Lancia Beta Forum

As I am on the home straight for getting my Spider back on the road, hopefully this spring, I have had it in my mind to rebuild an engine for it as the one it has currently is the original one it came with to me over 10 years ago (probably been in there for over 30 years at least) and I am assuming it is a standard 1585cc unit etc.

My thought process started on a replacement engine way back when I read the Darren Cooksey thread on modernising a FI engine and recently after a number of exchanged emails with Eric and discussion with Darren re what known options are sensible for my use, I think the following is my likely target. Note that I have no interest in track day use, just an interesting updated engine to use on the road which will be reliable and usable. I was also inspired after watching numerous US based tuners with modern ECUs and how controllable the tune of an engine can be, as opposed to the one size fits all of standard carbs.

Given I have never rebuilt an engine I initially thought to go in two stages, first with a dual carb setup and then move to FI, however looking at the costs of new carbs and the above mentioned lack of flexibility, I have for now decided to move straight to FI from day one. This means a bunch more work and mods to the car, but given I want to end up there, I might as well do it in one move, rather than two. As to costs it will be more expensive the FI route, but would be a lot more expensive to go the two stage route ultimately.

So onto spec.

I have a couple of both 1600 and 2l engines of unknown state, so any could be used as donors. One concern I did have was that my car has the original 2 vent bonnet, not the later one vent used on 2l, but given that this was an issue for the standard air filter and I will be using a custom arrangement, this should not be an issue. It appears I have little to lose and lots to gain by going with 2l. One issue a number of folk have is using a side draught carb/throttle body as the air intake is next to the radiator, so some games have to be played to get cold air in. Eric solved this using a relocated custom rad, however by going with a down draught dcnf style throttle bodies removes that issue and I can keep my standard rad position. Dual Dcnf manifolds are still available for this config to give the one port per cylinder config which is the ideal scenario.

I am also making use of a couple of GC's books, GC's forum and a Haynes Engine Management book by Dave Walker. The engine management book I have started reading and looks to have some interesting advice even for looking at tuning a standard engine, or at the very least understanding what is going on.

So onto the list of items I am looking to include (not complete, but gives you an idea)

2L block and crank
Modified head ideally with VX size valves
Cometic head gasket
Cast pistons
Uprated con rods
GC 3/A inlet cam
Standard 2L exhaust cam
Vernier Cam wheels
Baffled Sump
Updated water pump
Lightened flywheel
Integrale clutch
Dual DCNF inlet manifold
Dual dcnf throttle bodies
Webcon swirl pot/pump connected to original tank
Upgrade return fuel pipe to 8mm
4-2-1 exhaust manifold
Oil cooler

Gearbox - probably change diff ratio to improve cruising

I do not expect too many updates on this as very much background project for now, but will be looking to buy parts where I find them at a decent price.

I suspect my starting budget for the build is £4k, but never having done this before, I could be miles out...... hopefully the wife will understand!!

Peter

Hi Peter

I am happy to help you achieve an amazing result with a stealthy period look. As we have discussed finding skilled experienced people who know the chosen ECU and how to use their Rolling Road is essential. If in doubt ask the ECU supplier directly for their top 5 recommended. Shipping the car on a trailer for mapping to the right person is MUCH better than a local have a go hero. No ECUs (even the most expensive) will auto map from initial start up and start up maps are just to start the car and fix any oil/water leaks NOT drive it. Wide Band Lambda sensors tune and tweak the car as you drive if set up just like they do on some modern cars.  

Because of this the car will be on a trailer for initial ECU setup. The results are normally brilliant and you can get the car run in on the rollers before an oil and filter swap and power runs.

High Quality Electrical Crimping tools and waterproof connectors are your friends. Neither should be cheap and nasty.

I am glad to see you have no intention to use OE conrods in your build. They are just a huge false economy these days being a high stress component. Unfortunately along with used pistons frequently the cause of an early blow up on re-built engines.

Enjoy

Eric
NB The Haynes book is dated now and an obvious promo for Emerald (there are better options). However the installation hints and how to position the trigger wheel and sensor are worth it.

Peter,

The work you’ve done on your car so far is stunning, and I certainly understand that the direction projects follow is extremely personal, but I can’t help feeling you’ve now gone looking for some birch twigs with which to whip yourself!  

Why not build a nice standard engine to get the car on the road then develop one of your other engines to be the much more complex FI beast you desire? A standard engine can hold your removable items like baffled sump, 4-2-1 exhaust and oil cooler and would probably be both achievable by the Spring and affordable!

Everything boils down to time, cost and performance and with that in mind, I fear your aspirations for this engine project could easily set you back a year + and you probably need to allow at least double your engine budget.  I’ve been there!   At the end, of course, you should have a lovely Beta... but will it be ready for Beta50?    

Chris

Hi Chris

Thanks for the wise words and they are pretty much my thoughts as it happens. The car currently, and for the rest of this year at least, will keep the 1600 standard engine which is running ok, yet to check the gearbox and clutch, waiting for some decent weather to get the suspension tightened up, test gearbox and clutch, align wheels etc. This engine project is just the follow on with no definite target timeframe in mind other than I do not intend to start it until late on in the year, or at least the parts I am going to do. I also do not underestimate the time it will take to complete the build and install, but I would like to get some use of the car before I start to hack it around.......! I shall keep the car intact until the engine is fully built and ready to be installed so that if that rolls on for another year I can keep using the car in the mean time.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Apologies, I should never have doubted but now I understand. You have an excellent plan!

