Lancia Beta Forum

General Category => Group Buys => Topic started by: chrisc on February 11, 2021, 03:47:47 PM



Title: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on February 11, 2021, 03:47:47 PM
Hi all,
  I'm in the early stages of figuring out how to get the VX cloth remade and have enough promising leads and dependencies sorted now to start gauging interest.

If you're interested, please shout here for how much you're after (working estimate is 7 - 9m for a full interior) and I'll keep all informed here.

Working estimate for pricing is around £redacted/m - hopefully less but plan on that.

Cheers
Chris


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on February 11, 2021, 04:51:28 PM
Hi Chris

I am up for this.

Eric


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on February 13, 2021, 12:37:58 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but do you have any photos of the VX pattern cloth? I'm certainly interested as I'd very much like to replace the black plastic interior of my Spider with cloth.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: SanRemo78 on February 13, 2021, 01:02:24 PM
check the link on post 14 of this thread
http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4390.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4390.0)
 or this link
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/320248223501528725/ (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/320248223501528725/)
Guy


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on February 13, 2021, 02:41:59 PM
I assume this is the fabric we're talking about?

https://www.gsfricambi.it/prodotto/tessuto-lancia-beta-volumex/ (https://www.gsfricambi.it/prodotto/tessuto-lancia-beta-volumex/)

If so, count me in. That looks very classy and would suit my light blue metallic Spider perfectly.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on February 13, 2021, 03:02:49 PM
Hi Graham

That is exactly the fabric and what I have in a faded and well used form on my 2 VX coupe interiors. For now without enough fabric to re-trim in a matched way I will fit the best I have. I am lucky my VX coupe seats still have the map pockets on the back with the Zegna logo tag. Normally these are the first thing to disappear as the fabric is used to repair the bolsters.

I have 2 sets of door cards made in Plywood ready for finding a suitable fabric. I looked at the Gamma L fabric in dark blue, but that is also special order from the Gamma owners group only when they have enough interest. The VX coupe fabric makes the interior special for me so I set out from the start to use that.

Eric   


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on February 13, 2021, 07:16:18 PM
Thanks Eric. In that case I'd be in for enough cloth to re-trim the entire interior of my Spider, including door cards, headlining, seats and detachable roof panel.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on February 14, 2021, 11:36:10 AM
Hi Graham

I am re-trimming the Headlining in black perforated like the original. It is made but not yet fitted. I have also gone for sound cloth over 4mm non porous foam for the spider roofs to reduce noise from the roof. I prefer the contrast and think the heavy pattern over head will be too much, but it is a free world and variety is the joy of Lancia ownership.

Eric


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on February 15, 2021, 11:46:54 AM
Hi Eric,

Just musing aloud really - when I finally get round to it I'll probably change my mind again.  ;D  But if and when this group buy takes off, I'll make sure I get enough cloth to cover all eventualities.

Cheers,

Graham


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on February 15, 2021, 12:55:08 PM
Hi all, had some positive comms today, will update with progress.

Possibly might even be able to achieve an improvement on the original - matching the pattern / colour but adding durability. Will keep you all updated here


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on February 15, 2021, 01:54:35 PM
Excellent I am looking forward to hearing more.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on February 15, 2021, 04:13:56 PM
Next update will be in a month or so when I should have some example swatches in different weights / base material to assess colour match / durability / pliability.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: Martin D on February 20, 2021, 07:32:18 PM
Hello Chris,

I'm up for some cloth, definitely want enough for both front seats, the rest of my interior is good so may not want to go to the hassle of re-upholstering everything but may reconsider (???).

Thanks Eric for the heads up !

Martin.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on February 21, 2021, 10:32:39 AM
Hi Martin

Please you made it here. FYI you want a car's worth because yours will be faded and brittle in places and it will show. The trimming cost is mostly in the front seats because they are most complex.

Eric 


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on March 12, 2021, 05:38:04 PM
Hi all,
  latest update is that a first test piece has been made. I've not seen it yet, will do soon. I've been advised that it's looking promising but not quite ready yet, and that it normally takes a couple of goes to get it right.

