Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Engine => Topic started by: WestonE on January 05, 2017, 06:38:04 PM



Title: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on January 05, 2017, 06:38:04 PM
This is just to let you know I am working directly with Cometic developing MLS (Multi Layer Steel) Gaskets for the Montecarlo/Beta engine. MLS Gasket are a huge step forward in gasket technology over even the best resin options currently available and they are used on all modern Turbo diesel engines which have to survive huge pressures for very high mileage.

I will have the Mylar design template back in January for adjustment/checking then pricing and availability will be confirmed.

These gasket are NOT the same as the reverse port head Cometic MLS gaskets and they will be in 2 forms i.e. normal and high compression 1.5mm thick form. They will allow reliable engine builds up to high pressure turbo charged builds and options for higher compression without new pistons.

Watch this space.

Eric     


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: mangocrazy on January 06, 2017, 04:09:55 PM
Excellent stuff, Eric. I presume that one of these gaskets when available would be suitable for my modest N/A Spider engine rebuild?

Graham


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on January 07, 2017, 10:33:05 AM
Hi Graham

Yes indeed provided you have a faced block, clean flat head face and have carefully cleaned out the head bolt threads in the block. The other must do is to have a top rail heater pass through or H section in the heater pipes. This removes the heater off limited flow at number 4 cylinder end of the head flaw that Fiat Lancia removed themselves on Beta IE VX Strada and Deltas.
Obviously new bolts or studs are required and stretch bolts from Tipo Diesel/ Integrale work with MLS gaskets as will GC's 12.9 bolts or Delta Parts 10mm ARP studs.

People hoping to "Get Away With" using a new gasket with a warped head and or dirty/ corroded heads and blocks and old bolts in corroded block threads will end up having to do it all again properly. I am making the point here because some people still think a cheap eBay resin gasket with the old head bolts and a quick scrape of the head and block will do.   

You will be fine because you are doing it properly.

Eric         


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: peteracs on January 07, 2017, 01:40:46 PM
Hi Eric

Tell me more about this mod please, as was not aware of the issue and should I do it to my stock 1.6?

Peter


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: mangocrazy on January 07, 2017, 03:56:21 PM
Hi Graham

Yes indeed provided you have a faced block, clean flat head face and have carefully cleaned out the head bolt threads in the block. The other must do is to have a top rail heater pass through or H section in the heater pipes. This removes the heater off limited flow at number 4 cylinder end of the head flaw that Fiat Lancia removed themselves on Beta IE VX Strada and Deltas.
Obviously new bolts or studs are required and stretch bolts from Tipo Diesel/ Integrale work with MLS gaskets as will GC's 12.9 bolts or Delta Parts 10mm ARP studs.

People hoping to "Get Away With" using a new gasket with a warped head and or dirty/ corroded heads and blocks and old bolts in corroded block threads will end up having to do it all again properly. I am making the point here because some people still think a cheap eBay resin gasket with the old head bolts and a quick scrape of the head and block will do.   

You will be fine because you are doing it properly.

Eric         
Yes, I don't intend to cut corners. It will be done to GC standard, even if GC isn't doing all the work (mainly because I don't think I can afford him to). He will do all the crank and flywheel prep, I'll get the block hot-washed and will clean out all threads, renew all studs and get the block and head checked for flatness. I'll be using new GC head bolts and washers and will do the fuel pump cam lobe mod myself. In fact I'll do as much as I can myself as long as it doesn't compromise the integrity of the build.


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on January 07, 2017, 04:49:51 PM
Hi Graham

I am glad to hear it will be done properly. Please get the block faced when it is being re-bored. They will not take much off and you will have a smooth flat gasket surface.

Eric


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on January 07, 2017, 05:04:06 PM
Hi Peter

Early Beta and Montecarlo engines have a cooling system design fault that means unless you are using the heater there is not enough flow through the cylinder head at number 4 end. This is why you will see gaskets with very large coolant metering holes at the number 4 end. But this is not the solution in reality. Obviously most people prefer not to have the heater on in the summer which leads to overheating at number 4 end and blown head gaskets.