Chris

Hi Peter,

Agree with Chris's comments and glad that you seem to be following this approach - seems to make most sense.

Is your Spider a 1st series car?   Is it a second series 1600 (1585) engine or the earlier (1593 longer stroke/smaller bore) variant ?

An 1800 would be nice if you could find one to work with.

Regarding twin DCOEs then I'm sure that if you could find a reasonable used set of the right size and a similar good used (GC) inlet manifold / linkage etc from somewhere then you could set up pretty quickly and be able to recoup a significant part of outlay on hardware by selling on later.

Keeping fingers crossed for some better COVID news and some good spring/summer weather!

Definitely with you on Spring coming and the whole Covid thing settling down.

My 1600 is the S2 1585, and bits for 1800 are more difficult to find, having said that Mark is looking after an 1800 block for me....

However I think the 2l is the way to go as it is the engine that most folk who modify them will have used and hence there is more experience and uprated parts around.

On the dcnf v dcoe, yes the dcoe are saleable as are the dcnf, though not so many around of the dcnf I think. I really did not want to be messing around with the radiator if possible and absolute power is not a big issue. I think the effort to go FI directly will also be an interesting project and I may have had enough if I just go with carbs and never get to the FI which I think would be a shame. If I was doing this on a tight budget I would go the carb route for sure as the difference in cost is significant.

Peter

Hi Chris

No problem and thanks.

Peter

Peter, I may have an 1800 Fiat block. I'll message you.

Hi Frank

The Fiat ones are different to the Lancia ones as I understand in that the mounting holes are different, but the internals are the same.

Peter

Hi Peter,
Sounds like a very nice project in the making.
My thoughts on the dcnf approach are, if my memory serves me, there isn’t much room above the carbs (throttle bodies) for a decent air box or remote filter take off before you hit the bonnet.  Of course it can be done, but is it as good as a side draught installation? Can anyone confirm if my memory serves me on this or is it indeed picked in vino?
As to the side draught approach, you can push the radiator forward using a VX/i.e. rad for more space without having to go to full rad fabrication and retain a little o.e authenticity.

Just some food for thought.
Looking forward to the project thread.
Ian

Hi Ian

I think you are correct about space, I suspect the dcnf will be similar height to the standard carb, so my thoughts are a custom air box will be required with possibly a cone filter next to the current cold air intake. I still think the work involved with the side draft solution will be more overall.

I will get some dimensions of the Jenvey dcnf ones and just check before buying anything.

Thanks

Peter

Hi Peter,

Sounds like a very interesting 'cunning plan' and acquiring the parts by stealth is something I've been doing for the last ten years or so and can recommend that approach. The adaptor plate for the engine stand came back from the platers yesterday, so I'll make a mock up of it in sturdy cardboard and send it to you if you PM me your address.

Graham

First part bought other than the engines I already bought some time ago.

GC 3/A inlet camshaft from Gloria who inherited GCs business and is currently relocating it to Bedford where she lives.

I have also placed an order for a Mangoletsi dcnf inlet manifold, but delivery timeframe on that is very uncertain apparently.

In terms of tools just purchased a set of Moore and Wright micrometers and a low cost dial bore gauge. These are in anticipation of seeing how good the crank, exhaust cam and bores are on the engines I have.

Peter

Hi Peter always too late but just in case twin DCNF Manifold https://www.facebook.com/groups/34046697401/permalink/10159121550742402/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/34046697401/permalink/10159121550742402/)

Eric

Hi Eric

Thanks for the link. I will stick with the one I have ordered as hopefully will materialise and is a whole lot less expensive especially given the additional import charge chaos going on at the moment.

Peter

One subject I had not thought of before, but have been reading and watching about engine rebuilding and wondered what to use as an engine assembly lube/grease. The conclusion I have is that a specialist grease or gel is likely to give the best protection, especially if the engine is stored a while before starting. So any input on this subject would be welcomed, also does the same apply for the gearbox/diff?

Peter

Hi Peter

Plenty of good engine oil well distributed. There are 2 exceptions worth considering if you have new cams then specific Cam lube just before start up NOT when building the engine unless it will be started within a month of building. The second is using some moly grease in the oil pump to encourage priming. Again if left for long term storage without turning over it can harden adding un wanted strain. I do not use Moly Grease preferring to fill the cam boxes, coat the cams and spin the engine on the starter to prime the oil system.

Eric

Hi Eric

That is not what I expected you to say and appears to be in direct conflict with what I have read elsewhere.....

The general comment is do not use ordinary oil as it does not include enough Zinc and does not hang around on the bearings etc if stored, hence use a specific bearing lube (dissolvable in oil) if storing for a long time.

Others do say use a thicker oil than normal.

I can see the benefit of pre pressurising the oil system before trying to start it and would do that especially as fairly simple to do on this engine.

Peter

I did notice that the Project Binky chaps were using a lurid pink grease from a tube quite liberally when reassembling their Toyota engine.

Hi Graham

Curious what was used on your engine?

Peter

Hi Peter

I forget sometimes that other people have not had the misery of being trained in lubricant technology. By Zinc you mean ZDDP which is an agent that promotes oil film retention and metal to metal pre-lubrication. It has been reduced in some modern oils because it is hostile to catalytic convertors. It's advantage is at cold start and first start. But too much in a freshly built engine and you can face serious bedding in issues particularly the rings which need to wear into the bores to create a seal. This is why you start with good quality running in oil not the finest Synthetic you will switch to after running in.