Super exciting, I'll post up a picture of the test piece next to some original cloth so you can see how the first draft (emphasis on draft) is looking

Chris


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on March 12, 2021, 06:14:46 PM
Fantastic and yes I am excited


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on March 15, 2021, 02:25:28 PM
Test piece arrived today as the first go at getting the colours + patterns right. 1 pattern, 4 different colour choices

(https://i.ibb.co/809y6Rp/Colours.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QfMWrqR)

The piece of original cloth I've chucked over the top for comparison is pretty faded (the supplier is using a much much better piece as the start point), but it forms a useful basis for comparison.

With this being the first test run I'm really pleased with the results. I think we have a colour match in there, certainly can downselect to 2 choices

2 improvements to the pattern for the next test run -
  • Getting the alternating stripes width within the rectangle pattern right. At the moment this has the effect of making the pattern not look dark or light enough, but it's the pattern not the colours if you see what I mean
  • Getting the rectangle size right

Another 2 weeks or so for the next test run
Chris




Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on March 15, 2021, 03:12:25 PM
Hi Chris

Good progress, but as you say the light to dark contrast is off looking at the non faded OE fabric edge. I look forward to more progress.

Thank you

Eric


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: rossocorsa on March 15, 2021, 04:26:35 PM
The samples look to have a square pattern but the VX Cloth is at least to my eyes actually rectangular, the contrast is definitely not sufficient but for a first attempt it's not at all bad.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: frankxhv773t on March 15, 2021, 09:26:52 PM
Out of curiosity more than anything else I wonder if cloth patterns are copyrighted. I seem to remember the chequered Volumex cloth being proudly proclaimed as being by the fashion house Zegna.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: rossocorsa on March 15, 2021, 11:02:13 PM
Out of curiosity more than anything else I wonder if cloth patterns are copyrighted. I seem to remember the chequered Volumex cloth being proudly proclaimed as being by the fashion house Zegna.

That had passed my mind too but surely they wouldn't worry too much about a few nutters replicating it at no real commercial profit? Zegna do still exist though so it will be their intellectual property I suppose?


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on March 15, 2021, 11:32:46 PM
I'll worry about it if and when it happens. besides which it won't be the same, it'll be more durable than the original :)

Emphasis - this is the first test run, not the finished product.

The colours are actually ok, it's just that they look different because the pattern is a little off.

Another 2 weeks or so for the next test run.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: rossocorsa on March 16, 2021, 12:44:52 AM
It is certainly close, it just looks rather like badly faded VX Cloth at the moment, it looks like the size and density of the stitching is the main issue. When new the VX Cloth is much darker than it appears in surviving cars.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: Nigel on March 20, 2021, 08:19:04 PM
For info, the original material had what's called a scrim backing attached to it.
It's a 2/3mm foam with a thin nylon mesh-type fabric attached to create a 'sandwich'.
That's what breaks down and rots into orange dust over 40-odd years.

I'm sure modern foam will be better, and i'd recommend using something like that between
the new fabric and the seat foam.

Perhaps the suppliers or an upholsterer would know the best route to take.

Nigel


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on March 21, 2021, 01:29:59 PM
Hi Nigel

A good point and I would expect my trimmer to just do that based on previous experience. Any decent trimmer has a vast knowledge of foam and knows what will work with a given fabric.

Eric


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on March 31, 2021, 12:03:40 PM
Almost there everyone!

(https://i.ibb.co/wdyrjG5/cropped-back-seat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NFxnbDc)

(https://i.ibb.co/HCSV0fn/sheen.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0K7ckRh)

This is almost there now and to be honest, if I wasn't looking at it in fine detail next to the original cloth, I wouldn't notice the difference. That said, I am looking at it in fine detail next to original cloth and there's another trial run needed to get it perfect for all of us.

This last photo is just a bit of a cautionary note for anyone eyeing up the idea of just recovering their front seats, this one seat you can see a whole load of different permutations of fading + marks, and just how much the new cloth contrasts against it. As you can see from the first photo, my back seat cloth isn't in terrible nick, but it'll all be getting recovered.

(https://i.ibb.co/HHSVcq3/fadingcomparison.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gR230Jh)



Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on March 31, 2021, 12:17:36 PM
Great work Chris

I do think you need to look at un- faded fabric as the only real reference, perhaps on the under side of the headrest or the underside of the seat bases. You pictures show exactly the reason why patch repairs even by an expert trimmer are a nightmare. The OE fabric has faded to so many different colours and shades.

