Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Transmission => Topic started by: mangocrazy on December 05, 2019, 06:03:46 PM



Title: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on December 05, 2019, 06:03:46 PM
Thinking ahead (instead of actually getting on with the work in hand), I'm coming round to the idea that whatever gearbox I use for the rebuilt and refreshed motor, I should really get the chosen one inspected and overhauled instead of just hoping it will be alright.

I vaguely remember a recommndation for a Fiat/Lancia workshop in Kent that specialise in gearboxes, but can't find the link. Can anyone recommend a firm that can do a proper overhaul of a Beta gearbox?

Thanks in advance,

Graham


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: betabuoy on December 06, 2019, 01:21:26 PM
Graham

Mine was done in 2013 by Nicol Transmissions uk ltd. Coppice Trading Estate, Stourport Rd, Kidderminster, DY11 7QY.  Tel: 01562 752651.

They stripped and rebuilt the gearbox replacing back pinion and input bearing. Total cost was 414 and its been excellent since.

Chris



Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on December 06, 2019, 04:01:36 PM
Thanks Chris. And Kidderminster isn't that far away from Stafford, which is where the motor and gearbox are currently.


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on December 13, 2019, 12:43:28 AM
A couple of weeks back I noticed a 'buy it now' advert for a Beta gearbox on ebay and thought I'd ask (more in hope than expectation) if it was a Volumex box. Imagine my surprise when the seller confirmed that it was! What made it even more unlikely was the price it was listed for - the princely sum of 45!

Today I drove down to London to collect the box and then took it straight to Day and White's unit at Brands Hatch for them to strip, inspect and renovate/refurbish it as required. John Day has has worked on hundreds of Betas over the years and raced them in the 80s and early 90s. He's promised to email me photos of the strip down and internals so I can see what the condition is. The seller never actually fitted the box to his Beta, but was assured by the former owner that it was in very good condition. Anyway - we'll see how accurate that statement was before too much longer.

It would have been tempting to just use it 'as is', but with an item of such unknown provenance it would have been very unwise, I think. At least it's in good hands now.



Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: peteracs on December 13, 2019, 09:51:15 AM
Hi Graham

Probably a wise move given Erics comments (I seem to remember) on a much earlier thread re gearboxes sitting for long periods in the oil and the gears degrading.

Peter


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on December 13, 2019, 11:43:13 AM
Hi Peter,

Yes, it's been proven to be the right move very quickly. Gay & White's emailed me this morning (I only dropped the box off at 2pm yesterday) with photos of the internals and in particular metallic swarf on the magnetic pick up. They will investigate further to find the source of the debris. Here are the pics they sent me.




Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on December 13, 2019, 12:21:26 PM
Just received a phone call from Day & White's as a follow up to the pics, and it appears that the swarf has come from a chipped reverse gear, which is something that should be fixable with available parts. If possible (and available) they propose replacing the input and output shaft bearings with new items, something I am very happy for them to do. If not, they say the bearings are in a perfectly acceptable state and should be fine, but if replacements are available it seems silly not to fit them

What is encouraging is the general state of the gear clusters. They are all well lubricated, free of any rust, contamination or deterioration, so that's my major worry put to rest. I have to say I'm very impressed with the speed and nature of their responses - I'm being kept fully informed and aware of developments. And the fact that the news I'm receiving from them is generally positive also helps...  ;D


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on December 13, 2019, 12:43:23 PM
Just received a follow-up email with photos showing very obvious chipping of teeth on reverse gear and complete strip down of clusters etc.

Very impressed with the way they are keeping me up to speed on developments.



Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: WestonE on December 24, 2019, 07:01:55 PM
Hi Graham

I have not been on here for a while. Are you sue that is a VX box? I would expect to see a double row bearing on one of the clusters and 5th gear fixed with a spline not a key way. Also the vent on the casing on a VX box is normally plastic. Time to read the numbers on the pinion and the crown wheel to confirm the final drive ratio.

Sorry I hope I am wrong.

Eric     


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on December 24, 2019, 07:26:03 PM
I've emailed Day and Whites, but realistically won't expect a reply until next week. I'll be feeling a bit stupid if this isn't a VX gearbox...

I also contacted the seller of the gearbox (who never actually fitted it into his car due to circumstances, just stored it in his garage) and this is what he said:

As I said I bought it off of a club member, and saw the car he was breaking & took the gearbox from and it was a Volumex.