If pre-lubes dry out from storage you get problems with blocked drillings and oil starvation issues. New cams MUST be given start up lube just before start up to protect the case hardening and they need to run at 2000 RPM for 5 to 10 minutes to bed in. With used cams I have used moly grease coating at first start up with no issues. I like the Kent Cam lube for new cams. It has all you need and is easy to get.

Some engines have designed in lubrication challenges so may need more start up lubricants. If you go this way the engines needs a regular turn over and warm dry storage just like with engine oil. But you also want to be doing a swap to fresh running in oil and new filter soon after the first run up to temperature holding 2000 RPM.

Ultimately you make your own scary decisions.

Eric  

Thanks Eric,
I wasn’t aware the ZDDP content was being reduced in oils to save cat converters. I’ve always liked that feature of modern lubricants. :(

Ian

Hi Peter,

I have to confess I am completely unaware of what was used on my engine build, but I'll ring Stanwood next week and find out what they use for engine reassembly lube.

Graham

Hi Peter,

Just rang Stanwood and they tell me that they use Lubriplate 105 as an assembly grease. Here's a link:

https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/Grease/Multi-Purpose-Greases/100-Series/NO-105/ (https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/Grease/Multi-Purpose-Greases/100-Series/NO-105/)

They stock it and will be happy to sell you a tube. Guy was always effusive in his admiration for Stanwood, and I have found them beyond reproach in all my dealings with them.

Cheers,

Graham

Hi Graham

Many thanks for info

Peter

Hi

I mentioned before, but here are some photos of tools purchased to help out with the engine.

First up is a set of Moore and Wright micrometers. These are used good condition ones, imperial, but happy to do the maths when needed. I did not fancy a set of the cheap Chinese ones as it appears they can be hit/miss on quality.

Next is a Chinese bore gauge. I really wanted this just to gauge how round the bores are and asses the best block and the need for rebore on the blocks I have. The machine shop can do the real accurate stuff.

Lastly a magnetic stand and a finger type dial gauge  (I have the rod type in the bore gauge). I bought this for the stand, but the dial gauge was only a little extra. Again my main reason for buying a cheap item was to give me an idea of variation, rather than anything which is super accurate.

Also on its way is a spring compression set, I already have the Fiat/Lancia tools for the shim replacement when that is needed.

Peter

After being told the twin dcnf inlet manifold from Mangoletsi may be a long time arriving by Rally Design, I had a nice surprise. I had ordered it a few weeks ago and surprisingly had a call to say it had arrived and did I still want it! The answer was yes of course and arrived here today. Very happy with it and the price was just over £200 delivered which given the price asked for Alquati versions second hand looks to be a bargain in my books. Now I have this, can start deciding when to order the Jenvey throttle bodies which are made to order, so will be another longer timeframe item.

On a different subject, had a quick play with the spring compressor which turned out to be not ideal, but usable. The problem was the part which presses against the top of the valve spring has a lip which was not quite large enough diameter to fit over it. So a bit of use with a cutter will be needed to open it out to fit. The other issue is the collets are tight fit in the top of the cap and hence need a tap to release after a fair amount of static pressure is exerted via the spring compressor. After a bit of trial and error I was confident to do the job repeatedly. I was practicing on a spare head, not the one I am hoping to use.

It makes a nice surprise when parts actually turn up ahead of time and at a decent price!

Hi Eric

Yes, I was surprised at the price given what folk were asking for second hand ones.

Peter

Whilst I was thinking about it, I wondered if anyone knows how GC configured the swinging gate in his last version of the sump baffle? I have seen photos of the modified sump, but that just shows the upper plates and does not show what went on below them. I note from his comments here

http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=3451 (http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=3451)

That this design was an improvement on the one currently sold by Mark (unless Mark has updated his and not the photos).

Peter

Hi Peter

I have a GC one, but it is installed with the whole engine resting on it. Maybe I have photos. I will have to check.

Eric

Hi All

I have read Graham’s thread on clutch replacements and Eric has suggested VX flywheel and associated clutch. However not having a VX flywheel and reading some of the comments it does appear careful choosing of clutch make rated for Delta HF turbo and using a standard 215mm flywheel which I have more than one may be the way to go. Anyone else have a comment or suggested supplier? I see Helix have a suitable one as do Spec, both at a significant price over the standard HF clutch kits.

Original thread

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3120.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3120.0)

Peter

Hi Peter

Budget plays a part here. You can get a new lightened steel flywheel and clutch from Helix and solve multiple problems although it will still need balancing with the crank.
Any cast iron Beta flywheel will need lightening, surface grinding and crank testing. Plus maybe ring gear replacement if it is burred.

There are dozens of suppliers of VX 8V Integrale size lightened flywheels BUT finding quality could be tricky.

If a flywheel or the bolts holding it fails it gets very messy quickly. So not a place for compromise or bodges unless you like the scenes in Wacky Races with the Buzz saw chopping through cars!

Years ago you could get 1600 HF Turbo flywheels and drill out the bolt holes to a larger size to get a lighter flywheel. They were rare then and now!

New bolts are essential as is using the spring plate behind the bolt heads.   

Eric

Peter

I think I have VX flywheel if you need one

Just throwing this out there as I haven’t got a VX and a standard 2.0 n/a flywheel to hand for measuring, but what are the differences between the two?

