Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Transmission => Topic started by: smithymc on December 26, 2015, 12:59:43 PM



Title: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: smithymc on December 26, 2015, 12:59:43 PM
Merry Christmas all!

I think the clutch is getting a bit thin on mine at 25000 miles. Does this seem rational?. I know I have got 180k out of a clutch on my modern, but seem to recall they didn't last too well back in the old days.

Any ideas on a source and will this fit?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LANCIA-FULVIA-BETA-NEW-CLUTCH-KIT-/281478010504?hash=item4189659688:g:7JQAAOSwajVUTBN5 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LANCIA-FULVIA-BETA-NEW-CLUTCH-KIT-/281478010504?hash=item4189659688:g:7JQAAOSwajVUTBN5)

Thanks

Mark


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on December 27, 2015, 09:41:50 AM
Unless the Lime's original owner was a 'clutch rider' there's no way it should be on it's way out at 25K. Have you checked the adjustment? It can be quite sensitive and won't feel right if it is out. I've also heard of clutch plates acquiring a glaze after long lay ups which can make them slip. It wears off eventually I think.

I don't like that ebay add; 'Beta...1969 0n'??? Fairly sure that the Beta doesn't share clutch components with the Fulvia?


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: peteracs on December 27, 2015, 10:34:55 AM
Neil/Mark

Could it be for the Series 1 Beta as that was 1400 and 1600 and possibly different spec?

I will dig out my parts books for the two and compare p/ns

Peter


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2015, 10:38:30 AM
Some Betas use the same driven plate as fulvia, not sure about the cover but fairly certain the release bearing is different.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: smithymc on December 27, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
Thanks chaps. That Fulvia ref made me wonder too.

There's clearly a bit of corrosion I can hear too, probably due to the wet/ mild weather, so may be that I'm worrying prematurely. Might still be an idea to get a decent item and bearing on the shelf though.

Mark


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2015, 11:59:59 AM
Release bearings can be slightly difficult the rest should be readily available. Release bearings turn up nos on eBay fairly regularly and its probably the cheapest source plus nos are probably better quality than new that might be Chinese. The 1600 released bearing is smaller than the 2 litre one although whilst not 100% certain they probably both fit


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2015, 12:11:34 PM
URL: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=400992523379&alt=web (http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=400992523379&alt=web)


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: smithymc on December 27, 2015, 01:35:34 PM
That's a coincidence- same bloke as is selling the clutch kit and it's about a mile across country from our house!

Mark


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: thecolonel on December 30, 2015, 11:33:36 AM
May be worth opening the release bearing case and checking the actual bearing number, many are the same
I have replaced the internal bearing on
various release bearings when a complete replacement is not available.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 06, 2016, 10:42:02 AM
My apologies for dragging this topic slightly off-topic, and please excuse my ignorance as I've never actually done this on a car before (done it on lots of motorbikes...), but when one splits the engine and gearbox to get at the clutch is it necessary or desirable to drain the engine and/or gearbox oil?

I'm guessing the answer is no, as long as the crank and gearbox oil seals are doing their job, but thought it best to ask...


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: WestonE on January 06, 2016, 01:39:30 PM
Graham

No need to drain oil from either and I suggest reading the steps in the Haynes Beta manual to control the panic/ understand the order and tools required.

Enjoy

Eric
NB both gearbox and engine are heavy and must be properly supported to keep your fingers and toes where they should be.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 06, 2016, 06:35:41 PM
Thanks Eric. I was intending to get both engine and gearbox properly supported on wooden blocks (possibly make up a V-block for the gearbox) prior to doing anything. I like my fingers and toes just how they are... :)


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 30, 2016, 05:17:10 PM
I've finally got round to making up a dolly to support the gearbox and bell housing, and raised the whole engine/gearbox assembly up on blocks of stout timber under the sump. Then I introduced the dolly under the gearbox/bell housing and wedged that in place with more pieces of timber so the gearbox is supported along most of its length.

I removed the starter motor and solenoid, and then undid the four large bolts holding the engine to the bell housing and started to pry the two apart with judicious use of a crowbar. I've got the engine and bell housing apart to the tune of about 15-20mm, but that's as far as they'll go. There's still movement when I lever on the crowbar but as soon as pressure is released everything returns to its former position.

Have I missed something? The Haynes manual dismisses the whole process in a paragraph or two, as if it's a non-event... The only thing that did occur to me is where the Haynes manual earlier mentions 'Remove the four small bolts which hold the flywheel cover plate in position. It is far easier to remove the cover plate before the engine is removed from the car'. Would this have any bearing on the situation?

Right now I've pretty much given up for the day. The garage I'm working in has no lighting and everything is being done by daylight coming in through the garage door. Or not...


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: rossocorsa on January 30, 2016, 05:32:18 PM
Have you undone the gearbox mounting at the rear of subframe near the bulkhead


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 30, 2016, 05:45:36 PM
The engine/gearbox is sitting on blocks on the garage floor, and is not attached to anything.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: rossocorsa on January 30, 2016, 05:50:11 PM
Not easy that way have you removed the thin metal guard they hinder removal if box is on the floor


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: rossocorsa on January 30, 2016, 05:56:03 PM
(http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww247/rossocorsa/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-01/IMG_20160130_165337.jpg)


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 30, 2016, 06:27:50 PM
Ah, OK. Now I understand. That thin metal plate (the bottom one) that's mentioned in the Haynes manual is the one I need to remove. And as you say, It's going to be a right t**t to remove as things stand. Bugger. The top one shouldn't pose too much of a problem, hopefully.

