From: Lanciamad (Original Message) Sent: 02/12/2008
After a successful track day in the HPE on saturday. By the end of the day it had became clear to me that there is still a lot of room for improvement and development. http://www.edpphoto.com/nspcctdred.HTML/index.htm
a few pics of the day, camp corner catching me, the car and the other 5 that spun within the 1st 20 mins of the day on a cold foggy castle combe.
I apologise now for bringing the subject of wheels up again, but would like peoples opinion on whether to go wider, with something like a 16v integrale wheel all around, i believe just requiring spacers fitted to the rears to clear the strut, or stick with the standard beta alloy (which i do like) and fit a decent tyre like toyo r888's, which i believe are as close as you can get to slicks while still being legal? (No roll cage fitted, so standard tyres to be used for tracking)
(I'm fully aware that the shocks to match will greatly improve the car)
On the brakes front, sticking with the standard set-up, what are peoples thoughts and experiences with drilled/grooved discs and pads to match? Is there a vast improvement or not worth the money?
From: spyder-grale Sent: 02/12/2008
Track days will always show up any weakness in the brake/tyre/suspension areas.
With regards to your question about the brakes, I fitted a set of Tarox drilled & grooved front disks (with the accomopanying fast "road" pads) to a friends VX Coupe & he says that they're a lot better than standard, although after a few laps on a track, they'll probably start to fade a bit, but not as much as standard. Don't forget to also fit braided steel hoses as these will stop the rubber hoses from flexing, plus use some REALLY good brake fluid such as Castrol SRF. It's not cheap, but has a higher boiling point.
My 1st track day in the Integrale ended at lunch time after I'd boiled the fluid (the rear pads were on fire). I bled the system but it was still no good, as the rubber hoses were bellowing out, hence I had a VERY long brake pedal. Ideally you'd want to go up to a 15" or even a 16" rim so as to get some after market brake calipers and bigger disks, but now you're talking around £1,000 for the brakes alone (disks/calipers/pads/bells/mounting brackets/hoses)!
For road use, I use Fereodo's DS2500 pads in the Integrale, but for a track day I use Pagid Blue's as they're a harder pad & can withstand the abuse of hard, late braking (I'm using Grp A, AP 4 pot calipers & 315mm disks). If you can source a vented disk the same diameter as a Beta's along with the calipers (making sure that they'd fit under the rim) then that would save some £££'s. At the end of the day, how many track days will you be doing?
From: Omicron Sent: 03/12/2008
Braided Hoses, good brake fluid (Dot 5.1 or Castrol Super Response Fluid) and good pads should make a big difference. There are dedicated racing brake fluids which have higher boiling points, but when it becomes contaminated with moisture the boiling point is no better than DoT 3, and isn't really suitable for road cars, but a race car may have a fluid change every couple of races and the milage it accumulates isn't high. We normally use Mintex compounds on brake pads. Coupled with good tyres and suspension of course...
If this isn't sufficient, then you could upgrade to a ventilated disc setup with bigger calipers but the danger of swapping calipers around is that you can upset the brake bias, or even exceed the capabilities of the master cylinder. It always amazes me that people make what are actually huge assumptions with regards brakes without sitting down and doing some maths first! You may need to have make some mounting brackets which will obviously have to be strong enough to cater for the massive forces involved.
Another option would be to consider professional race tuiition - this 'mod' is a one off that you take from car to car. Learning to use the brakes properly could help preserve them.
From: Lanciamad Sent: 03/12/2008
Using standard brakes, while preserving them for the day was definately challenging, although they felt as good as they could have, throughout the whole day and the journey home. Only locked a front wheel once, so wasn't like i was thrashing the brake pedal at every opportunity, and combe's deffinately a circuit you need your brakes for.
Although, bigger brakes and calipers are tempting, i'm quite happy to stick with the standard set-up for another year at least, i find there not to shabby for a road car of its age!
What i'm thinking of doing, is braided hoses to discard brake hose expansion (bellowing), as you say, a good brake fluid to take higher temperatures, some drilled/grooved discs definately on the fronts and decent pads to match. Then i think that'll keep my mind at rest for a year on that subject.
With regard to wheels/tyres, from what i've been told the toyo r888's are a fantastic tyre for value that lasts longer than they look. So, i think i'll stick with the standard beta alloy. I have 185/65/14 on the car at the moment as road tyres. I believe, the toyo's are 185/60/14, so should go on nicely?
Any of those options i should stay away from? Then there's just the issue of some decent shocks, and onto the topic of more grunt.
From: Omicron Sent: 04/12/2008
I've not tried Toyo R888's personally, but I've heard a lot of good things about them.
From: 206doorman Sent: 05/12/2008
I can recommend the Toyo brand. I had at least 2 sets on my 97 Uno Turbo when I was in South Africa. I do not recall the type, but size was 175/60/13 I think.
As it happens, Toyo was the only maker who could actually supply the correct size for this car...at a reasonable price.....so I had little choice. That aside, they performed well wet and dry.