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Author Topic: HPE Not starting - need advice / help  (Read 3372 times)
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alexmaccoll
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« on: July 30, 2012, 02:00:23 PM »

Hi guys!

A while ago I had a run in with the French police who broke my Lancia (they towed it and broke the Gearbox). So I replaced the engine and box and it's now not working. After spending countless hours on it I've got sparks, fuel going in, working dizzy / HT, new spark plugs and I've checked the timing to the best of my ability (interpreting the haynes manual was not easy).

The timing belt is tight, too, which we initially thought was the problem.

So, we've got everything except a bang! It might be compression that's causing it, but if it is, I've no idea how to solve it. In all honesty I'm a bit out of my depth even before getting to this point. But I need this car running! Any suggestions / help / professional expertise is welcome. The car is in Watlington, if you could come and help you would be remunerated for your time.

Pretty please help me!
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MattNoVAT
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 02:37:55 PM »

Hi Alex,

Was the new engine definately running prior to being transplanted into your HPE?

Is it Carb or Fuel Injection?

When it turns over, is there any knocking noises at all?

Is the earth strap connected & well grounded?

Has the dizzy been removed at any point? not just the cap but the whole thing (has it been put back in 180 degrees out?)


Just things to start off with......


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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
chrisworwood
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 10:20:13 PM »

Hi,

I've been helping Alex get this car sorted and I was hoping for a good weekend.  But alas it was not to be.  So to answer some questions:

1. Was the new engine definately running prior to being transplanted into your HPE?  - As far as we know, yes.  Although the head that came with the engine in not being used at the moment.

2. Is it Carb or Fuel Injection? Carb - From a previously working engine.  Changed the carb with one from a running car too just in case.  The Manifold is damp with petrol so I'm sure the carb is working.

3. When it turns over, is there any knocking noises at all? - No, it sounds smooth.

4. Is the earth strap connected & well grounded? Yes, everything is grounded as it should be.  We have Spark, fuel, etc.  Have tested the fuel pump, even used an electric pump just in case.

5. Has the dizzy been removed at any point? not just the cap but the whole thing (has it been put back in 180 degrees out?)
The Dizzi has been removed and replaced.  Should not be 180 degrees out, however when the timing has been set it is making contact with No1.  What are the correct timing positions?  The Crank pulley mark sets the engine at just off No1 TDC, on a downward stroke.  Have set the two cam pulley's in the correct positions, both holes lining up with the marker.   This could prove to be the problem as I read on a post in the forum that it fires on 4 at TDC and not 1, however that is talking about the 2000, so I would like confirmation on this.  Do you have any pictures of the timing settings on the 1600?

I'm hoping this is a simple problem of the timing being off and not a compression issue and requiring the head change, but I will test the compression on Thursday evening when I'm next at the workshop.  Do you know what the values for the compression should be?

Thanks for the info so far.
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MattNoVAT
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 09:57:20 AM »

To me, this sounds like the timing is out.

I'd set the static timing from scratch and then double check the dizzy.

I had a similar issue once with my 1600 and it was because the dizzy had been incorrectly fitted.  (180 degrees out) So to test that theory we rotated the leads and then we got spluttering signs and eventually it started.
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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
Thotos
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 12:02:01 PM »

I too had the dizzy out by 180 degrees once  Embarrassed Backfired and my ITG filter caught fire!  Shocked Cry
With the timing marks lined up, the rotor arm in the distributor should be pointing to number 4 spark plug lead.
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Theo Kyriacou
HFStuart
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 07:43:33 PM »

It does sound like timing. I'd agree with Theo if you've got it 180 deg out it can spit back through the carb quite violently.

If push comes to shove I could pop over to have a butchers - I'm in Bury so not a million miles away.

BTW is it points or electronic ignition?

Stuart
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rachaeljf
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 08:40:09 PM »

I can vouch for the engine! It was a perfect runner before I whipped it out. As Thotos says, all TC engines are timed on No. 4 cylinder firing. Cylinder No. 1 should never be mentioned in Fiat-Lancia circles.

I am oop noorth this weekend or I could have come down for a look, but it sounds like you just have the timing 180 degrees out so it should be easy to sort.

I was going to call in to HW on the way down to Henley last month but on the day I had to go to work first and I dare not send Steve into the garage on his own to fetch anything. Very sorry I haven't posted them yet, keep being distracted Sad

Cheers R
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chrisworwood
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 09:57:13 AM »

Thanks for all the help, suggestions and advice.

I will be down at the car on Thursday evening and rest the Dizzy and the timing.  As you have all said, it is probably as simple as the dizzy being out of alignment.  It has everything else!

I will let you know what happens.

Cheers
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chrisworwood
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 01:03:20 PM »

A quick up date from the work on Thursday:

In a Word -> Nothing!  Not a god damn thing! 

Set the timing up as best I can - Don't have the timing tool, but set-up as per manual.  Also set the Dizzy to No. 4.  Still nothing.

Tried a compression test.  Not sure if the tool is faulty, but nothing was registered.  So will get a new compression tester and have another go this weekend.  If there is no compression, then it's off with it's Head and replace with the other head we have - the one that came with the engine. 

Can someone PLEASE send me a Picture of the TDC timing settings on the Crank Pully, Cam Shafts and the Dizzy - both with the cap in place and with it Open.  I want to get this timing thing 100% accurate.

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MattNoVAT
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 08:29:56 PM »

Just a though - how old is the fuel thats in the tank?

Is it fresh or old stale stuff?
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1981 2000 Coupe S2/FL
1976 1600 Coupe S1

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.
Neil-yaj396
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1979 1300 Coupe 1983 2000ie Coupe


« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 08:33:47 PM »

Matt has a point. Once wasted hours on a old MG which started instantly after I swapped the fuel
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alexmaccoll
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2012, 09:13:36 AM »

Hi Guys

Thanks for your help thus far. Unfortunately it looks like it isn't going to make the rally.

To answer your questions:

The fuel is new - it was put in about a week ago

There does appear to be compression of some description, as if you put your hand over the exhaust you can feel it pushing out air. It just will not ignite.

Alex
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peteracs
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2012, 11:32:38 AM »

Hi

If you are in doubt, I would suggest a proper compression tester as you are bound to get some back pressure, but you do need to know how much at that critical time.

Curious why you canged the head in the first place if it was running ok?

Peter
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