This will allow our cars to look amazing again.

Eric   


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: rossocorsa on March 31, 2021, 12:52:29 PM
Looking good, the original cloth has an odd effect as it fades as it seems to adopt a blueish tinge. Back seats and door cards are usually good. I think it is a difficult one to call as an exact match, new original cloth is very dark compared to any on an actual car.   


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on March 31, 2021, 01:07:39 PM
I had 1 piece where I could say hand on heart it was perfectly unfaded, that is with the company doing the weaving as their reference point.

One colour tweak, one pattern tweak to go :)



Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: rossocorsa on March 31, 2021, 02:25:35 PM
I had 1 piece where I could say hand on heart it was perfectly unfaded, that is with the company doing the weaving as their reference point.

One colour tweak, one pattern tweak to go :)



I can post you a very small piece of new original if you need it. It'll be very small though!


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: Sandro on March 31, 2021, 03:27:54 PM

It's great following your progress Chris, It must be extremely rewarding !
..the satisfaction of bringing something bespoke and that's no longer produced back to life ( as new again ) is awesome.

Good luck as you near the final!

A.

   


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on March 31, 2021, 05:09:12 PM
It's certainly been an insight into the effort that Mark and co put into when arranging for items to be remade, with a newfound respect for that effort. Of course for me getting the interior is just one piece of my puzzle - the car itself is off having the bodywork attacked and I'm entertaining myself in trying to refinish a few trim pieces.. how hard can it be to paint a couple of badges I thought!


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: SanRemo78 on March 31, 2021, 08:48:28 PM
Looking really really good! I may have to buy enough to trim a car I haven't bought yet! That's likely to be a year away yet!

Guy


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: DeltaJames on April 15, 2021, 05:16:42 PM
Hello
New member here, following this thread with great interest.
Although I don't have a beta, I own a Delta HF turbo (carb) and the front Recaros are in urgent need of repair.

I managed to find a source in Italy who has the original zegna cloth. Before I placed my order I checked he had the quantity that I needed, which he reassured me he did. I placed my order and waited. To cut the story short it's been a nightmare to deal with this business. He didn't send my item in 4 months, ignoring all my emails. So I did a charge back through my bank, then once I was refunded he sent the item. Then 2 weeks once it arrives it was the wrong colour and he only sent 1.8 meters. The matter is now back with the bank to deal with.

What your doing is great work. If possible I would also like to purchase enough to do the whole car. Even though it's not the same colour as the Delta Zegna it looks fantastic


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: frankxhv773t on April 16, 2021, 10:02:46 AM
My old HPE Volumex had gold Zenga so if that's the same as Delta fabric maybe the work already done could develop into also reproducing cloth of gold.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: DeltaJames on April 16, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
If you look at the door cards(also back seats not in photo)you can see they are the original dark blue Square I think they called it.
The front seats were retrimmed by Lancia in the early 90s as my dad worked at there main head office in Crawley, but even then Lancia couldn't source the correct colour.
In all fairness I prefer the darker shade in the beta so would be happy with that.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on April 18, 2021, 04:55:55 PM
I suspect getting other colour options with the same pattern should be relatively simple as I already have a number of other options from when they were getting the right match for the volumex cloth, so it'd be a bit of .. you've already got the pattern, but I need this colour.

Still got to cross the bridge of getting the VX cloth finalised first mind, expect an update in the next week or so!


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: Simongore on April 18, 2021, 05:03:07 PM
Hi Chris
Not sure when you will be at ordering stage but when you are please let me know
I have just bought a vx coupe and I will be after some of the material.
Thanks in advance
Simon


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: arguti on April 20, 2021, 01:29:15 PM
I too am interested!

Great work by the wa


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: monte on April 20, 2021, 09:33:21 PM
add me also to the list please
Tom


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on April 22, 2021, 05:07:28 PM
Hi all, I was hoping to have a production ready sample this week but the latest sample still has one more tweak to do where the requirement got lost in translation a bit but hopefully is now resolved following a conversation today.

Once again I shall lift the bonnet a bit with a snapshot of what's left..

(https://i.ibb.co/Kjk3Z1V/Capture.png) (https://imgbb.com/)


The latest test run you can see a line at the edge of the rectangles has been tidied up
The last issue is 'the pattern lines are running in the wrong direction' - this has been muddled a bit with confusion because of the direction the cloth comes off the loom and the direction I've been describing it in are different.