Most people probably do not understand that the coolant holes in the head gasket meter the volume and distribution of coolant flow. If you look at a gasket you will see bigger holes on the exhaust side and gradually larger holes the further you get from the pump end. This is one reason why reverse head gaskets can be an issue because they have too much cooling on the inlet side and not enough on the exhaust side if used on our engines.

On Beta IEs and VXs you will see the heater feed pipe goes into the top rail and out again not straight from the head at number 4 cylinder to the heater tap. You can either copy this on the earlier beta top rail, get a later one or fit an H section joiner between the 2 heater pipes close to where they go through the bulkhead. The heater will still work fine and the head will be properly cooled at both ends. 

On my Monte I use a 16mm H section with nylon fittings from Car Builder Solutions.

Eric       


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: peteracs on January 07, 2017, 06:31:10 PM
Thanks for that Eric, I had never heard of that issue, may as well mod mine as I put it all back together. I have a later top rail which came from an IE I understand.

All the best

Peter


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: mangocrazy on January 07, 2017, 07:52:38 PM
Hi Graham

I am glad to hear it will be done properly. Please get the block faced when it is being re-bored. They will not take much off and you will have a smooth flat gasket surface.

Eric

Certainly will do, Eric.


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: HFStuart on January 07, 2017, 09:43:35 PM
Eric,

Will these suite 85mm bores?


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on January 08, 2017, 10:06:16 AM
Stuart

Yes not least because I have 85mm bores on my Montecarlo!

Eric


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on January 22, 2017, 09:40:39 AM
Just an update to say I have received reviewed and made minor corrections to the design Mylar. It will now be sent back to Cometic next week and travels to the US for production in early February so hopefully pricing and availability soon.

I hope Mark Wastnidge and Monte Servicing and Repair will be able to act as suppliers for these.

When I have pricing I will put up a group buy/ who wants one post.

Eric   


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: peteracs on February 23, 2017, 08:51:52 AM
Hi Peter

On my Monte I use a 16mm H section with nylon fittings from Car Builder Solutions.

Eric       

Hi Eric

Had a quick look at this and could not spot the H connector on their site, but would it make sense to use a pair of T section connectors for the feed and return of the heater as they are much more available and would provide the same open return circuit if the heater valve is closed and when open provide a decent path for the hot coolant?

Peter


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on February 24, 2017, 08:29:37 AM
Hi Peter

I am sorry for my sloppy description I made the H piece from 2 x nylon T pieces with a short length of silicon hose connecting them. I also tried making this part in 15 mm copper tubing but I preferred the look of the black nylon and silicon hose solution.

Eric


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: peteracs on February 24, 2017, 04:40:12 PM
Hi Eric

Ah, that makes sense and what I was going to do. Siting of the two T pieces near the bulkhead also makes sense as the original pipe is fairly straight there. Just need to make sure that the exhaust manifold is well wrapped, which needs doing anyway to protect the rack gaiters.

Peter


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on February 25, 2017, 09:25:52 AM
Peter

Could you post a picture of your fabrications when done?

Neil


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on April 09, 2017, 10:56:10 AM
OK Beta Fans

The sun is out and I have the first ever production MLS gasket for our cars and it is a thing of beauty. They will cost 120 each plus delivery. For now contact me to acquire one 1.7mm for standard compression 1.5mm for typically 1 point higher on compression e.g. 10:1 to 11:1.

A couple of pictures attached.

   


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: peteracs on April 09, 2017, 12:39:27 PM
Peter

Could you post a picture of your fabrications when done?

Neil

Hi Neil

I will do, not quite finished it yet, lawnmower fix diverted attention....

Peter


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: HFStuart on April 09, 2017, 02:15:19 PM
Eric,

Engine porn....

Anyway do you know that the compressed thickness of each will be ? I want to do some sums to give me something to look forward to while I'm getting it back on the road.

