Lancia Beta Forum

My Beta has clocked nearly 1k miles now since it's new head gasket and cooling upgrade. The head was skimmed and the valves reseated. An in-head thermostat was added, plus Revotec elec fan. Under load and fast uphill climbs I see that the temp gauge creeps up and touches the red section. This worries me, though I appreciate the dash gauge lacks accuracy. All I want is for the needle to sit obediently and centrally in the white section. Could this be a result of modern fuels? Type of coolant product? Would a larger core rad help? I noticed that Clive Moss fitted a bigger than standard rad in his resto Coupe - Practical Classics, Spring 2021 - always grateful to hear any thoughts... Jono

The gauge isn't super accurate but it shouldn't move other than when stationary when it should go up until the fan kicks in.

If you're not loosing coolant then either you don't have enough flow or the rad isn't doing it's job. A standard rad in good nick should be well up to the job. Was it flushed through and checked? The water pump might also be a suspect.

I agree with Stuart even though the OE Gauge is slow and inaccurate it should not be moving into the red section. Your fan should have switched in and pulled the temp back. Do you have an airlock?

Eric

Just been out in the car. I let it stand to warm up. Noticed wafts of steam coming off the back of the head - the exhaust manifold side - as the engine increased temp the steam ceased. I drove a mile, parked up and waited for fan to cut in. Needle moving distinctly towards red. Whilst back on the road the fan, I realise, is never cutting off, runs permanently. Needle is certainly not sitting where it should, even without load now. Definitely not right. Rad could be suspect, was told it was 'good' second hand. Air-lock is possible, the system was flushed through at the time of the head works. Tomorrow will talk to my technician who worked on my Beta last year. Thanks for your thoughts, comments. J

Are you actually losing coolant? That's either a leak somewhere or a head gasket issue.

If you're not losing coolant then there's another issue:

Is the pump working - does the top of the radiator get hot? Do the top and bottom hoses get hot too? If it's not getting hot then either the thermostat or the pump is unserviceable or the waterways are blocked badly in the radiator or block/head.

The fan running continuously is an issue that needs resolution though. Firstly, do you have an override switch on the dash or is it only the thermoswitch on the radiator? With the ignition on try pulling a wire off the thermoswitch and see if it stops.

Actually, before you pull the wires off get a sheet of A4 paper and, with the ignition on (engine doesn't need to run) and the fan running put the paper between the fan and engine and see which way it gets blown. If it's sucked towards the fan that's your issue - the fan is fighting the air trying to come through the radiator and it'll need the wires swapping over.

I also assume that the shrouds infront of the radiator are in place? If they're not any air coming in the grilles can escape around the side instead of through the matrix.

Guy

The more I think about this the more I think it's the Revotec fan being a push type mounted on the wrong side of the radiator when you need the pull type mounted on the back. I don't think that reversing the wires on a Revotec fan is doable. The Revotec website lists two types of fan, one push, one pull. Motors rotate the same way for either type.

https://www.revotec.com/acatalog/9%20(225mm)%20SuckerBlowing%20TechSpec%20HP.pdf (https://www.revotec.com/acatalog/9%20(225mm)%20SuckerBlowing%20TechSpec%20HP.pdf)

Guy

Hi Jono, trust you're well.

Another thought:

The in-head thermostat: I think this needs a small bypass hole in it.[you'd have to check
with the installation chap]
Have you got coolant circulating in the top steel rail? Does this rail warm up at a similar
rate to, say, the heater hoses?[with heater turned on]

Regards, Nigel

Guy & Nigel, back from workshop. All checks completed. I've been assured the Revotec fan is correctly configured, and so drawing warm air away. All my tin shrouding that guides cool air through the grill is in situ. The by-pass is all correctly arranged too. I Have no obvious coolant leaks. The only real suspect appears to be my rad, it's a period one, second-hand, that got thrown on just prior to my ownership. All other components are box-fresh. Silicone hoses, pump etc. So, the rad will go for a new core, apparently a larger capacity can be achieved within the original dimensions. Fingers crossed.

Hopefully that'll cure it then Jono - let us know if it does?

Hi

Curious if the rad is a plastic or the early metal variety?

I understood the plastic recore was not available?

Peter

As far as I know only the very latest cars mostly built in 1984 came with alloy rads with plastic end tanks although a few will have been changed over the years. I don't think the S2FL2 rads either metal or alloy/plastic fit the earlier cars??

