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Author Topic: Fuel Starvation in a 2000ie  (Read 12492 times)
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markwast
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« on: January 25, 2009, 09:28:08 PM »

I have been asked about this but not ever had a injection Beta i could only guess at the reasons.
Firstly it has been suggested that there could be a few reasons why.
 The hose from the tank to the pump has weakened and is collasping as fuel is being sucked along it?

or

 The fuel outlet pipe insde the tank has rusted and so the pump is pumping air as well as fuel.

A new fuel pump has been fitted.

Any ideas on a postcard.
Thanks
Mark
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HFHAWK
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 10:32:19 PM »

Rust in the petrol tank.

The filter is after the pump so the rust particles get to the pump, stay there(magnetic field and all that) then when the car stops you turn off ignition and invistigate. Car normally restarts and the cycle is repeated. A fuel pressure guage by the fuel rail and the bonnet propped open may help to enlighten. There is not much room for a filter before the pump but it is possible. By the time you have put the cleaned petrol tank back in, changed all the braided fuel lines to it and finally got the filler rubber back in place you will fine a place for a second filter.

Another impossible problem is a dodgey rotor arm and or cap on the IE and volumex. It works but only sometimes......The two often happen about the same time.
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hutch6610
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 12:22:08 AM »

The main reason i have found for fuel starvation on IE's or Vx's - had two in the last couple of weeks recently, is usually the screen on the pick up (looks a bit like a lobster pot) in the tank.

That is if a carburettor fuel tank has been bodged on, look under the carpet, remove the plastic cover and you will see two pipes on the sender unit to confirm this.
Recently spent a freezing cold evening with a customer broken down with the above mentioned "beauty" of a bodge by somebody who should have known better - no names mentioned - until the AA recovered us.

Symptoms of fuel starvation are a good idle usually but "kangaroos" and wont pull cutting out as you try to drive.
 
Gum from stale petrol builds up in the fine holes - and i mean fine - on the protective mesh starving the pump of adequate fuel supply and hence a lack of quantity rather than pressure.

Check the pressure with a pressure gauge as HFHAWK has mentioned but it will still have enough pressure to fool you - so long as the ring main fuel regulator functions properly that is!
You need to remove the pipe that feed the injectors (19mm and 17mm unions) and measure the amount of fuel pumped - litres a minute to be 100% sure, to energise the pump just open the flap in the airflow meter and time what comes out into a measuring jug.
Don't ask me how much i cant remember! will look this up if your man wants to investigate further.

Rust particles should not make it past the screen in the tank but do stick to the outside of it stopping up the system  yet further (unless it has been pierced and precautions have not been taken) .
New pumps come with a plastic fine mesh built in to prevent this now.


Only time the pipe collapse is when a poor quality pipe is used that is too flimsy and also has a kink in it so blocking the flow.

Best way to fix is to pierce the screen and fit a fuel filter before the new fuel pump.
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gengis
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 10:24:09 PM »

I also have this issue. 
After fixing a cold start problem, I now find I have a fuel starvation issue on high demand/load conditions.  There has been a new filter and pump fitted and tank flushed by previous owner. (pump noisy)
I have now taken the tank off...fuel cloudy, tank reasonably clean.  But looking at this lobster pot gauze filter, it does look pretty gummed up and when blowing through there is quite a bit of resistance.  I believe this is the reason for the noisy pump...has intermittantly run dry and damaged the bearings.

I'm now going to get the tank cleaned, replace pump and filter.  Question is...how do I get holes in this lobster pot gauze filter?  I must be made of strong stuff...Stainless?  I have tried with a couple of implements, but to no avail..!

Any thoughts?
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gengis
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 10:51:49 PM »

I have now resolved this problem.  Got the tank cleaned, and he also cleaned the lobster pot filter..good job.  Re-installed tank, new pump and filter, car now pulling like a train...yippee.  Only slight issue now is that the new pump seems to be developing a slight noise...will monitor.
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1983 - Lancia Beta Coupe
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2013, 09:39:30 AM »

Have you resolved the problem finally? No I am facing with it. I mounted a new pump and an additional fuel filter, but the pump is really noisy. I blown the fuel pipe to the tank and there is no so high resistance, but when I tried to pour off the fuel flows down a bit slowly...Should the fuel lines be bled?
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millieman
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2013, 12:18:41 AM »

Hi once had an outlet pipe from tank fracture, all ok when tank full,as tank drained through use began to splutter. On inspection with inlet pipe discontected and pointed into milk bottle loads of air bubbles can thorogh with petrol. Hope this helps.
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 07:28:49 AM »

When we look through the fuel level sender openning two pipes can be seen in the swirl pot reservoir. One runs at the bottom and the second (looks thicker) comes from the top then is bent to the bottom. Which of them is a feeding and which a return hose? Where can I find a mentioned mesh?
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 06:19:12 PM »

Sadly my fuel starvation problem seems to be not solved yet :/
What is worth mentioning after a long stay, for example after a night or couple of hours, the car drives smoothly and the pump is almost not hearable, but after about 10kms of not problematic drive the pump becomes noisy, (the sound it emits is variable and seems that changes with an engine load change) and eventually the engine stops. Then the restarted engine stops again just after a while. If the pause is longer the engine runs longer.
The pump was replaced (new Bosch unit) along with new fuel filter and the additional mesh filter before the pump was installed.
I suspect these reasons:
- pump (new but with failure or blocked by small particles not catched by the meshed filter (if it is possible)  
- fuel pressure regulator
- fuel tank filter (no idea how to clean it as the opening is to small to put a hand in.
- fuel tank reservoir fills up slowly

Fuel lines seem to be ok and fuel flows out from a tank freely when the feed hose is disconnected from the fuel primary filter. I got already stuck with it Sad
Any tips how to get it solved are welcome  Cool
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 07:34:26 AM by lukasdeopalenica » Logged

Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 09:23:20 PM »

No one has a single idea?
Today I looked through the hole in the boot while the engine was running, the fuel level was enough, up to the top edge of the swirl pot. Fuel inside the pot really swirl and quite fast. I wonder what is the real purpose of it? To mix fuel or to get an inertia to the mass of the pot portion of fuel?
The engine and the fuel pump worked just perfect  Roll Eyes
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Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
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HFStuart
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 09:34:35 AM »

It's a difficult one but it does sound like vapourisation rather than blockage.