Waiting a little longer I'm afraid.. on the delta cloth mentioned, I've confirmed with the supplier that with the pattern sorted, changing the colours is comparatively simple - once we get the final pattern right we can cross that bridge

Cheers
Chris


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: peteracs on April 22, 2021, 06:15:05 PM
Hi Chris

Looking very nice. One quick question are you expecting the final material to be harder wearing than the original?

Peter


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: DeltaJames on April 22, 2021, 08:42:00 PM
@Chris

Thanks for asking about colour options but I think if possible I will go with this option.

Not sure if it's the way the photos taken but the colour seems to change colour grey(left side) to a blue(right side) of photo is that correct?

Great work again though and great attention to detail.

Regards
James


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on April 22, 2021, 09:34:26 PM
Hi Chris

Looking very nice. One quick question are you expecting the final material to be harder wearing than the original?

Peter

Yes - where the original cloth is just wool as such, this is wool over a cotton base. It's immediately apparent when handling it that it's going to be far more resistant to pulls and the like than the original cloth


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on April 22, 2021, 09:38:43 PM
@Chris

Thanks for asking about colour options but I think if possible I will go with this option.

Not sure if it's the way the photos taken but the colour seems to change colour grey(left side) to a blue(right side) of photo is that correct?

Great work again though and great attention to detail.

Regards
James

The most recent photo I've taken is particularly poor with the colour resolution, but yes, all the samples produced have had a range of colours on them to be assessed against the original material. You can see this more clearly in these photos from earlier in the thread -
(https://i.ibb.co/wdyrjG5/cropped-back-seat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NFxnbDc)

(https://i.ibb.co/HCSV0fn/sheen.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0K7ckRh)


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: DeltaJames on April 23, 2021, 06:49:46 AM
@Chris

Thanks for reply.
That makes sense. Even though I saw your previous photos, I didn't manage to work that out for myself. Thanks for clarifying 👍


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: andybeta on April 27, 2021, 01:47:18 AM
Nice work Chris. To me the test fabrics seems as if they have slightly too much blue in them, maybe scale this back? I would definitely be interested buying new cloth, although I think my front Recaro seats are actually still ok. The rear seats are still beige though not the black blue grey cloth of the front Recaros. I would like enough cloth to re-trim the whole car (HPE VX) including door cards and side panels so it all matches. And will durability of this new cloth be much better than the old cloth? The original just wasn't robust enough or colour fast. It looked fabulous though.

Underneath seats maybe a good place to take a sample of the original cloth from as little exposure to UV light down there, possibly.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on May 21, 2021, 04:59:06 PM
Hello again everyone!

Well, I thought it would take 2 or 3 iterations to get a decent recreation of the cloth..

It took 6, but we are there! more durable, better constructed cloth, as it would have been when it was new - no frayed / fluffy yarn, colours all unfaded. I can't wait to get this into my own car.

I'm placing an order for enough for 9 full cars (including my own) based off the interest so far, expecting delivery mid-July

I'll be £redacted a metre to buy - full disclosure I am an enthusiast who got into this because I wanted the cloth for my own car, I'm not really interested in selling the cloth for a profit, so this'll be a cheap introductory price, and any that doesn't sell quickly I intend to pass on to Beta Boyz to sell, which I would expect to be more than my own - certainly if I was doing this as a business I would be asking for more :)

This is an initial run and we can order more in the future as needed, including in different colours if wanted, like the chap with the Delta - the pattern has been the hard bit to match, not colours..

This first order hits bulk discount territory, minimum order for future runs from the supplier would be about 2 cars worth.

Fingers crossed the stars will align for me to bring the cloth down to the get together at the end of July.

Anyway, enough words, lets have some pictures -

Weather here is abysmal so no photos in natural outside light, but here we are
(https://i.ibb.co/ByLRnGt/onseat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5rTVKk6)

And here's a detailed shot of it with some original cloth at the top. You can see that even with this original cloth in relatively good condition, it's fluffier / less distinct where the yarn has frayed.

(https://i.ibb.co/kBvWN69/detail2-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T2dF9qb)

I won't be taking money off anyone for orders yet until I have the full run in my hands, but if you've been watching this thread and waiting to see how it turns out, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll contact you when it lands.

