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Author Topic: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?  (Read 48193 times)
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2012, 11:44:47 PM »

Hi Andrew,

That looks absolutely perfect for my purposes. I'll PM you with my address, if you're prepared to send it to me. I tried ringing the firm today, but as expected they're on holiday. To be honest I doubt if things will really get back to normal until the 2nd week of January. I sent them some webmail indicating my interest so as soon as they reply I'll get on the case.

What those pictures do show is just how many variants there were. I have the carbed model, which is the most 'bare bones' of the lot, then there's your VX version, then there's the i.e. version with bosses welded in for sensors. By the time we've finished the poor thing will look like a bloody porcupine...

I'm trying not to think about the cost right now...
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2012, 11:27:08 AM »

as i understand it the pipe to the thermostat needs removing if you go in head stat that would simplify any production quite a lot! Also GC advocates drilling a bleed hole in the stat to avoid air locks etc this would mean in practice that the stat would run even cooler. I know from peoples experience of fitting in line stats to Rover 75/MG ZT diesels (where the idea was to get the engine as hot and efficient as possible) that fitting a stat with a bleed hole significantly lowered the running temperature as flow is never really fully cut off).
Still not really sure if this is a good idea for road use though as the standard stat appears designed to improve warm up etc. but of course the standard stats may become unobtainable in the future in which case it may well be the only way.
I guess the additional bosses from the ie model may well prove useful if anyone wants to add a more accurate temperature guage to an earlier car

so my thoughts are overall that best option would be top pipe with inline stat mod (so pipe to stat deleted at the other end) and extra bosses for the ie model (perhaps with removable blanks fitted.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 01:50:06 PM by rossocorsa » Logged
mangocrazy
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2012, 10:38:44 PM »

I agree that we need to remove the feed to the outboard stat; I think that will simplify matters quite a bit. However there are a couple of things I'm not too sure about. With relation to the i.e. top rail, does anyone have a picture of one or better yet, a rusted out one that we could use as a template? I will need to know where on the rail the sensor bosses are supposed to go.

With respect to the VX top rail, I've drawn on Andrew's first pic (see below):



I presume that the #1 outlet goes to the cylinder head in the region of cylinder #4. Do all variants of Beta heads have a connection/spigot that this top rail outlet can connect to? Also, I presume that outlet #2 goes to the heater matrix. What changes would be needed to carb or i.e. plumbing to make use of this outlet?

I'm interested in trying to provide either a 'one size fits all', or preferably a 'best of breed' item here, so it's important to understand the differences between models/variants amd decide which options are best.
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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 10:41:58 AM »

Graham

All non IE Beta Variants can use the VX top rail and it is a great reliability mod as it protects the head gasket. I think you build this VX version in stainless with an option to delete the small external stat feed. Most road cars do not need the 74 degree stat and people like car builder solutions offer alternative external stats that might be used. However if you want to build a fast road version you delete the external stat small pipe and use an 82 degree in head stat which is GC's winter recommendation. I used this temp all year in my first fast road twin carb Montecarlo which had 160BHP and I had a small bypass hole in the stat 1.5 mm from memory.

Too cold on a road car can soot the plugs and increase engine load.
 
To simplify making this you just have this sample remade and with the inlet from the head wider so it sits over an in head stat. BTW have you noticed the top rail is a smaller diameter than the lower water rail?

Eric   
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Neil-yaj396
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« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 10:47:52 AM »

It's great that the Forum gets things like this going. Is a generic part going to be practical though? Won't it end up being a bit of a hedgehog with four or five take offs most of which will be blanked off on a standard carbed car (which most of us have)? Ditching the in-line thermostat all together as mentioned above would also be a turn off for anyone wanting to maintain originality and cut down potential orders.

Overall this is a great idea but I'm not convinced it's doable as a single part and might be best split between series 3 (sic) and pre series 3 if that still leaves it viable?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 10:49:37 AM by Neil-yaj396 » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2012, 10:56:41 AM »

Neil

A fair point on originality which is why having the small stat pipe in place that can be deleted works as it keeps the OE stat. The head heater connection mod as shown on the VX rail is incredibly easy and valuable to ALL Series (IE still need extra bits) as it reduces head gasket failure at Number 4 through limited cooling in summer at that end of the head unless the heater is on. I know all beta owners like to be warm but few run the heater all summer!!