I've no reason to doubt the seller, he seemed a very pleasant and genuine chap, but similarly Eric knows his way round Volumex engines and gearboxes better than anyone I know. So we'll have to wait and see I guess.


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on December 24, 2019, 11:22:01 PM
The fact that it has a 2000 sticker on it may be worrying, VX boxes have VX as an identifier stamped in red (if I recall correctly) on the casing (normally worn off though). Agree that vent is usually white plastic, not sure of internal differences although I know there are some upgrades


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on January 02, 2020, 02:56:42 PM
Well, as I feared, the forum knowledge was correct and the gearbox is from an i.e. The evidence pointed overwhelmingly in that direction, even if the seller was certain the box had come out of a VX. Gordon rang me this morning to give me the news, but held out a lifeline that it might be possible to source a more 'relaxed' fifth gear ratio from his man in Italy. He should know sometime next week. This would give me what I wanted - a top gear ratio that would make motorways/autoroutes more enjoyable.


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on January 02, 2020, 05:43:57 PM
My ie was very capable on the motorway and noticeably more relaxed in 5th than my 1300. I think a reconditioned ie box will be fine as is for what you need.


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on January 02, 2020, 06:08:42 PM
Well, as I feared, the forum knowledge was correct and the gearbox is from an i.e. The evidence pointed overwhelmingly in that direction, even if the seller was certain the box had come out of a VX. Gordon rang me this morning to give me the news, but held out a lifeline that it might be possible to source a more 'relaxed' fifth gear ratio from his man in Italy. He should know sometime next week. This would give me what I wanted - a top gear ratio that would make motorways/autoroutes more enjoyable.

There were two different ie gear ratios over the years if it's from a late one it might be reasonably high geared anyway.


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: WestonE on January 02, 2020, 06:32:09 PM
Hi Graham

Sorry and glad they have a potential solution. It might be better in the end because the VX box was relaxed even with 160ft lbs of torque. You need a lot of power to really use 5th gear in a VX box as it tops out at 160MPH!

Good luck and check the ratios referred to by Rossacorsa you might have accidently hit the jackpot

Eric   


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on January 02, 2020, 09:01:15 PM
Thanks for all the comments - an i.e. box certainly isn't the end of the world, particularly if it's the later version. As Eric points out, I may have been saved from myself here. We'll wait and see what the Italian Job can rustle up, but at least I know I have a solid gearbox to fit back into the car (when the engine is finally ready...)


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on January 02, 2020, 11:18:30 PM
Ok so being a sad case in thought I'd look this up

Early 2.0ie diff 3.786

Later 2.0ie diff 3.611 (most UK ones will be this I think)

VX diff 3.263

As Eric has said the VX box does take the edge off the go, I suspect that they had to ramp the gearing up on the VX to try to moderate the fuel consumption.



Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: peteracs on January 02, 2020, 11:32:28 PM
Hi

That makes sense, the early ie was simply the original carb 2000 and then obviously changed.

This thread gives both diff and gear ratios. I seem to remember that US diffs may have been different due to the reduction in engine power due to smog kit, I could of course be mistaken as it was a while ago I saw the topic discussed.

See

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2115.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2115.0)

Peter


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on January 02, 2020, 11:42:57 PM
Hi

That makes sense, the early ie was simply the original carb 2000 and then obviously changed.

This thread gives both diff and gear ratios. I seem to remember that US diffs may have been different due to the reduction in engine power due to smog kit, I could of course be mistaken as it was a while ago I saw the topic discussed.

See

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2115.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2115.0)

Peter

I suspect there might be a connection with changing to digiplex but could be wrong. I'm fairly sure that whilst it wasn't documented the digiplex ones (which also have a different injection ECU) are more powerful, witness the Autocar road test of a late model ie the performance was pretty damn good!


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on January 03, 2020, 01:28:54 PM
I'm definitely hoping that the one I have is the later i.e. box (18/65 - 3.611). I've emailed Gordon asking if he can establish which variant I have.