Chris


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on May 21, 2021, 05:24:52 PM
Hi Chris

Fantastic news I will be at Mark's Open Day. Let me know when you need the money please.

I do have a slight doubt on how good a match is it to the un faded original fabric found under the headrests and sometimes on rear door cards?

I am completely aware I am looking at a monitor and have no real world reference for the seats it is being compared to.

Thank you

Eric


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: Dodgems on May 21, 2021, 07:51:07 PM
Hi Chris
Thanks very much for your efforts.  ;D
We will be at Mark’s open day and we are interested in the cloth. We also have a VX HPE.
Is anyone else interested in looking in to having cloth made in the beige colour way for the HPE’s
Best regards
Amanda


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: DeltaJames on May 21, 2021, 09:12:57 PM
@Chris

What a fantastic job you have done, the effort you have clearly gone to to get this just right is amazing.
I'm still very interested in enough fabric for the whole car if possible. I know I was quite late to find this thread so don't want to jump ahead of anyone but count me in if you still have availability.

All the best
James



Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: Nigel on May 21, 2021, 10:21:24 PM
What an absolutely brilliant job you've done Chris.

Although i'm happy with my outcome, had timing been different I would have loved to use
some original cloth.

Next time!


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on May 21, 2021, 10:44:49 PM
Chris,

Absolutely top marks for perseverance and determination to get the job done right. Well done you. The end result looks great and will make a huge difference to the look and feel of our treasured old-timers. I certainly will sign up for enough to trim the whole interior (however much that may be), with probably a bit more for good measure. If you can organise it all for the meet up at Mark's place in July that would be fantastic. If not, then whenever it can be arranged is good for me. Really looking forward to seeing the end result in the flesh (or the cloth to be more precise...)

Graham


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: GerardJPC on May 22, 2021, 04:25:05 AM
Out of curiosity more than anything else I wonder if cloth patterns are copyrighted. I seem to remember the chequered Volumex cloth being proudly proclaimed as being by the fashion house Zegna.



A fabric design is likely to be protected by copyright.  See Response Clothing Ltd v The Edinburgh Woollen Mill Ltd [2020] EWHC 148 (IPEC), a decision of the English High Court made last year.

Zegna, a brand still owned by the family of its founder, designed fabric for Betas and also for Deltas and (IIRC) Gammas.  The copyright in the fabric is likely to be held either by Zegna or by Lancia (in other words by Stellantis).   The copyright will last a while yet - its duration is pegged to a period measured from the death of whichever person created the design (probably an employee of Zegna, which became the first owner of the IP because it employed the creator of the IP, and which may have transferred the IP to Lancia).   That person may well still be living.  If he or she has died, he or she will not have been dead long enough for the copyright to expire.

Whether Zegna or Lancia would object to infringement of the copyright by and for a small group of old car enthusiasts is not clear.  Note however that Stellantis has recently announced that it will be supporting Alfa, Fiat, and Lancia cars from the 1990s by selling parts for them.   As the new fossil fuel-driven car heads towards its demise, many big brands are ramping up their heritage offerings.  

There has been much emotive misreporting of Jaguar Land Rover's recent action against a Swedish couple who made a replica of a C Type Jaguar.   The story has been spun by the Swedes and their supporters, and by some car journalists who should know better, as a Goliath defeats David story of a greedy corporate crushing a couple of hapless enthusiasts.  In fact, the Swedes were found by the Court in Sweden to have been planning to rip-off JLR's IP for commercial gain, and that is what led to the law suit.      

A small production run of fabric, not intended to make a profit, or with profits donated to a charity or to other Lancia heritage projects, might be the sort of thing that the owner of the IP would not mind.

IAAL.  IANYL.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on May 22, 2021, 11:35:06 AM
I really hope that considerations of copyright won't influence Chris's intentions to proceed with this. I think that were the original cloth still available at sensible cost, this question would never have arisen. But it's not and Chris has admirably stepped into the breach. While I am no lawyer, I would have thought that the actions of a small group of enthusiasts trying to keep a marque alive (that Fiat appears to have cut loose) would not need to trouble copyright lawyers. I'm not sure how cloth differs from, say, engine or chassis parts when being re-manufactured. There's no great outcry when BetaBoyz remanufacture hard or impossible to get parts - why should it be any different with respect to the cloth used in the manufacture of Betas?

