar at 85 centigrade and 6000rpm.
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2014, 10:56:48 PM »

Well I went for sump removal tonight, a combination of raising the engine an inch and dropping the sub frame two inches I managed to get the sump out...not too bad really.

The good news is the strainer isn't blocked, in fact the whole bottom end looks very clean, no sludge or carbon deposits.  Now my attention will focus on a valid output from the sender, and a working gauge, which you guy's have already diagnosed.  The main reason I went for sump removal was, when changing the oil temp sender I noticed a build up of sludge on the tip of the sender, also I have piece of mind that the engine is clean.

I will now check how the oil pressure measurement scheme works.  It maybe that I have a similar sludge build up on the pressure sender, It'll probably be the first place to look.

Thanks again.

If you have the sump off possibly worth splitting the oil pump base from top section and cleaning the relief valve plus checking the clearance on the gears ( very unlikely to be wrong but not a big job once the sump is off). Don't forget to prime the pump before you restart the engine!
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 02:49:34 PM »

My pressure sender has range 0-8Bar and as far as I know should be 0-6Bar, that is the reason why the needle reaches only its halfway. The question is why the red warning light pops up at iddle?  Roll Eyes
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Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
Specialized Epic & Stumpjumper
rossocorsa
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 10:21:12 PM »

My pressure sender has range 0-8Bar and as far as I know should be 0-6Bar, that is the reason why the needle reaches only its halfway. The question is why the red warning light pops up at iddle?  Roll Eyes

That may or may not make a difference it will depend on the calibration, if the red light comes on at idle firstly check that sensor if not that you could have some wear, blockage or a sticking relief valve or even be using a very modern and a tad took thin oil.
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gengis
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2014, 09:24:46 PM »

Hi Guy's,

Got this problem sorted tonight.  It turned out to be a faulty oil pressure sender, which works on a variable resistance to earth principle...the higher oil pressure, the lower the resistance to earth. 

See below some useful info...

Faulty unit = 750ohms to earth..engine off.
                  400ohms to earth..engine at idle. (instrument reads just above red zone)

Healthy used unit = 350ohms to earth..engine off.
                           150ohms to earth..engine at idle. (instrument reads half scale deflection)

Wiring colour code to oil senders...ie model.

Oil Pressure Switch...Blue.
Oil Temperature Sender...Yellow/Black.
Oil Pressure Sender...Grey/Red.

Thanks...John.
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1983 - Lancia Beta Coupe
1982 - Fiat 124 Spider
2012 - Alfa Romeo Mito
2011 - Fiat Fiorino
2006 - BMW F800st
MattNoVAT
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 11:17:56 PM »

Great info for everyone! 
Thanks Gengis..


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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 07:34:47 AM »

Very useful info John, do you know what is the pressure range of the genuine pressure sender?
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Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
Specialized Epic & Stumpjumper
gengis
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 08:08:24 PM »

The pressure range of the faulty sender was 0 - 8 bar, the same as the used replacement.  Both genuine Lancia senders.

Lukas,  if your still getting a red light flicker at idle, I would change the oil pressure switch, not expensive and easy to replace.
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1983 - Lancia Beta Coupe
1982 - Fiat 124 Spider
2012 - Alfa Romeo Mito
2011 - Fiat Fiorino
2006 - BMW F800st
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