Is it mainly the size of the clutch which means the raised face for the center plate clamp area on the flywheel is larger and the bolt holes for the larger pressure plate are a different spacing?
If so, couldn’t a standard 2.0 n/a flywheel simply be re-faced and re-tapped for a 228mm clutch kit to fit? A quick easy job for a machining shop.

Or are the differences more significant so that a normally aspirated flywheel is physically smaller and cannot simply be machined to accept the larger clutch?

Ian

Hi Ian

Yes in theory but a bit messy practically because of the step on the flywheel face and the potential weakening of the flywheel from the extra holes is probably not worth the risk. VX flywheels are not that hard to find but will still need a surface grind and the right machining on the rear to lighten.

BTW if the lightening machining is not done correctly the cast iron flywheel will fail. See GC book for correct profiles. A new steel flywheel will be lighter and stronger.

Eric

PS you can get alloy flywheels with steel inserts, but I am not sure about their durability.

Hi Eric

So is the VX one steel unlike the standard one?

Peter

I have to admit that my choice of a VX flywheel and Thema Turbo 16V clutch was made largely on the grounds of cost, but also availability of parts further down the line. I was fortunate enough to get my crank and (VX) flywheel lightened and balanced by Guy Croft before his sad demise, and was also able to source a Thema Turbo 16V clutch at very reasonable cost. My reasoning was that if a clutch can handle the output of a spiky 201bhp Turbo engine, then it would have no problems with a far more docile normally aspirated 150-155bhp engine.

Manufacturers (for the most part) like to keep their stock inventory manageable and re-use or re-purpose parts wherever possible. I've upgraded motorcycles in very similar fashion, using parts off higher-spec models to freshen up and improve more lowly models in terms of engine, suspension and brakes at much lower cost than sourcing expensive aftermarket options. As long as you're not going for absolute top of the line spec then it's an approach that works well.

Hi Peter

The VX Steel Item comes already lightened cutting out one more job in building a performance engine.

Eric

Hi Eric

Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like the way to go.

Peter

Hi All

Long time since I posted on here. I decided to keep the Spider as original with its 1600 and this engine build is still going ahead, but the target is now the HPE. Although the engine build will be delayed, I decided as prices are going up to start buying parts. First up is an order on Jenvey for 2 off DCNF throttle bodies suitable for Bosch injectors. The injectors seem easy enough to come by and not sure which to buy yet. Eric has suggest 330cl EV14, but there are long and short bodies and have to do some mocking up to decide which to go for.

Hope to visit Alan over the coming weeks to collect a VX flywheel and Mark M has indicated he has an IE gearbox as the VX versions are thin on the ground which would have been my preferred option for diff ratio, but I think the IE one will do nicely.

Peter

This is an area for me to reconsider. New Cam lube just before start up remains a recommendation as does pre spin to prime before start up. However If building an engine that will sit for a long time assembly lube designed for the job is probably a sound idea given the engine will start on running in oil. You would not want to butter the engine in this build lube as you do want the bores to bed to the rings. It should NOT be used on the bores.

Eric 

Well, Jenvey quote made to order on the dcnf throttle bodies, so expected a month or so wait. no such luck ordered last week, shipped to me today, looking forward to getting them. Had a conversation re the spindle connection and they should be coming with appropriate linkage, will be interested seeing what they send.

Peter

Hi Peter

An exciting parcel!

Yep, arrived today, only slight issue is they sent for Pico injectors when I asked for Bosch. Not sure of the difference, but they are sending what I need to allow me to use them when I get around to buying the injectors.

Peter

Hi Peter

Very nice! Do you have airflow trumpets with the package? You would not want them high, but definitely you want a radius bell mouth input with a roll back on the lip. The need is not as extreme as for 45 DCOE where the original Weber trumpets belong in a museum and you want as wide a trumpet with roll back as you can fit. ITG and Pipercross are examples.

You want Throttle body bore size height above the trumpets to airbox lid as clearance as a rule of thumb. These things are about maximizing torque and throttle response with many hours of rolling road and dyno time invested.

Eric     

Hi Eric

No trumpets yet. I was hoping to go down the 3D printed route for the air box after I have sorted air cleaners, but the trumpet point is interesting and will influence the design and which filter to go for. Interestingly the throttle bodies are much lower in height than the original carb, so a bit more room for the air box and trumpets than I thought.

Peter

A few more bits arrived, this time from Vicks. The vernier wheels appear nicely made and are significantly cheaper than the others I have seen, even with the import VAT charged.

I also bought a new belt and freeze plugs.

Peter

I still love shiny bits! Even better when they are not too expensive.

Hi

A few more bits purchased, piston ring pliers and compressor and plastigage in anticipation of building the engine which is some way off yet….

Peter

The other week I picked up a VX flywheel from Alan, thanks for that. I had been looking for a clutch for the engine and based on Graham’s suggestion looked at Lancia Thema and Alfa 164 clutches. I knew I needed a 228mm one to suit the VX flywheel and that I would need to buy a clutch release bearing separately. So after much (too much as it happens) looking I placed an order with Autodoc. The clutch and bearing duly arrived and yes I managed to order the smaller 215mm clutch, idiot! I have to say that Autodoc are remarkably efficient in their returns and on applying and explaining via their online system and returns shipment via Parcelforce came through on email. Very impressed.