For me the over-riding point is that the original cloth is NLA, has not been for many years, and is unlikely to ever be so. I suspect that volumes would be so small that the original copyright holder would have no interest in it anyway.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: GerardJPC on May 22, 2021, 12:18:31 PM
As for car parts, there are various EU rules that enable the manufacture and supply of pattern parts for cars, in order to reduce the anti-competitive effect of large companies controlling the supply of parts.     The supply of fabric for seats probably falls outside those rules, but unless either Zegna or Lancia, whichever owns the copyright, is planning to sell the cloth or even whole seats again, then the IP owner might not be bothered by a small production run aimed at sales to enthusiasts.   


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: peteracs on May 22, 2021, 11:58:32 PM
Hi

I think the only real  issue here would be if Chris or the company making the cloth were to offer it on a commercial basis to all comers, which is the point Gerard makes above. So long as the company are happy making it, then a group buy should present no issue. A little less clear would be Mark reselling it I guess?

Peter


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 23, 2021, 01:26:59 PM
I wonder if the company manufacturing the cloth might be able to advise on IP rights? Unless it is confirmed there is no issue then being circumspect about how widely it is advertised may be the most prudent option.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: GerardJPC on May 23, 2021, 07:37:12 PM
Wrong horse for the course!   By this I mean that, if you want legal advice that you can reasonably rely on, it's prudent to obtain that advice from someone whose job it is to give such advice, and who is insured against the risk of getting the advice wrong.  


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 24, 2021, 11:20:52 AM
Whilst I fully agree that legal advice should come from a properly qualified source my thought was that a company commercially reproducing somebody else's design "might" already have covered the issue with their own legal advisors. If so that would give some measure of reassurance even if not actual legal protection.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on May 24, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
I suspect if Gerard (no disrespect) weren't from his background we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I have some recent practical experience of this in another area. I wanted to reproduce something no longer available in a quantity only suitable for personal use, and asked the copyright owner if they were happy with that as they no longer produced it, or if they weren't happy for me to reproduce it for them to do another production run for my requirement. They said no to both, with no reason given. I went ahead and did it anyway. Breaching copyright law? definitely, but think about the chain of events required for it to become an issue -

  • Someone from the company would have to be at the location where the reproduced item is
  • They would have to recognise a 40 year old design that they no longer produced
  • They would have to recognise that the item itself was not original
  • They would have to decide that it was worth pursuing

If someone feels like reaching out to Zegna to try and put an obstacle in the way of cloth being available for our cars, I'd wonder what they were even doing browsing an enthusiasts forum!



Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on May 24, 2021, 01:05:36 PM
Spot on, Chris. There are always people who want to stop other people from doing stuff, for reasons (if you can call them that) which are beyond comprehension. I just ignore them. As you say, a long chain of events would need to unfold before it ever became an issue. What you are proposing (and we are backing you to the hilt) is a million miles away from a Chinese knock-off operation blatantly infringing IP and churning out millions of substandard copies of a popular product.

I may be in a similar situation if the planets align; I was interested in acquiring a 'long' fifth gear set as sold by the Monte Hospital until I read Eric's warning about the poor quality of the parts. The gears had been manufactured by a company in Italy, acting on the instructions of a French chap (he owns the IP rights) who used to live in California but has now allegedly relocated to Ottawa. I tried to track him down, but none of my enquiries were ever returned. The Italian company have ceased trading and will only talk to the IP rights holder.

Looking further into it, and after having had a discussion with an engineering company in Sheffield, I decided that if I was to attempt any re-manufacture that the ratios would be different to those sold by MH. This was partly to side-step any IP issues, but also because the MH set required the use of allen head bolts rather than hex head bolts and the 'easing' of another part of the transmission in the gear housing, all to provide clearance for the larger gear. This all spelled 'bodge' in capital neon letters to me, so my plan was to lose a little in terms of ratio, but allow ample clearance for the gears without any modifications being needed.

Anyway, that's a digression. I'm fully in agreement with your intentions and don't believe for a minute that any IP rights issues will surface. You're more likely to see Lord Lucan riding Shergar past your house. (Showing my age here...)


