Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Fuel System Carb => Topic started by: Gromit on December 10, 2017, 01:49:35 AM



Title: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on December 10, 2017, 01:49:35 AM
We have to remove the fuel tank of my father`s 79 S2 Coupe to repair cracks in the under-body box sections that support the front fuel tank mounting points.

The existing fuel tank inlet flexible rubber hose between the filler neck and the side of the tank is very spongy and probably not going to last much longer. I assume it is the original one although it seems to have more bends than strictly necessary.

Has anyone replaced their fuel tank filler hose? Any thoughts re sources to find a suitable replacement? The one on the car is a moulded type with several elbows. It seems a bit of a convoluted arrangement. I presume that original replacement ones will be hard to come by. Has anyone found a suitable alternative make or model substitute perhaps? Or do people just get a pipe bending magician to custom fabricate something out of metal? Can you buy the stuff by the metre with the correct diameter and get it to custom fit if it is sufficiently flexible? Or does it need to be moulded with the correctly located bends to fit?

I shall contact some local suppliers in Australia next week but thought I would tap into the collective forum brains trust first in case somebody has already found a good solution or supplier.

Cheers,
Andrew







Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: HFStuart on December 10, 2017, 11:20:35 AM
Interesting  - on my 78 Spider the filler hose is metal to about 10 cm of the tank and then joined by  straight piece of hose. I don't know what the Coupe is supposed to have but it would be off to have a metal piece for one version and rubber for another. Hopefully a couple expert can enlighten you.

Stuart


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: rossocorsa on December 10, 2017, 01:13:50 PM
Australia specific parts! See below
https://photos.app.goo.gl/R0plKfe26X55z85z1


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: HFStuart on December 10, 2017, 01:37:12 PM
Sometimes I'm amazed Lancia kept going as long as it did! Unless there's a legislative reason for the change why would you do that?

The best solution then is probably to get a steel filler from a euro spec car.


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: rossocorsa on December 10, 2017, 01:44:50 PM
Sometimes I'm amazed Lancia kept going as long as it did! Unless there's a legislative reason for the change why would you do that?

The best solution then is probably to get a steel filler from a euro spec car.

It'll be emissions legislation, something to do with restricting fuel vapour leaving the tank


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on December 10, 2017, 02:40:17 PM
Thank you for posting the Lancia parts catalogue fuel tank exploded diagram and part numbers rossocorsa. Much appreciated. :)

I noticed that there are two different part numbers specified for the filler hose (or sleeve as it is referred to in the parts catalogue): #82332076 for the Berlina/HPE and #82334090 for the Coupe. Presumably that means that there are two different versions of the filler hose with different dimensions for the Berlina/HPE and Coupe models? I`ll have a look under the Coupe tomorrow to see how closely the actual hose resembles the one in the exploded diagram.


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: peteracs on December 12, 2017, 12:14:07 AM
Looking at the catalogue, it looks like the whole fuel tank and pipe work are specific to the Australian version as my tank and pipes are somewhat simpler configuration.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on December 12, 2017, 02:22:50 AM
Here are some pics of the crack in the box section of the Coupe near the fuel tank front attachment points: driver`s side first, passenger side second and thirdly a pic of the existing fuel filler hose. The size and sag on the driver`s side crack looked much worse before the tank was supported with a piece of thick walled hose wedged against the centre of the rear cross member as a temporary fix.