I've had gaskets before that have squished by 50% and it makes a mockery of trying to the CR calcs!



Stuart


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on April 09, 2017, 03:55:13 PM
Hi Stuart

1.5mm and 1.7mm are compressed thickness and they are accurate due to being made of spring steel and stainless steel.

Cheers

Eric


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on April 13, 2017, 10:10:30 AM
Beta Fans

If you would like one or more of these gaskets by the end of May I need your order by the end of April stating how many and what thickness. Payment will be by bank transfer to me to include 7 P&P for the UK. Please PM me with your delivery details. I hope that is clear?

You will need to install a heater pipes H section and use new head bolts/ studs I will help with torque settings. These gaskets can be re-used if installed correctly. They must NEVER be re-torqued hot.

Thank you

Eric   


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: Deltona on November 20, 2017, 07:11:49 PM
Just an update to say I have received reviewed and made minor corrections to the design Mylar. It will now be sent back to Cometic next week and travels to the US for production in early February so hopefully pricing and availability soon.

Eric   

Who or what is 'Mylar' and who is the UK outlet for Cometic please?


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: mangocrazy on November 20, 2017, 10:55:56 PM
If you want a Cometic head gasket for a Beta, then Eric (WestonE) is your man...


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: Deltona on November 21, 2017, 04:46:18 PM
No it isn't for a Beta, I just wanted to know where their UK outlet was, but it's ok, I've found out now.


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: Deltona on November 24, 2017, 12:16:10 PM
1.7mm for standard compression 1.5mm for typically 1 point higher on compression e.g. 10:1 to 11:1
  

I think there is something amiss there, but as the vital parts of the equation missing I can't check.
.2mm difference shouldn't give a whole point in CR?


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on November 24, 2017, 07:06:53 PM
CR should be calculated by measuring all of the components in the individual engine and applying the formula which is extensively published on the internet. It gets much harder to do with domed pistons of course unless you have the dome area supplied by the maker. Gasket thickness has move impact than most people realise, but then deck height is also frequently not properly considered. There is also squish to be considered with pressure charged applications where it can help to reduce detonation at the expense of cross port flow.

If you want a Cometic MLS Gasket for a reverse head engine you need the Delta versions available from Delta parts/ Burton Power/ Demon Tweeks and others or you will find the coolant metering holes making the inlet side too cold and overheating the exhaust valves on the other side.

I spent many careful weeks working with Cometic to develop these gaskets to help my extreme Volumetrico Supercharged Montecarlo engine build. In the process Beta owners have the opportunity to use a vastly better head gasket.

Eric     


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: Deltona on November 25, 2017, 01:17:38 AM
Lets do the maths on an engine where the pistons are 1mm proud of the block at TDC and:
85mm bore
85mm gasket
Combustion chamber volume 50cc
90 stroke
Flat top piston (no valve cut outs to keep it simple)

With a 1.7 gasket we get a CR of 10.46
With a 1.9 gasket we get a CR of 10.26



Now lets add a domed piston where the dome is 10cc in volume:

With a 1.7 gasket we get a CR of 12.61
With a 1.9 gasket we get a CR of 12.32

Here we can see that there would be 0.1 difference in the results from a dome to a flat top therefore a 0.2 difference in HG thickness gives an increase of between .2 and .3 in CR.

You wit' me?


Title: Re: Cometic MLS Head Gaskets
Post by: WestonE on December 09, 2017, 05:11:48 PM
OK happy engine builders just in case you did not know you need to measure CR in building your performance engine try this for a guide to how

http://blog.jepistons.com/how-to-calculate-engine-compression-ratio-and-displacement (http://blog.jepistons.com/how-to-calculate-engine-compression-ratio-and-displacement)

Note the importance of the block deck height and combustion chamber volume and how these can vary with skimming in refurbishment.
 
please also consider piston to head and piston to valve clearances verified by dry build checks as nicely described in all generations of Guy Crofts books.

Enjoy

Eric