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: GerardJPC on May 24, 2021, 04:31:40 PM
The comments in the previous two posts are surprising, especially given the usually pleasant tone of this forum.   Earlier in this thread, frankxhv773t asked a question about copyright.   I provided an answer to the question.  That is all.  Nobody is attempting to stop anybody doing anything.    


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: peteracs on May 24, 2021, 05:15:55 PM
Hi All

I suggest the issues of Copyright have now been well aired and would like to get this thread back to the actual material availability if that is ok with everyone?

Gerard, I do not think anyone was criticising your comments given the question was indeed raised.

Peter


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on May 24, 2021, 07:57:10 PM
I realise that my comments about 'people who want to stop other people doing stuff' could have been misconstrued as a pop at Gerard. This was absolutely not my intention. It was a reference to Chris's recent experience, nothing more. My ire was directed at rights holders who don't want to do anything with their IP, but don't want anyone else to use it, even under licence.  I apologise if anyone was offended or upset by this, and agree with Peter that we should return this thread to its original purpose.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: frankxhv773t on May 24, 2021, 08:21:01 PM
The question has been considered so I'm more than happy to get back to the cloth.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: DeltaJames on July 01, 2021, 09:00:42 PM
Is there any further updates on the progress with the fabric.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on July 02, 2021, 08:41:49 AM
Should be delivered to me any day now.

Newborn here is keeping me distracted at the moment from my beta, but still ticking over


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: squiglyzigly on July 03, 2021, 11:04:02 AM
Can I join the list or is it too late?

Thanks
Ian


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: DeltaJames on July 03, 2021, 11:05:07 AM
Should be delivered to me any day now.

Newborn here is keeping me distracted at the moment from my beta, but still ticking over

That's great news as said before I know I was late but if possible definitely will take a whole set for the car.

Congrats on the baby. If it's your first it gets easier with time. If it's not then your already know that 🙂👍


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on July 03, 2021, 12:28:59 PM
Can I join the list or is it too late?

Thanks
Ian



Don't want to pre-empt Chris, but I'd have thought 'the more the merrier'; the more cloth we order as a group the more likely the overall cost will decrease (on a per unit basis).


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on July 07, 2021, 06:49:06 PM
Hi all,
  baby is our first, very much hoping it gets easier with time, whilst also wanting to not miss out of this very cute stage!

On beta business, the order I put in was for all the people who've expressed interest, plus a bit more for future demands so shouldn't be a problem for late arrivals.

The manufacturer got in touch with me today, confirming it's all woven and ready for dispatch, just shy of 84m total.

As ever, my mantra is not long now


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: mangocrazy on July 07, 2021, 10:12:23 PM
Hi Chris,

Thanks so much for seeoing this through to completion, especially with the (very welcome!) distraction of your first baby. Is the Grand Reveal still on target for the BetaBoyz gathering at end of July? And have you given thought as to how you wish to be paid for the cloth?

Thanks again, and well done you.

Graham


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on July 08, 2021, 03:39:21 PM
Hi Chris,

Thanks so much for seeoing this through to completion, especially with the (very welcome!) distraction of your first baby. Is the Grand Reveal still on target for the BetaBoyz gathering at end of July? And have you given thought as to how you wish to be paid for the cloth?

Thanks again, and well done you.

Graham

Picture speaks a thousand words...

(https://i.ibb.co/Z1pgGb6/IMG-20210708-122011.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LhXgYsz)
(https://i.ibb.co/jh3zs5j/IMG-20210708-150859.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xhzYdsr)
(https://i.ibb.co/23xY0Zk/IMG-20210708-150830.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tpgPwLJ)

It'll be £redacted/metre for people buying off me - quoting myself

Quote
It'll be £redacted a metre to buy - full disclosure I am an enthusiast who got into this because I wanted the cloth for my own car, I'm not really interested in selling the cloth for a profit, so this'll be a cheap introductory price, and any that doesn't sell quickly I intend to pass on to Beta Boyz to sell, which I would expect to be more than my own - certainly if I was doing this as a business I would be asking for more Smiley

With the cloth now with me I'll see if I can meet a stretch goal for the end of July meetup of not just bringing the cloth, but seeing if I can get a seat retrimmed in it to bring with me to show.