I also have had to return the fuel rail mounts to Jenvey as the ones supplied are for the Pico style injectors and I am planning to use Bosch EV14 compact style on Eric’s suggestion. They were also helpful in changing them out without hassle. I am in the process of ordering the injectors which vary in price a fair bit so we’ll worth shopping around as the ones I need are pretty common especially on US cars.

Hi

Still not ordered the clutch, but did get the correct fuel rail connection for the Bosch EV14 injectors from Jenvey.

Also ordered and received from Mark the sump kit to help oil surge.

Peter

Hi

I have spent so much time trying to sort out a clutch for this engine. The whole situation is way too confusing.

If I wanted one for the standard engine 1600 or 2l, no problem, but for the VX flywheel you need a 230mm pressure plate and yes there are various options, a lot are not in stock and some cheap options which I steered clear of. The end result was looking ideally for a Valeo combo. I focussed on Alfa 164 and Dedra/Thema compatible ones. The variation in price for the same parts and what appear to be similar parts one can only wonder at. The same part could be at least twice the price from different sellers, so a minefield. I ended up buying a QH kit QKT1467AF which is for a Thema. I am sure someone will advise me if a waste of money, but it fits the flywheel perfectly and is made by Valeo and was £129 for both parts.

Hi Peter,

I understand your frustration, as I experienced similar when trying to source essentially the same parts. If the clutch housing and pressure plate bolt up to the flywheel correctly I'd call it a win. I think the actual VX flywheel diameter is quoted as 228mm, as opposed to the 'standard' Beta's 215mm diameter.

I take it you will be getting the flywheel balanced to your crank? GC did mine, but I'm not sure if Gloria still offers that as a service. I suspect that Stanwood Engineering in Bawtry could do that for you (and I also suspect they may well have done mine).

Graham

Hi Graham

The plate is 228mm and the metal pressure plate is 230mm which is the same as the VX. There are a number of kits for Fiat/Lancia’s which have this dimension and are from the twin cam era. Interestingly as I think you noted some time ago, some of the Alfa 164s also use the same clutches.

This one fits nicely onto the lugs on the flywheel and the bolt holes align, as well as the plate fitting onto the gearbox input shaft.

My only real doubt on the different clutches is do they vary pressure wise and will this be too heavy for a cable clutch as opposed to a hydraulic one (did the Thema have cable or hydraulic?).

Also as far as the kits are concerned you get a thrust bearing which is useless for the Beta. This of course will vary the kit nos as thrust bearings vary, but the clutch itself may be common.

On the flywheel and other machining/balancing, I have decided to approach Stanwood to do it all as a one stop shop with previous knowledge and good reputation. They are not so far away from me either, as with you.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Ah, OK. I didn't measure the pressure plate so was unaware. The Thema and Alfa 164 share the same floor pan I believe and, being both owned by Fiat, a lot of other parts are common. I wouldn't be overly concerned about clutch pressure - I'm pretty sure that the uprated clutches on sale for Betas would have significantly higher pressures as well as different friction material. Not sure how Thema clutches were actuated. And yes, the release bearing is superfluous for a Beta. I'm sure someone in the Thema consortium could give it a good home...

Stanwood will do a top-notch job. GC was notoriously picky about suppliers and Stanwood handled large amounts of his sub-contracted out work.

Graham

Hi Peter,
Regarding the Thema/164 etc clutch in the Beta, you shouldn’t notice any difference in the pedal feel.
Although the clutch can handle more weight/power it isn’t any heavier under foot. I don’t know the exact physics of pressure plate operation but I think it’s to do with leverage ratio between the pressure plate and bearing. Because it is bigger in diameter, the length of the fingers that the bearing pushes on can give a slightly different lift ratio.

I use these clutches in my VX coupe and it feels the same as my Berlina with a 215mm clutch.

So no nasty heavy clutch worries lay ahead for you.

Ian

Hi Ian

Thanks for the info, puts my mind at rest although my main concern was the cable versus hydraulic, where with hydraulic you could get potentially a much greater pressure. It will be some time before I get chance to check it out…

Peter

Hi

Long time since I did any work on the engine, this was due to having bought an IE Coupe which was reported as smoking when put into storage 20+ years ago. I hoped that the engine would be a good candidate for this build and I have spent a few days over the last week stripping the engine down to its component parts. Not the most enjoyable job, it stinks of old oil. The good news however is that on first measurement the crank appears to have all good journals and the block does appear to be in decent condition, though guess it may need boring. The engine obviously was burning oil give the coating of black on the pistons and valves.

So happy with the result.

I realise I have also not updated this thread with some other purchases I made some time ago.

First up, although not strictly an engine part, is a VX gearbox, which has the all important for me, VX diff ratio to make motorway driving more pleasant.

Second up is an original VX head. This I will have to refurbish as it needs new everything, but was supplied with new guides and valves. My aim is to clean up the ports as per GC, but keep standard VX valves sizes. The inlet on the VX is slightly larger than the standard IE/2l one.

Peter

Again little progress, but did dig out the crank today’s and re measured the journals and all are as per GC book. I also dug out the bungs that seal the drilling’s for the oil ways again as per GC’s book and there was a significant amount of crud behind them.

Next job is to mod the mains oil ways, clean and polish the journals, again as per GC book. Then I need to get the replacement bungs sorted. Also need to have the block looked at to decide if the bores need taking out.