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on January 03, 2020, 02:58:36 PM
Just got this email back from Gordon:

You are definitely running a 14/53 (diff) and ratios approx
VXs were 19/63. Think it was the Trevi ies ran 18/65  sometimes/rarely found fitted
to Betas.
Your ratios approx after checking from marking
and counting input/output shaft:
1st- 3.5
2nd-2.3
3rd-1.55
4th-1.2
5th-0.92
R-3

Interesting observation about Trevi i.e. having the 18/65 gearbox...


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on January 03, 2020, 03:05:53 PM
Just got this email back from Gordon:

You are definitely running a 14/53 (diff) and ratios approx
VXs were 19/63. Think it was the Trevi ies ran 18/65  sometimes/rarely found fitted
to Betas.
Your ratios approx after checking from marking
and counting input/output shaft:
1st- 3.5
2nd-2.3
3rd-1.55
4th-1.2
5th-0.92
R-3

Interesting observation about Trevi i.e. having the 18/65 gearbox...

I'll check I have the rare 1984 issue tech data book will see what it says


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on January 03, 2020, 08:19:26 PM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/ptVHDsXfd240GikYQ9dC5w5TkTkdDDN3da7p8JN4V2l (https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/ptVHDsXfd240GikYQ9dC5w5TkTkdDDN3da7p8JN4V2l)

As you can see the ratio was changed in 82 around the time that the ie was introduced in the UK, I'd imagine only first stocks were the old gearing but given the bad stock rotation of the time registration date might be a poor guide. However this is a different set of ratios to even later cars (it appears).

here are the figures from the latest (1984) technical book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/IxuNJBI01OYVNXnxizQwVsi8Aw8yPl6may0QYbHPqjI (https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/IxuNJBI01OYVNXnxizQwVsi8Aw8yPl6may0QYbHPqjI)

No difference if its a Trevi, coup or HPE

I have to say that Beta technical changes are to say the least confusing!

Previous versions for comparison

https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/KpSft7NaV2jpxRkSFeNL8BLxjJpAsa4qrWoLf8AJaL (https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/KpSft7NaV2jpxRkSFeNL8BLxjJpAsa4qrWoLf8AJaL)

Volumex

https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/TcAPIcEyJi0lmL7TOO4YFc0PO1WEfh30QpkrnunKPxx (https://www.amazon.co.uk/photos/share/TcAPIcEyJi0lmL7TOO4YFc0PO1WEfh30QpkrnunKPxx)

I might check the microfiche if I'm in a real sad case mood one day....


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: mangocrazy on January 04, 2020, 03:13:18 PM
It really does seem to be lap of the gods as to which ratio box you got, back in the early 80s. Every source seems to tell a conflicting story. And then there's the 'received wisdom of the day' which may or may not be correct.


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on January 05, 2020, 04:19:01 AM
It really does seem to be lap of the gods as to which ratio box you got, back in the early 80s. Every source seems to tell a conflicting story. And then there's the 'received wisdom of the day' which may or may not be correct.

With Beta stuff there is a lot of heresay which becomes 'fact' the only way to be sure is to trawl the official info. It still causes arguments though  :D as people have their minds set for 30+ years. I possibly have more original Beta literature than anyone else in the UK, only possibly mind there is probably someone hiding away with more.... Anyone volunteering? I'd be interested to know


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: Nigel on January 07, 2020, 07:39:09 PM
Reading with supreme interest!

My 84 2000 Carb [manu Dec 83] from Australia has a white plastic breather, but any other
markings,except "Australia" in red, are gone.

Many clues appear to show that the car was built up using i.e. parts in the main, such as
the radiator + fan, and the fuel pump although the dash binnicle is an early,'no-green' version,showing only km's.

I guess i'll only know what i've got inside that aluminium casing when i'm
able to drive it!

Regards to all, Nige


Title: Re: Recommendations for gearbox overhaul specialist
Post by: rossocorsa on January 07, 2020, 09:43:41 PM
Reading with supreme interest!

My 84 2000 Carb [manu Dec 83] from Australia has a white plastic breather, but any other
markings,except "Australia" in red, are gone.

Many clues appear to show that the car was built up using i.e. parts in the main, such as
the radiator + fan, and the fuel pump although the dash binnicle is an early,'no-green' version,showing only km's.

I guess i'll only know what i've got inside that aluminium casing when i'm
able to drive it!

Regards to all, Nige

The 'ie parts' thing is more a case that we didn't get many late carb cars in the UK things like the rad and so on were changed for most versions possibly all but we didn't get them in the UK