For those who just want it now, I just need to give some thought to payment method and shipping and it'll be good to go in a few days


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on July 08, 2021, 05:41:20 PM
Hi Chris

Good news! I am happy to pay by BACS and supply my mobile number by PM so you can contact me on Whats App with your bank details (encrypted). My trimmer suggested 9 meters to do the whole car safely so that's what I would like.

I look forward to seeing it at Mark's Devon palace of parts.

Eric 



Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on July 11, 2021, 06:21:09 PM
Hi all, having contemplated various options I'm going to keep it simple

How much does it cost?
It'll be £redacted a metre to buy - full disclosure I am an enthusiast who got into this because I wanted the cloth for my own car, I'm not really interested in selling the cloth for a profit, so this'll be a cheap introductory price, and any that doesn't sell quickly I intend to pass on to Beta Boyz to sell, which I would expect to be more than my own - certainly if I was doing this as a business I would be asking for more

How do I pay?
Bank transfer or if we're doing it in person, cash would also be fine.

When do I pay?
If I'm shipping it to you, it'll be payment in advance, in person we can do payment once you've seen the cloth and are happy with it.

How do I get the cloth?
Either
  • Collect in person - opportunities to do this either at the meetup in Devon, or from my address in Bristol
  • Courier via Parcelforce 48 hour shipping, insured for the full value. Insurance makes it relatively costly e.g. £40 if ordering 9 metres of cloth. If you want to go without insurance it'll still be tracked but only covered for £100, costing £10.32 at your own risk

Sounds good, how do I arrange it?
Whatsapp or call me - 07734 487775 is my mobile number

How much cloth will I need?
I'm working on Eric's earlier recommendation of 7-9 metres for a full interior

Can I get some for just the front seats?
Sure, but I would really recommend doing the whole interior to ensure a good colour match - even the best condition original fabric will have faded significantly by now

How does this compare to the original cloth?
The pattern and colour is practically identical to the original, the wool is less frayed, for want of a better word than the original type - so the pattern will appear slightly crisper than the original. The cloth is wool over a cotton base rather than the pure wool of the original, meaning it is more durable and should be less prone to pulls or wear.

What if I'm not happy with the cloth?
I think you will be, but if you aren't, provided it's as it arrived, if you pay to send it back, I'll refund you.

Bank transfer doesn't give me the best protection as a buyer, what assurances do I have you won't run off with my money?
You'll have my mobile number, my address, and a bunch of people who have met me, seen the cloth and know I'm genuine - if I run off with your money, you'll know exactly where to send the boys in blue / your mates with a crowbar :)

Edit : additional question's
How wide is the cloth?
The roll is 1.3m wide, so if you order 9m of cloth, that's 9m by 1.3m

Can you ship internationally?
Should be doable but insured international shipping is prohibitively expensive (e.g. £300 to australia) so as with uninsured uk shipping, you'll need to be happy to take that risk.



Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on July 12, 2021, 04:42:43 PM
Hi Chris

I have sent you a Whats App based on me collecting at Mark's do and paying by Bank Transfer.

Thank you

Eric


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: Martin D on July 17, 2021, 06:02:34 PM
Hello Chris,
thanks for email, I've sent a WhatsApp reply.

Eric, I guess 9m includes enough for the door cards too ?

Thanks Gents.


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: WestonE on July 17, 2021, 08:32:09 PM
Hi Martin

I am counting on doing the whole car including the door cards.

Eric


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on July 28, 2021, 05:06:13 PM
Just a little update.. 56 metres now sold, expressions of interest at various stages in another 49 metres.. first few orders posted out to UK and Australia!

The observant amongst you will have noticed that totals more than the amount of cloth I had made, and indeed enough to justify another production run via the shop.

Looking forward to handing over a few batches in person this weekend
Chris


Title: Re: Volumex cloth reproduction
Post by: chrisc on August 01, 2021, 08:31:19 PM
Hi all, to update you, I've now transferred all the remaining unsold cloth to Mark at the Beta Boyz shop http://www.lanciabetaparts.co.uk/ (http://www.lanciabetaparts.co.uk/) along with the details on how to get more / alternative colours as needed.

I hope you'll all understand as the shop has costs to cover and make a bit of profit the price will go up now.

Bottom line, if you've not yet paid me for cloth, you now need to approach Mark for it.

Thanks
Chris