Peter

Following on from GCs advice on the crank preparation, the following have arrived, 7/16 UNC tap set, 7/16 grub screws (1/2 inch long), Loctite 542 to seal them and some cutting lubricant to aid the taps. Not expecting an easy job to tap the holes given the comment in GC’s book, but hope it works out without too much drama. I did buy a decent setup of taps, ie U.K. manufactured from U.K. supplier of taps and dies……

Peter

Hi Peter

Good Luck and take your time with the taps. The crank is nearly as hard as the taps making the risk of breaking one in place real.

Eric
PS not 1 grain of left over swarf is allowed in the crank. This is open heart surgery

Hi Eric

Thanks, yes I took the warning from GC seriously and given the availability of 2l cranks, do not want to screw it up.

Quite a revelation just how much crud there was behind the original bungs.

Will be starting on this journey today…..

Peter

Best of luck, Peter! Did you buy carbon steel or HSS taps? Not sure which would be better for the job - HSS is 'harder' but almost certainly more brittle.

Graham

Hi Graham

Good question, did not consider different material of tap, just wanted ones from decent supplier/manufacturer. They are advertised as HSS.

So far 2 down and 2 to go without any drama which is a great result. Should get the other 2 done this afternoon.

Peter

Hi

All 4 now done and very happy with the result. The crank will now go off to have a second opinion on the journals, then will get it thoroughly cleaned and then install the grub screws for the final time.

The job was not as bad as I had imagined. The main thing to look out for is that there is a lip approx 1/2” down the hole and the tap cannot go further than this, so the starter tap barely does anything other than clean the hole, the second creates a starter thread and the main work is done by the final bottoming tap. Again take care on how far down each tap goes, I marked the taps with a pen so I knew roughly when to expect it to go tight and did not force it or I would expect the tap to break.

Photo of grub screw installed temporarily.

Peter

Hi Peter,
If you find crud behind the original bugs, what is the function of these galleries?
Do they gradually build up swarf from normal engine running?

I'm thinking that this exercise may require crank balancing after checking and
polishing.

Great work and something I may get to eventually.

Nigel 

Hi Nigel

These holes are the entry for the cross drilling of the crank which allows oil to get from the main bearings to the big ends, but they need to be sealed up after the event or you would never get any oil pressure. The crud build up is purely a function of a dead end with oil and residue sitting in it when the engine is off.

As to balance, 100% needs to be done and in my case I am using a VX flywheel which needs refacing as well. After that will get the whole assembly with the clutch balanced.

Peter

Interesting thought - if an engine was maltreated with regards to engine oil changes (i.e. few or none), could there be a sufficient build up of crud to block or severely limit the oilways in the crank? GC did all this work on my crank. so I'm unaware of the level of crud build up in mine. Guy skimmed my VX flywheel and then balanced the fw and cranks as one. He provided mounting marks and instructions but didn't actually balance the clutch to the crank/fw. Where are you getting this work done?

Graham

Hi Graham

I was going to have a talk with the guy in Clay Cross you use as he is relatively local and you had good experience. Failing that I ha e been following a company on YouTube, Barum Engines, and it was them in an older video who suggested that balancing the clutch as well was worthwhile as they can vary in balance quite a bit, depends on the clutch assembly.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Yes I can definitely vouch for the quality of Jon's/Stanwood Engineering's work. I'm pretty sure that it was actually they who balanced my crank/fw, and GC just subbed it out. But like any good tradesman, they are booked up well ahead so best to get your name in the queue if you intend to use them. I've heard of Barum and seen some of their Youtube videos and they do seem to be good. Not heard any personal recommendations though. I've just spoken to Jon and they do offer crank + fw + clutch balancing. The assemblies are balanced individually first then balanced as a unit to finish.

Graham

Hi Graham

Having seen GC workshop I would say highly likely he did not have balancer, so your comment is probably correct. I am going to ring Jon and get in the queue….

Thanks

Peter

Rang Jon today, had a brief chat, he is tied up this next week, so have agreed to call week Monday and sort out a day to go over.

Peter

Good stuff. When you go to his place you'll see just how much work he has lined up. I feel guilty every time I ring him as I know I'm stopping him from getting on with the backlog. But it will be worth it...

Graham

Hi Graham

Yes, know what you mean having worked on my own for many years, most productive time was the 7:00-9:00 slot in the morning…

Peter

Visited John at Stanwood engineering today in Clay Cross. Nice guy and definitely feels like the person with the knowledge and experience I do not have. As a start he is going to face the VX flywheel, check the crank journals, pressure test the VX head and look at dowelling the inlet manifold to the head. On the block he suggested having it thoroughly cleaned and derusted which he does not do as he sold the tank etc he had to a company in Gainsborough, Racestoration. I therefore hit the road and the went over to them on my way back home. Another accommodating company, it should be ready by mid next week. All in all a positive experience. My work with John is in the queue, so not expecting any news soon!!

One other good recommendation John made was a rolling road where he takes his race car. They are MJB based in Brigg, North Lincs.

Peter,

Good stuff - glad to hear you were comfortable with giving Jon your parts to work on. If Guy Croft subbed work out to them, that's as good an endorsement as I've heard. I've got to ring Jon in early July and I might suggest that I take certain parts to Racestoration to speed things up. The rolling road recommendation is good to know as well; I'll bear that in mind for the future.

Graham

Hi Graham

I had been looking for a recommendation in the Lincs/Notts area and only heard of a couple, one being John Vessey in North Lincs, turns out MJB are the guys from Vessey who have setup on their own. From what Jon has said, they are happy with DTA ECUs, though would need to check before committing to one.