Hi

No idea on interchangeability of early/late rads. I have had three early cars all were all metal. The X plate car had a plastic one but never compared to early ones.

Peter

Hello all, well I've only seen under the bonnet of my Beta, I've had no comparison. My radiator is puzzling me. It seems plastic on top, slightly domed in profile. The little expansion tank outlet is snug and recessed. Approximately 48 cms long. Impressed on the top is a manufacturer logo - 'IPRA' - perhaps an after-market part, or maybe these were rads Lancia uesd back then? Part number is 85667. Visually is doesn't look like an early Beta type that Mark has on his store site. My car came of the production line in 76, this was revealed on the underside of the original fuel tank. Registered in Florence in 77. Have found IPRA rads fitted to Alfas... Looking forward to my upgrade. Missing the simplicity of the air-cooled flat-four in my Citroen! J

Mines a 1976 build too and has and IPRA rad which I know to be original.

Mark

Hi

The 76 HPE I have is also IPRA, but all metal, pretty sure the Spider (76/77) one is the same.

Peter

Thank you Mark, Peter, for looking under your respective hoods... Now I know there's nothing fundamentally unusual about what's on my car. I have two options, 1: to have this existing one repaired, and upgraded ( if it's possible). Option 2: a new 'old stock' rad sent from Ireland, at no cost, I just pay the carriage. The latter seems best to me. From Patrick Hurst of 'Originale Italiano'. Apparently he has a great deal of Beta spares, as he is closing his venture. See full page ad at the back of Auto Italia Mag. April issue, but if anyone wants his contact I can pass it on...

I'd be interested in Patrick's contact details, please.

Me too…

Peter

Here follows Patrick Hurst's details : -

07738 291388

patrick@patrickhurst.com

Thanks

Cooling update: back from my technician/workshop. Existing rad out, did contain a good deal of sediment. Block flushed in both directions - again more crud - good condition rad went on, plus new expansion tank. All good, but temp gauge still moves towards red section. Doesn't spend time dwelling centrally. The top hose is never too hot to the hand. It's reckoned my temp gauge is faulty? I will put the word out for a 1st series temperature guage. Haynes shows me it isn't a difficult task.

Hi Jono,
All Beta gauges are notorious for odd and incorrect readings, although strangely,
they seem to continue functioning in some manner or other.

It may be worthwhile renewing the sender unit in the head, these can also give
erroneous outputs.

Also consider obtaining a generic temp gauge as a temporary test device.

If there's no signs of overheating, and the fan is cutting in after the thermostat has opened,
it's probably ok. I really understand, though, that a bad indication is just not wanted.

Regards
Nigel

Hi

A quick, cheap and simple check is to get a hand held temperature gun so you can compare as the gauge changes to see what actually changes. Will eliminate various unknowns quickly before you start spending real money on items. They are available on Ebay. The absolute accuracy is not so important for you, just the relative change in temp which you appear to be seeing can be checked.

Peter

I've had this happen to me, when I was on the way down to France in the Spider. All of a sudden the temp gauge moved into the red and I quickly stopped. Did a full check and all temps were normal. Replaced the errant sender as soon as I could.

Now finally my dashboard temp gauge corroborates my engine temperature, after a bit of manual encouragement from Nigel - needle bending - an early series HPE temp gauge wasn't precisely the same. Disappointingly didn't fit. Two weeks ago my Beta visited  CCK Historic to be analysed on a rolling road. Secured by steel cables and taken up to 6000rpm behind a locked reinforced door. Slightly harrowing experience. I had to sign a waiver, things can go wrong - apparently - but rarely. Primary idle jet replaced, but the major finding was timing was worryingly out by a a nasty margin. Mixture set. Another run in the 'road' and all findings were good. Car runs exceedingly well now, never been better. Not a procedure I'll need to repeat - an expensive one- but really beneficial. J

The instrument panel in Jono's car was made by Jaeger. Indeed unfortunate that Peter's
unit wouldn't fit! After thinking about it for a while, and knowing that temps and fan are all
correct, and that a hand-held temp gauge had already confirmed this, and that we knew
that the existing gauge worked, adjusting the needle was deemed the sensible approach.

Jono, your car sounds and performs very well. The rolling road money was very well spent.
..and during the drive, I sat on the correct side!

Cheers, N.