Note wiring to priming electric fuel pump mounted above rear cross member mentioned in another thread (reply #12):

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3224.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3224.0)


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on December 12, 2017, 03:02:56 AM
Existing fuel filler hose pic would not fit in previous post. The Coupe hose does seem to be a different shape (pronounced U shape in middle section) to the HPE/Berlina one as shown in the fuel tank exploded diagram. So presumably they are distinctly different shaped hoses and not interchangeable as suggested by the different part numbers. Here it is:


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on December 12, 2017, 01:11:33 PM
I came across this filler hose purporting to be suitable for "Lancia Beta Coupe All" but the quoted OE Lancia part number is actually for the Berlina/HPE and not the Coupe as per the Australian Export variant parts catalogue extract kindly supplied by rossocorsa in this thread.

https://www.midwest-bayless.com/LANCIA-BETA-0_p-8112-82332076-oe-fuel-filler-neck-hose-lancia-beta-coupe-all-oe-nos.aspx (https://www.midwest-bayless.com/LANCIA-BETA-0_p-8112-82332076-oe-fuel-filler-neck-hose-lancia-beta-coupe-all-oe-nos.aspx)

In any case the $144.79(USD) asking price in the listing above is absurdly expensive. I think that we will probably end up making something fit out of one or two universal type fuel filler hoses with a straight section of metal pipe as needed. I have seen a few Gates fuel filler hoses of varying diameters and elbow configurations.

http://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/products/automotive/passenger-car-and-light-truck/fuel-system/45-degree-and-90-degree-fuel-fill-hose (http://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/products/automotive/passenger-car-and-light-truck/fuel-system/45-degree-and-90-degree-fuel-fill-hose)

Or perhaps even something like this corrugated hose if it is sufficiently flexible?

http://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/products/automotive/passenger-car-and-light-truck/fuel-system/fuel-fill-hose (http://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/products/automotive/passenger-car-and-light-truck/fuel-system/fuel-fill-hose)




Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: HFStuart on December 12, 2017, 01:16:33 PM
I wonder if that's a previous repair to the tank mounts that's given way.

They do tend to shear off if they're not undone with care


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on December 12, 2017, 01:24:35 PM
The crack on the driver`s side is in the under body box section not the mounting lug attached to the tank. The tank mounting lug on the passenger side does look a bit suspect though although the box section on that side is also definitely cracked.


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: peteracs on December 12, 2017, 03:52:10 PM
Hi

Any chance it was caused by a rear end shunt at some point in time?

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on December 12, 2017, 04:15:34 PM
The fuel tank got a rear end shunt from a Neanderthal with a truck trolley jack at an automotive brake servicing workshop when my father was living in Canberra some years ago. Apparently the idiot was planning to "jack up the diff" and managed to crash into the back of the tank with it before dad was able to intervene and tell him that it was a f*#king FWD car with no rear diff! That particular workshop had been run by a very competent foreman but apparently he left or retired and things went downhill rapidly staff competency wise. Needless to say the car never went back there after that fiasco. It put a dent in the back of the tank and perhaps might have been enough to bring about the start of the stress cracks in the box sections near the tank front mount points? Dad recounted this little historical legacy when we were trying to establish the cause of the cracking. Although the rear mounting points do not appear to have any cracking in the box sections.

The car has not been in any other road type accident during my father`s ownership (past 27 years), but I guess we don`t know definitively whether there was a rear shunt in the first decade of ownership by someone else.

There are also a couple of dents in the front driver`s side corner of the fuel tank, the origin and cause of which has not been established.

The car was shipped on a drive on covered (enclosed) transporter from Canberra to Adelaide back in 2011. They were a large professional car transporting company (CEVA) and there was no visible damage when it was unloaded in Adelaide (although we never gave it an under body inspection post delivery). The same company also transported the Fiat 124 Spyder without incident.


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on January 24, 2018, 08:50:37 PM
The Coupe is booked in for next Monday to have the fuel tank removed and those under body cracks repaired. The body shop manager recommended to us reckons it is caused by metal fatigue based on the pictures I sent him so hopefully no nasty surprises when they get to work, remove the fuel tank and start scraping away the body deadener on the affected area. They are going to weld up the cracks and then weld in a strengthening plate over the affected areas.

We will fit a new sender unit (sourced from angelom) when the tank is reinstalled . The workshop people are going to replace the fuel lines between the tank and engine bay as they are the original ones. They are tricky to replace I gather where they go through the under body box section.