Peter

Another run around day…. Main reason was reverse of journey to collect block now all dipped/clean and deliver to Stanwood engineering for Jon to do his magic. Once we know what overbore size then I can get on with buying the pistons etc.

Peter

Peter,

It's very satisfying to see a manky old block restored to something like new. It'll look even better after Jon's finished with it...

Graham

Small thing, Mark brought along a nice shiny new water pump for me at the LMC weekend.

Peter

Did you get the stainless steel fixing kit too Peter?

Hi Guy

I bought that some time ago. I also had a spare water pump from years ago, but decided a nice shiny new one would suit the engine better. The old spare (new old stock) resides in the box of parts in the Boot of the Spider, just in case….

Peter

 Not much to report on the engine build at present other than the crank has been deemed good by Jon at Stanwood, but did not have time to collect it before we left for France.

I had been looking for high compression pistons, however Vicks have no stock or lead time and most I could find were forged and well beyond my budget or need for a road car. I then found a guy on Ebay Germany selling a set of +.4 ones. I arranged to have them sent to me in France and they arrived today. Interestingly they are for a Fiat Ritmo 1585 engine according to label and after Googling I see refs to them as being suitable for the 1995 engine, but obviously care should be taken on CR value etc. Not a cheap solution but came with rings and way cheaper than forged. Interestingly they are from an Argentinian manufacturer who I have never heard if, but who make a large selection of pistons.

One question I do have is what is the length of the rods for the 1995cc engine? Is it the same as for the 2l 131?

Peter

Hi Peter

Yes the Rods are the same length, but use 8V Forged Integrale items with an oil cheek grove machined in for piston spray. There are plenty of these available at reasonable money and you avoid having to make oval big end round or experience the big bang when old rods decide they have had enough!

Enjoy.

Eric 

Hi Eric

Ok, had a look for forged rods and not immediately obvious if all the rods advertised have this oil groove, is this standard for Integrale ones? also most seem to advertise as for 16V and need 16V shells, again is this the type you mean?

Any pointers would be useful. I see the cheapest rods around are the Chinese ones branded Maxpeedingrods which seem to be ok for general road use according to the forums I have read, but happy to go with a n other if that will give better peace of mind.

Thanks

Peter

Hi

No movement on the rods, still open to suggestions. Called at Stanwood today to drop off the pistons so he can check the bore sizes we need and to collect the crank which he checked for in tolerance as a check from someone used to it to confirm my measurements that it was ok.

Next was visiting Neil in Derby who has been selling off his VX cars and Beta parts. All the cars are now sold, but I was interested in the VX cylinder head he had left. On visiting I ended up buy a bunch of parts which looked to be useful…….

4 branch manifold, a lot of surface rust, but still very serviceable and will clean up nicely.
VX crank pulley
3 used alternators, I will most likely buy a new on, but useful to have a 65A one around to have as spare
4 brand new 43.5mm inlet valves for the VX head
New gear stick bearing
New gear linkage swivel arm
End of front ARB bush
Great condition battery tray
Accelerator pedal mounting bush
New clutch cable
New accelerator cable
Various gaskets
Mains bearings
Couple of misc coolant hoses.

Big thanks to Neil and really happy with the parts.

Peter

Hi Peter

On the Integrale Rods you will need to have grooves machined in the rod cheek where it meets the crank. This allows oil spray from the big ends to the piston underside. Remember the OE rods had drilled holes and shell bearings with holes. Integrale have oil spray jets, but this is a fiddly conversion that is not necessary. I copied the grooves on the GC supplied Cunningham Rods. I will try to find an image. I do not think 8V or 16V matters other than the shells are reversed in the big ends so get the bearings to go with the rods.

Hi Eric

Noted on the grooves.

Had a text yesterday saying Jon had tested my VX head and all appears ok, so I am going to collect and get it all cleaned up, fit new guides and valves in readiness for the next job which is cutting the valve seats.

I had hoped to find a set of bronze guides lurking in someones storage cabinet going spare, but ended up buying from AE Car (photo below of supplied). After talking with Jon we decided on bronze ones all round which replaced the original cast ones. I will need to make up some sort of tool to give consistent depth when I insert them.

Peter

Ok, decision made on the rods. I decided to go with the Maxpeeding rods. Three reasons, one was price, not expensive, second available from stock in U.K., ordered Friday, arrived Monday, lastly was confidence. I asked Jon at Stanwood what his thoughts were on them expecting a sharp intake of breathe etc. The exact opposite was the case based on his experience. He has a tuned engine in his Lotus race car and he bought second hand some Maxpeeding rods for it about 3 seasons ago, regularly goes towards 9000 rpm and has not missed a beat. So for my very modest needs they seem more than adequate. Interestingly bought direct from manufacturers website and have stock in U.K.

Just need to get some shells for them now as well as main bearing ones.

Photo also shows part nos.

Peter

Hi Peter

That sounds like a find! In build up check the rod clearance to the crankcase and strip down again to relief the with a die grinder if they are obviously close. Remember the crank does flex a little under load and speed. Some of the cheap Chinese rods had a very bulky profile that fouls.

Pleased to see no risks with old rods being taken.

Eric

Hi Eric

Thanks, will check. Also I remember the comment you said re the machining of slots in the big ends to help with oil spray for the little ends (see above). I noted Chris Mace recently posted on Facebook some photos which included the rods in his GC built engine and the slots were present on those.