I cured mine by heat wrapping the fuel lines where they we're close to the exhaust. I used a split corrugated tube sleeve for ease of fitting.

I'd suggest doing it both sides of the pump.
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peteracs
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 10:02:58 AM »

Hi

If it is predictable after a run and when hot, then I would suggest the same as Stuart, for some reason you are getting the fuel lines hot which apart from being a pain, I would suggest you should check soon and try some shielding to see what difference it makes.

Peter
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HFStuart
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 03:19:40 PM »

No one has a single idea?
Today I looked through the hole in the boot while the engine was running, the fuel level was enough, up to the top edge of the swirl pot. Fuel inside the pot really swirl and quite fast. I wonder what is the real purpose of it? To mix fuel or to get an inertia to the mass of the pot portion of fuel?
Roll Eyes

Is there a return fuel line on the ie? If so then with the engine at idle most of the fuel is being returned to the tank that would cause the turbulence you saw. I think it's more side effect than for any purpose.
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 10:07:19 PM »

Thanks guys very much
Yes, there is a return pipe and it is inserted into the surge tank. It can be just a side effect as you sugest, but looks really professional and purposeful Smiley
The vapourisation effect sound reasonable so I will have a look tomorrow closer at the lines, however there is an aluminium thermal shield at the first silencer (in the pump vicinity). If I am correct in thinking as the fuel pump starts to be noisy prior to the engine stop the fuel gets vapoured before the pump.
I am going to check also the surge tank if it does not get dry. When the engine stops as usual I will check the fuel level through the opening in the boot. Is the mentioned pot fed only through the return pipe, or should it also be connected with the main tank?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 10:24:20 PM by lukasdeopalenica » Logged

Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2013, 07:52:55 AM »

The vapour theory is refuted eventually. I shielded all the sensitive fuel elements with a thick layer of rock wool with aluminium foil bonded, and there was no change. The engine started as always perfectly with the pump working just noiseless, then after a couple of kilometers, probably at full temperature, the pump begined to be hearable, then got noiser and eventually the engine stopped. After a few minutes pause the engine worked again but the pump was audible. I also check the fuel level in the swirl pot and was almost at its top edge. What I realised removing a fuel lever sender was created a quite big underpressure inside the tank. I checked the breather pipe but seems to be ok.
I am starting to feel powerless. I am going to drive this car for my wedding next month but definitelly not if it is not reliable Sad
So pump, pressure regulator, tank or collapsing rubber hose... Any suggestions? please help Smiley
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Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
Specialized Epic & Stumpjumper
peteracs
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2013, 01:04:01 PM »

Hi

When. You say under pressure, do you mean that there was a sudden rush in of air to the tank?

If this is the case, does leaving the filler cap loose help matters.

I cannot see having a pressure differential in the tank being normal.

Peter
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2013, 02:14:07 PM »

Yes Peter, it was. Almost vacuum  Roll Eyes the top wall of the tank was depressed. When I pressurized it removing the sender unit it came to the normal position. I am wondering why this happens as the breathing pipe is not blocked.  I will check it out today along with checking a water temperature sensor, its wiring etc. There is a small chance that the connectors of the temperature sender and a temperature switch are transposed :/ obviously it does not have any regard with vacuum in the tank Wink
There are two facts for sure:
1. the engine stops when gets hot
2. the fuel pump starts working noisy prior to the engine stop
they can be linked but of course may not
 Huh?
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Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
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HFStuart
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2013, 07:09:51 PM »

OK so take it one problem at a time.

There should not be a vacuum or low pressure in the tank. As suggested try it with the fuel cap off and see if that makes a difference.
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lukasdeopalenica
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2013, 08:34:54 PM »

Some update. What is strange that the underpressure inside the tank creates even when the engine is not working, i.e overnight  Shocked But this has no impact on the said fuel starvation as when I removed the filler cap the issue did not disappeared, unfortunately.
I also checked the temperature sensor and wiring harnesses. Everything is just okay with it. I check then the fuel pump efficiency. It also is okay - the pump pumps over 2liter/minute. Another test: I switch the ignition to on and opened the flap inside the AFM to start the pump. I let to pump over 20minutes, but with the engine stopped. The pump worked silent with no problems. Then I took a trip. Unfortunatelly the problem started again in the same way as always. Definitelly the temperature must have its role in the issue however. 
Huh?
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Lancia Beta HPE 2000i.e. '82 rosso corsa
SAAB 900i 16V Aero, '93 solid black
Subaru Outback 3.0R
Honda CB125 K6 '76 electric blue
Specialized Epic & Stumpjumper
peteracs
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2013, 09:58:01 PM »

Ok, you need to establish how this low pressure is being generated and stored. The tank should not allow this. You say the breather pipe is ok, how are you establishing this?

Can you run the car with the sender unit slightly undone, so allowing it not to be a sealed unit?

Does this reduce the pump noise etc?

Next is to establish why the pressure differential happens, you need to check all the openings in the tank, how you do this I am unsure how the VX tank works, maybe someone else here could suggest a way?

Peter
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