I have not been able to find a new replacement fuel filler neck hose. I can get a used one from USA but it is expensive to source and return if it is not up to scratch. This is the hose fitted to the Coupe:

https://www.midwest-bayless.com/LANCIA-BETA-0_p-8113-fuel-filler-neck-hose-lancia-beta-coupe-zagato-all-u8.aspx (https://www.midwest-bayless.com/LANCIA-BETA-0_p-8113-fuel-filler-neck-hose-lancia-beta-coupe-zagato-all-u8.aspx)

It is not painted gold! That is just an artefact of the artificial lighting used to take the photo apparently.

I think the Beta Coupe filler hose ID is 43mm (according to Matt at Midwest Bayless in the USA who measured it for me). I found this US site with some possible options with that approximate ID:

http://www.fillernecksupply.com/1-3-4-or-44mm-diameter-gas-tank-hose/ (http://www.fillernecksupply.com/1-3-4-or-44mm-diameter-gas-tank-hose/)

I was impressed with this new type of ultra flexible filler hose for custom applications:

http://www.fillernecksupply.com/1-3-4-inch-41-mm-id-flexible-fuel-filler-neck-gas-tank-hose-gasoline-diesel-85-ethanol/ (http://www.fillernecksupply.com/1-3-4-inch-41-mm-id-flexible-fuel-filler-neck-gas-tank-hose-gasoline-diesel-85-ethanol/)

I wondered whether one of those ultra flexible hoses above attached at the tank end, then attached to another of the same flexible hose via short length of straight metal pipe, (or even just a metal joiner if the combined two hose length is adequate to reach the metal filler neck pipe), might work as an effective replacement.

It means there would be two extra clamped connections over the original moulded rubber version. Anyway all that (or some other alternative) will have to be fitted later.




Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on January 30, 2018, 11:23:41 AM
Fuel tank has been removed and cracks in rear box section rails at fuel tank front mounting points exposed in preparation for welding up and covering with a strengthening plate. No structural rust evident! ;D

No need to replace the fuel lines from the tank apparently: they are not frayed or perished.


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: peteracs on January 31, 2018, 12:36:19 AM
Hi

On the subject of flexible fuel hoses, if they are recent quality ones then no worries. I am assuming Oz petrol is like ours here with a higher amount of Ethanol etc than previously, if they are old pipes then they may look ok, but there are horror stories of pipes degrading significantly quickly. If in doubt I would change them as way too close to the exhaust etc to take a risk I would suggest.

Just my 2 penny worth....

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on January 31, 2018, 06:44:40 AM
Hi Peter,

Thanks for posting. I was the one pushing for the fuel lines to be replaced and I share your concerns. My concerns were based on the age of the original hoses that have never been replaced at the rear of the car from the fuel tank up to the engine bay. Apparently the Italian mechanic, (he was one of a half dozen factory trained mechanics brought out to Australia by the local Fiat/Lancia distributor to service these cars), who used to do most of the mechanical work on my father`s car had a hissy fit when dad asked him to replace the fuel lines back to the tank years ago, because he was worried he might not be able to thread the new hose through the box section cavity successfully. He was never very keen on the trickier jobs!

There are clear labelling laws with regards to petrol sold in Australia containing ethanol. My understanding is that petrol containing ethanol, (defined as >1% ethanol), must be clearly labelled as such at the point of sale. All petrol stations in Australia sell ethanol free petrol (or 99% ethanol free I guess) and some sell E10 (petrol containing up to 10% ethanol as well).

http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/ethanol-e10 (http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/ethanol-e10)

http://www.environment.gov.au/archive/fuelquality/publications/labelling.html (http://www.environment.gov.au/archive/fuelquality/publications/labelling.html)

That said there are plenty of unscrupulous operators out there when it comes to petrol distribution and retailing. As usual the fuel testing that does take place by regulatory authorities is probably infrequent and inadequate. I know there were scandals years ago about all sorts of solvents being blended into petrol in Australia to improve the profit margins for dodgy sellers.  