With this built you end up with a VX/Carb top rail (option delete small stat pipe and an IE top rail if there is demand for it.

Eric
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« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2012, 01:47:19 PM »

I fitted a VX top rail to my 1978 spyder only two days ago and I'm now going to hunt for a back rail as mine was split when I got the car and I had it TIG welded but the hose ends are corroded and I've never been entirely confident of it.
The VX rail was in pristine condition and when I removed my old rail, the hose ends had corroded quite a lot in the couple of years since I treated them when recomissioning the car.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2012, 12:46:43 PM »

I agree with Eric's summary of what we should be asking for/offering:

1. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat).
2. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat and deleted pipe to external stat.
3. i.e.-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat). ** N.B - I will need an example of this variant to show the fabricators. **

All above to be fabricated in 316 stainless.

Is there general agreement on this?

At some point we will need to ask for an indication of demand, although I think it would be best to get some kind of guide price before we do that.

I have to say I'm blithely unaware of a bottom or back water rail - are these also made in mild steel and should we be looking at re-making this in stainless as well? And are there multiple variants of this?
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
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2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2012, 03:54:07 PM »

I agree with Eric's summary of what we should be asking for/offering:

1. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat).
2. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat and deleted pipe to external stat.
3. i.e.-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat). ** N.B - I will need an example of this variant to show the fabricators. **

All above to be fabricated in 316 stainless.

Is there general agreement on this?

At some point we will need to ask for an indication of demand, although I think it would be best to get some kind of guide price before we do that.

I have to say I'm blithely unaware of a bottom or back water rail - are these also made in mild steel and should we be looking at re-making this in stainless as well? And are there multiple variants of this?
Definitely need to look at the lower pipe too,  not sure if there are any variations on these or not if I get time I will investigate the microfiche and parts books.  I have been pondering the stat  situation maybe it is possible to remove the internals from the normal stat body in which case the extra pipe could be retained and it would look original,  this might make a better option than making with or without as it will be best to keep it simple? So anyone know if that is possible?  Secondly it may be wise to look at two finishes one plain stainless for those who want to paint or powder coat for originality and polished for those who want to look flash? It may be a case of asking what the majority prefer (I suspect powder coated would be most popular)
I think volumes will be quite low many people will choose to soldier on with their existing pipes particularly given that the cars are not worth a lot essentially budget classics.  For that reason the number of variations does need to be kept low if it's to make sense

Sent from my MOMO11 bird using Tapatalk 2
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2012, 04:09:00 PM »

To be honest, if people want to polish or powder coat the parts, then I think that is down to them. I'd want to keep the number of variants down to a realistic minimum. I quite like the idea of removing the guts from the standard stat - that way originality is preserved and no extra plumbing changes are required.

But we definitely need to look at the bottom rail as well, by the sound of it.
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« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2012, 04:58:56 PM »

...we definitely need to look at the bottom rail as well, by the sound of it.

I have one of these too, from my spare VX engine. You want me to send it to you?

Andrew.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2012, 05:27:52 PM »

Andrew, you're a star. yes please...
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« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2012, 06:33:07 PM »

Ok. This one is still on my spare engine- it looks at a glance to be in good shape so I'll probably want this one back when you've finished with it. I have no idea if the VX bottom rail is different from the other variants- anyone know?
I'll remove it and send it up with the top rail during this next week.
Hope I'm in for a nice discount when you've got 'em done...  Wink Grin ...and hoping that I can even afford the discounted price... Shocked Grin

Here's to a rustfree future for the Beta... cooling system at least...  Cheesy

Andrew.
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« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2012, 08:38:46 PM »

I agree with Eric's summary of what we should be asking for/offering:

1. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat).
2. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat and deleted pipe to external stat.
3. i.e.-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat). ** N.B - I will need an example of this variant to show the fabricators. **

All above to be fabricated in 316 stainless.

Is there general agreement on this?

At some point we will need to ask for an indication of demand, although I think it would be best to get some kind of guide price before we do that.

I have to say I'm blithely unaware of a bottom or back water rail - are these also made in mild steel and should we be looking at re-making this in stainless as well? And are there multiple variants of this?