Peter

Hi

Had a couple of hours this afternoon and decided to investigate the oil pumps I had. I had not realised the 1600 and 2l ones are quite so different. I am fortunate in having 3 of the 2l ones to compare. I managed to get a decent pump section which measured as per Haynes, the problem I came across was the pressure relief spring. Haynes quotes 44.4mm long where all three of the ones I have are within a fraction of a mm in length, but all around 43.5mm. The question is, is this a problem? I suspect not really given that this is a get out of jail valve if the oilway gets blocked.

Any views would be appreciated.

Peter

Hi Peter,

First I assume you realize 1600 sumps are also different to 2000 sumps? Think of this valve as maintaining the pressure and you realize it's length matters. You can shim it longer with a suitable washer and actually this is done the the standard correct size part when you add a large oil cooler. This is described in GCs books.

Eric 

Hi Eric

I did not realise they were different, new day, something new learnt. Is the shape or just the internals? I have the baffle kit from Mark to use.

Peter

Hi Peter,
Also the pumps have different length gears to give more flow. The 2.0l has bigger gears than the 1.6l and the Monte is bigger again.

Ian

Late on in the final run they standardised one pump and sump for all versions except VX. The VX pump is higher capacity than the rest.

Hi

Ok, understand, the one question that remains, is the outer shape of the sumps the same, just the internal baffling being changed?

Peter

I'm not sure but the main difference between pumps is the depth so I suspect it is mainly the height of the pan that varies.

Ok, I offered up the sump pan I was aiming to use onto a 2l block with 2l oil pump installed and yes it does not fit, ie it must be 1600 one, so went to my ‘storage facility’ for various oily parts probably not required, ie next to shed under plastic sheeting and recovered two sump pans. Both were 2l and yes they are approx 1cm or so deeper to cope with the additional pump height.

I think I will continue modding the 1600 and add it to the Spider as it is very noticeable that the oil pressure dips on cornering which has meant my spirited driving has had to be tempered to suit the engine, hopefully this baffled sump will restored some chuckability to the car without worrying every time…… the sump on the 1600 has to come off as there is a weeping of oil around part of the gasket.

I have picked the better of the two 2l ones and started cleaning, not my favourite job as as much oily muck on the outside as in.

Peter

Back to the crank after having it sitting around for many weeks. GC recommends putting a teardrop relief into the main journal oil feeds to the con rod journals (see his book for details). I did this with some trepidation and thankfully largely succeeded using a small oval shaped burr. Not the easiest job and I still have to make sure that there are no rough edges to wreck the bearings! GC recommended final polishing with Scotch-brite pads and oil. He used the grey ultra fine which I did not have, so ordered a couple and will post some photos with the finished job, hopefully looking all pristine.

Peter

Hi

A bit more work to do on the crank, so not yet finished, mainly cleaning before I put the new bungs in.

The other job that I have been on with for months, spending a bit of time on it every so often is tidying up the head and replacing the valve guides. The only other head I have modified was my old Mini head in the 70s, which went quite well given all I had was a couple of books by a guy called Clive Trickey (still have them). I had knocked out the old valve guides  and gleaning info from GC’s book, I set about tidying up the inlet and exhaust ports. The VX head has good sized ports already, so minimal amounts of metal needed removing is my understanding. After this a clean up of the chambers best I could without again removing much metal.

Then onto the valve guides. I sourced these bronze ones from AE Car (https://www.aecar.co.uk/ (https://www.aecar.co.uk/)) who also have various parts for the engine, bearings and head bolts etc. I discussed fitting of the guides with Jon at Stanwood and he gave me some useful pointers. First up was measuring the protrusion of the guide top from the head using a n other head. Having done this a suitable set of washers were found to give the correct amount. Also a set of washers were sorted to pack out the section on the guide where the valve stem seal fits. This was to avoid putting pressure on and hence damage to the that portion of the guide and to just put pressure on the shoulder below where the seal sits. Finally the same punch which I used to remove the old guides was to be used.

The next job was to make sure the holes where the guide fits was not too small for the new guides and hence cause the head to split when inserting it. Jon suggested approx 1 to 1.5 thou smaller than the guide diameter. I had bought a set of small diameter hole gauges which arrived damaged, but decided to go for a slightly more expensive and comprehensive set to hopefully get the holes as needed. All the holes were on the slightly small size thankfully and I used a small diameter flap wheel on a drill which was the perfect size for the 14mm hole to ‘hone’ out the hole to the size needed. After some cleaning to get rid of the dust etc, it was now time to see if I had got it correct.

It is interesting GC preferred installing the guides at room temp for both guide and head, just using lubrication, others suggest heating head or freezing guides. I decided the GC method sounded sensible and I proceeded with the first one with great trepidation…… I should not have worried as all went in ok, a couple were a little more tight than the others, but all went in ok. I used a hammer in preference to using the press as lining up the guides in the press would have been a pain and the amount of hammering was not excessive, unlike the original removal…..

So happy days, I now need to get a volume reading from the chambers as a start of working out the requirement to achieve the around 10.5:1 CR.

Peter

Hi Peter

Impressive work and more than I have ever attempted as I paid GC for this.

Eric

Jon at Stanwood has finally bored, honed and faced the block. A fair old wait to get this done, but at least now I can look to get it mounted on the stand and start dry building to see how it all fits together. Still have a bunch of things to be machined/balanced, but at least I can get on with some of the jobs I am down to do.