We only use Premium Shell V-Power petrol in the Lancia Beta Coupe. Hopefully that largely eliminates any risk of contamination from ethanol or other dodgy additives. It is also supposed to help clean the combustion chamber and carburation system. It also runs better on 98RON fuel! I have been told that it is also more stable in the fuel tank if the car is used infrequently and is less likely or slower to break down and deposit waxes etc in the tank.

So hopefully the fuel hoses have not been exposed to ethanol based on the above but there are no absolute guarantees on that score. I agree it would be prudent to replace those original fuel lines, especially the main supply and return line from and to the tank. I`ll talk to my father about this again. Do you have any links to threads on here about hoses that have failed even though they appeared ok? They might help persuade him to get the hoses renewed! :-[









Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: Gromit on January 31, 2018, 06:56:37 AM
Welded in strengthening plates FYI:



Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: peteracs on January 31, 2018, 08:49:18 AM
Hi

I assume the main runs are metal pipes, the issues are with the rubber ones which are usually short interconnects, i.e. tank and carb connections, the metal ones should be fine, so should be a straight forward job to replace.

I will dig out some info for you.

Good points about the higher rated fuel, worth considering here as well. I have never looked into the percentage mix of those here.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: peteracs on January 31, 2018, 11:41:25 PM
A bit of Googling will bring up various anecdotal reports, here is one such

http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/topic/98338-rubber-fuel-pipe/ (http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/topic/98338-rubber-fuel-pipe/)

I have read ones where the modern fuel mix has rotted pipes out within 6 months.

All the best

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: peteracs on February 01, 2018, 09:58:41 AM
Hi

Also an interesting article published back in 2009 which I came across.

https://www.hagerty.com/Articles-Videos/Articles/2009/09/02/Safe-at-the-Pump (https://www.hagerty.com/Articles-Videos/Articles/2009/09/02/Safe-at-the-Pump)

Peter


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: squiglyzigly on March 04, 2018, 11:44:04 AM
Re: fuel pipes. I recently discovered to my dismay that the alleged high quality silicon fuel lines, are in my opinion Ďnot fit for purpose Ď. I found out the hard way when recently finishing the  restoration on my Beta coupe. I replaced every fuel line and hose on the car using original spec cotton braided hose in some places and silicon in others. The smell of fuel was overwhelming. After trial and error I discovered that Silicon hoses Ďbreathí regardless of the superior quality claims made by manufacturers and sellers. It was truly unbearable.
All silicon now replaced with quality gates fuel hoses and problem solved.

The other thing I noticed with your chassis rail problem is the lack of spacers between the fuel tank and the chassis. Iím pretty sure when I dropped my tank last year there where large thick spacers between the tank and the chassis. I think they are aimed at spreading the weight of the tank against a larger surface area on the chassis rail to prevent the problem youíve just had of pulling the studs out of the chassis rail.
The spacers on my car where something like 4mm thick 20mm in diameter. (Iíve not measured this, just from memory).  Without them I think the rubber foam seal around the sender is pushing the tank down even harder against the mounting studs. 

Has anyone else got these spacers fitted.

All the best
Ian


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: LanciaDave on February 02, 2019, 10:02:13 AM
Yes. I have dropped the tank on Zagato (Spyder), Sedan, and at least 2 HPE's and all have had these extra thick washers/spacers underneath the angle brackets on either side that secure the tank.
Also thanks for the tip on the silicone fuel hose.
Has anyone found a source for the rubber filler hose? (that isn't $150 or too mickey moused)


Title: Re: Replacement fuel tank filler hose for Coupe
Post by: squiglyzigly on February 05, 2019, 07:04:07 PM
I found a gates fuel hose that was for another vehicle (sorry I canít remember what it fitted) and cut it down. It was a quality rubber hose of the correct diameter and not based on silicon. Itís out there and made by Gates.