Re. the rear coolant rail.
Maybe I don't have the correct description/name but it's the pipe that runs from the water pump along the back (side) of the block between the engine and bulkhead under the exhaust manifold and connects the heater inlet hose and the radaitor bottom hose.
Attached is a pic of an old one I have


* beta rear water rail 001.JPG (473.07 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 597 times.)
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2013, 12:08:49 AM »

Cheers, I'll compare that to the item that spud (Andrew) is sending me at present. More good news - I've just discovered that I actually have an i.e. top water rail on the spare i.e. engine I bought a year or so ago that is languishing in my lockup garage. I didn't have time to remove it today, but should be able to retrieve it next weekend. We should then have a full set; carb, VX and i.e.  - yay!
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
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« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2013, 04:54:03 PM »

I spoke to the guy at Direct Fabs today (Mark Penrose) and he said that making and bending the flange would be no problem, and neither would bending the tube. He did question why we needed to use 316 stainless, as his view was that 304 would last 30 years at least. I said that these cars are nearly all at least 30 years old, so long-term viability was an issue. 304 would be cheaper, obviously. So far, so good.

However the part of the fabrication that does give Mark a problem is the bead forming on all the tube ends that have a rubber hose attached. Running without a bead is a complete no-no (the hose just blows off), and he is not set up to roll beads on tubing; it has to be farmed out. The problem is in the cost of setting up a bead roller for low-volume production (which this is). There are also multiple beads on different sizes of tubing required, and the beads need to be rolled before the tube is welded or formed.

So any suggestions as to how this problem might be overcome? For very low volume production it might be feasible to run a bead of weld round the end of the pipe, but that would be very labour-intensive. The obvious answer would be to find a supplier that can do the tube beading, welding, bending, flange cutting and forming all in house - but I don't know of any such supplier.

Time to put your lateral thinking caps on, chaps...
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« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2013, 05:23:11 PM »

GB Engineering in Odiham, Hants can do all that including the bead.

Bend, weld, put on the beads etc the whole shooting match.

I watched them put the bead onto about 20 cooling pipes for some model of Ferrari only last week.
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« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 12:28:29 AM »

Hi Matt,

That sounds like a better solution. As soon as you start farming work out the price goes up exponentially. Do you have a contact name/number/email address for the firm or alternatively would you  be prepared to make an initial advance to them? I fully understand if you can't for whatever reason.

Mark did say he'd have a think and see if he can come up with a solution, but I think getting the whole thing done under one roof is the way to go.
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« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 11:02:59 AM »

I will be there (GB Engineering) on Friday so I will speak with Graham the owner about the project. 

I've known Graham for years as he did a lot of the original fabrication on the Hawk Startos, he still does a large amount of work for numerous Hawk Stratos owner as well as original AC Cobra, GT40's and all sorts of vintage and italian exotica.  He's done all my fabrication for me for both my Hawks and my Betas over the past 15 years.  He's an old school engineer who does things properly!

Due to my current circumstance I will not have the time to manage / oversee the project but I will discuss with him tomorrow and then put you two in contact.  Is it OK if I pass him your mobile & email details (please PM them to me to make sure I have current/correct details)

Cheers 
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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2013, 03:57:57 PM »

Just to keep everybody up to date - the Sheffield fabricator hasn't got back to me, so I'm assuming that avenue is effectively closed. However I've been in touch with Matt's man in Hampshire, Graham Bates and he seems to think it's all perfectly doable, which is very encouraging.

Andrew (spud) has very kindly sent me a VX top rail and bottom rail (which I believe to be common across all variants), and I've found an i.e. rail in my random collection of parts, so these three pieces of rusty metal will be heading off to GB Engineering some time next week. I've requested that the bore of the main flange be increased from 30mm to 40mm, which will comfortably accomodate an in-head thermostat and the 3mm bleed hole that Guy Croft recommends.

Graham reckons that the best way to proceed will be to have a base spec top rail, with extra cost options available to suit. Base spec will be VX top rail with the secondary pipe deleted (in other words, using in-head stat and remove external stat from plumbing entirely). For those who wish to keep the external stat (whether for appearance or by preference), the secondary outlet will be an option, as will the sensor bosses and bracket for the i.e. variant.

I'm assuming that everyone will require the extra VX inlet/outlet on the top rail? Is there any requirement for the original carbed variant with the unmolested top rail? I can't see the point myself, but if needed it should be the cheapest of the lot. Anyway, once I get an indication of a likely price, I'll let you know.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
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