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Author Topic: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?  (Read 46943 times)
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mangocrazy
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« on: December 26, 2012, 02:56:27 PM »

Hi all,

I'm seriously toying with the idea of getting the Beta top water rail re-manufactured, as I've been told of a local engineering firm that specialise in just this kind of thing. It won't be an exact copy of the original - rather I would want to incorporate as many modifications/improvements in the design as possible. Material would be stainless steel throughout, probably 316/A4 although 304/A2 would probably be adequate, unless anyone can suggest better. It would be designed to work with an 'in-head' thermostat rather than the outboard one, so will not have the extra small outlet welded onto the main rail.

My main concern is - what model of original part should I base it on? I have a spare top rail from a carbed model, but I believe the VX top rail was further modified. Does anyone have comparative photos of these parts? Also, which is the best design to use as a template, or is it likely we will need two variants? I would want to avoid this if at all possible, as it will only add to the overall cost.

As of now I have no idea of cost, or even if this company would be prepared to take on the work, but I'll be contacting them early in the New Year to find out if the idea has legs or not. But before I approach them, I want to have most (if not all) of the variables sorted. Any comments or suggestions very welcome.

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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
rossocorsa
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2012, 05:59:56 PM »

I think spec should be as per volumex with the extra pressure reducing by pass to protect the head gasket
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thecolonel
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2012, 09:34:21 PM »

I would suggest using one from a injection engine as these
have additional sensors, which could have blanking plugs
installed for carb cars.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 09:46:49 PM »

Can of worms, duly opened...  Grin

Could anyone post up pictures of a VX top rail and an i.e. top rail for reference (I already have the carb version to hand). Pardon my ignorance, but does the i.e. version also have the extra take-off that the VX rail has?

Cheers.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
rossocorsa
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 10:21:32 PM »

That's a question that I don't know the answer to either! Will try to check the microfiche
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MattNoVAT
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 10:24:21 PM »

I thought only late VX models had the extra outlet by No.4 cylinder.
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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
rossocorsa
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 11:18:58 PM »

Not sure but I think all vx had it not sure about ie
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MattNoVAT
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2012, 12:11:57 AM »

I have definitely seen VXs without the extra outlet
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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
MattNoVAT
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 11:58:37 AM »

I could get these re-made but the ideal solution would be to have a number of old ones, these would have the base cut off and new stainless steel pipes bent to shape and welded to the original base.

If they were remade from scratch then they get more expensive to remake as the base that bolts onto the head would make the job bigger.

I'll buy myself a lathe one of these days and make stuff like this myself.
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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
rossocorsa
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2012, 12:00:38 PM »

My VX was built in May 1983 and has the modified pipe.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bd32v1x1l5bfxl/83waterpumpandlines.JPG

there doesn't seem to be a vx specific option (it would be annotated 0930)? Having said that the illustration doesn't show the extra outlets but these pictures on microfiche are not always accurate maybe they were all the same on FL2 cars? 0085 refers to injection so that is the version with extra holes for the sensors. The other variation is for Swiss market (possibly carb 2000 not sure) this has a part modification C7688/D7688 this was a modification for swiss cars for model year 83 but it doesn't clarify what/why. I checked on Trevi as well and same part numbers appear

I checked series 2 FL microfiche as well and the top pipe is 82285678  same as listed for later cars!

possibly I need to fish around the microfiche a bit more as some variations show on separate pages, haven't really any more time to waste today might look later.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 02:09:43 PM by rossocorsa » Logged
rossocorsa
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 12:05:54 PM »

I could get these re-made but the ideal solution would be to have a number of old ones, these would have the base cut off and new stainless steel pipes bent to shape and welded to the original base.

If they were remade from scratch then they get more expensive to remake as the base that bolts onto the head would make the job bigger.

I'll buy myself a lathe one of these days and make stuff like this myself.

Doesn't the base need modifying anyway if using an in head stat? I think all new would be more elegant it kind of depends how many could be sold as to viability. Ideally a rusted out VX pipe is needed to use as a pattern plus a further one off an ie so as to arrive at the hybrid one size fits all design not easy to find even rusted out these days!!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 02:08:51 PM by rossocorsa » Logged
HFStuart
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 01:08:45 PM »

yes it does need modyfying to suit a head stat.

While I'm on I'd advocate using 316 - 304 can and will corrode with heat and salts.
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 06:03:58 PM »

Thanks for all the comments - I'll speak to the company in the New Year when they're back from the break. I agree that 316 would be the best material - I doubt that the price differential on material over 304 would be much, it's the fabrication that will cost the money. As others have said, re-manufacturing the part gives us the chance to improve on the original in a number of areas; designing it to work with a thermostat, adding in the bosses for sensors, and adding the extra VX-style takeoff.

And while stainless can be welded to mild steel with the correct wire/filler rod, it would look much better if properly TIG welded up in all stainless. Properly polished, it would add a bit of bling to the under-bonnet area, as well...   Grin
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
rossocorsa
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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 06:09:20 PM »

Guy croft modifies the rails for in head stats so he would be able to advise the modification required, I do wonder though if the standard stat may be better for normal driving?
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2012, 06:17:23 PM »

You can get a Unipart replacement stat in the same temperature range as the original - it's just that a lot of people use the 'hot climate' option with the modified top rail. The part numbers are GTS 102 for hot climate and GTS 104 for temperate climate, if memory serves me correctly.
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1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
rossocorsa
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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 06:26:57 PM »

yes I get the idea just thinking that for normal road use the hotter stat is probably fine plus, if I remember correctly, the original stat has some kind of blending function to assist warm up?  However if the mod can be done such that the in head stat can be left out if preferred that would make sense. The hot climate stat is set to 74 degees which seems terribly cold to me for a road car?
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mangocrazy
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 06:40:25 PM »

As I see it, the flange on the water rail that fits into the cylinder head just needs to be of a suitable size for an in-head stat to be fitted if required. If it's not required, it could be omitted with absolutely no ill effects. I think the flange only needs relieving by a few mm to accept the stat, so not fitting a stat really shouldn't be a problem.

74C seems a bit cool to me, as well, but GC is adamant that it's the way to go. I think the stat closes at 74C, and opens again at 82C, so the actual water temp will always be somewhere between those two values.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 06:42:19 PM by mangocrazy » Logged

1980 Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (S2FL)
2002 VW Transporter T4
2017 KTM Duke 690R
2008 Aprilia SL1000 Falco
1992 Ducati 888 SP3
1988 Honda VFR750F
1980 Yamaha RD350LC
HFStuart
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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 08:04:49 PM »

To be fair to Guy it might be the way to go for a race engine  - but that doesn't make it ideal for a road engine. With the standard carb I've always found my Betas to have quite a flat spot until they were fully hot at about 85 deg.
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rossocorsa
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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 08:50:38 PM »

I think the standard stat starts to open at about 80 degrees and isn't fully open until about 95
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spud
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2012, 08:00:57 PM »

This is from a VX. I assume it to be correct- it was fitted to my HPE VX 1984 model. It is perforated here and there so only usable as a pattern to take dimensions from really- I am happy to send it to you Mangocrazy if you want to use it in this way. I think it's a great idea to have it re-made, especially in stainless. I'm a little terrified at the thought of the end product purchase price though...

Andrew.


* top water rail 001.jpg (204.56 KB, 640x480 - viewed 509 times.)

* top water rail 002.jpg (190.34 KB, 640x480 - viewed 503 times.)

* top water rail 003.jpg (177.64 KB, 640x480 - viewed 533 times.)
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