Thanks for the exploded diagram, that makes it much more understandable.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 30, 2016, 07:03:21 PM
Cheers, rossocorsa! Just returned from the garage and with those 4 10mm bolts and the plate removed, the engine and belll housing separated effortlessly. My cheap Aldi 10mm ratchet spanner is my new best friend... :)


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: WestonE on January 31, 2016, 10:34:06 AM
Graham

Make sure you use a clutch alignment tool when you fit your new clutch so the friction plate is centred and do NOT hang the gearbox off the clutch driven plate when you are putting it back together. If you decide the exiting clutch is usable brake cleaner to clean it is wise. beware any cleaners with anti rust in them because it is a lubricant that will stay in the clutch friction material.

Enjoy

Eric


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 31, 2016, 12:19:08 PM
Thanks Eric, that answered my next question; re clutch alignment when fitting. I noticed the Haynes manual mentioned a mandrel; I guess the two are synonymous. The gearbox is on a dolly and chocked up with pieces of wood, so should mate up almost exactly when pushed back onto the engine. Hopefully, anyway.

I'll know more when I've got the clutch off, but I was thinking of renewing the driven plate in any case, as they're cheap and it seems silly not to. Thanks for the tip about brake cleaner; I'll check the 'ingredients'.

With regard to the clutch release bearing, would it be wise to replace that at the same time? When I pulled the clutch lever in on the bell housing and waggled the release bearing there did seem a fair amount of slop in the assembly. Is that normal?


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 31, 2016, 06:43:04 PM
After having removed the clutch (it came off very easily with only slight assistance from a pry bar) and had a good look at it, it doesnt seem to be in too bad condition at all. The pressure plate is covered in rust around about 65% of its circumference, but should clean off fairly easily. I'm intending to immerse the friction material in a solution of citric acid, which I've found to be excellent as a rust remover. A quick wipe down in clean water and then thoroughly dry it out over a radiator and it should be good to go.

The inside of the cover plate and the flywheel have similar amounts of rust, but I think a quick lick over with a wire wheel in a cordless drill should clean that up.

And having looked more closely at the release bearing, the 'wobble' isn't in the bearing, but the housing. The bearing itself spins freely without any noise, so that seems serviceable as well.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on January 31, 2016, 07:25:00 PM
The next question - what type of clutch alignment tool do people regard as best? There's an enormous variety on ebay, most of which are pretty inexpensive.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: HFStuart on January 31, 2016, 09:50:27 PM
One with plenty of adpators!

To be fair mine is a cheapo like this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CLUTCH-ALIGNMENT-TOOL-KIT-UNIVERSAL-SET-18-PIECES-/301861586609?hash=item46485a46b1:g:D0sAAOSwFMZWrepf (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CLUTCH-ALIGNMENT-TOOL-KIT-UNIVERSAL-SET-18-PIECES-/301861586609?hash=item46485a46b1:g:D0sAAOSwFMZWrepf) and it works well.

If I don't have an adaptor that's a snug fit a few wraps of insulating tape do the job.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on February 01, 2016, 08:49:22 PM
Cheers Stuart - I've snaffled one of them... :) Just another thought - would a complete clutch from a Fiat 132 2.0 fit my engine? From what I can see the clutch on Fiat 131, 132 and 130TC 2.0 motors all use the same clutch part as the 2.0 Beta... Is that so?


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on February 03, 2016, 07:57:57 PM
After some thought I decided to get the clutch components bead blasted by a guy I know who does this stuff. As you'll see from the photos, it's made a big improvement...


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: Ammy on February 03, 2016, 08:22:32 PM
Surely looking clean doesn't compensate for wear.  Would never dream of going to all the trouble of removing a gearbox and not replacing used parts.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on February 03, 2016, 08:33:37 PM
Ammy, I'd agree if the motor was to be re-used for any length of time after the rebuild, but all the car has to do is to get back to the UK then it's going in for a full refurbish. This motor I'm getting ready is intended to be a drop-in replacement for the one the French garagiste buggered up. The original engine will be coming back in my van, the car (with replacement engine) will come back some time in the summer.

Once the car is in the UK it's having a top to bottom refresh, including totally refurbished engine.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: Ammy on February 03, 2016, 10:19:46 PM
Understand now,  commented before aware of the facts,  apologies.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on February 03, 2016, 11:10:23 PM
No problem, and no need to apologise! I'd look askance at someone putting 'cosmetically enhanced' secondhand pieces back in an engine under normal circumstances... :)

What was particularly galling was that the car was just about to be repatriated last November, and then the water pump failed. What should have been a simple replacement turned into a nightmare when he mis-timed the auxiliary shaft while replacing the cambelt (which I hadn't asked him to do...) So all I want to do is get the car back to Blighty where it can be sorted properly.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: WestonE on February 04, 2016, 08:45:24 AM
Graham

In the circumstances I would get a flat sander on the surface of the cover plate where it will touch the pressure plate to try to get a smoother surface. That rust pitting will rip into the clutch friction material and might create all sorts of snatch and sticking when you use it. Otherwise it looks OK for your use.

Good Luck

Eric 


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on February 04, 2016, 07:11:44 PM
Thanks for that, Eric. I did think that the pitting, even after blasting, might make the clutch take up too aggressive. I've got a Bosch Multitool with sander attachment that's perfect for getting into tight corners, so I'll put some fine emery cloth on that and get to work.


Title: Re: Clutch life and replacement options
Post by: mangocrazy on February 05, 2016, 03:25:36 PM
As advised by Eric I've given the driven area a good sanding with 80 and then 240 grit emery cloth, and when I run my fingernail over it now it is far smoother, with no raised parts which might snag or grab. I also gave the body a quick blow over with etch primer just to inhibit further rust formation.