Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Engine => Topic started by: mangocrazy on November 21, 2015, 04:19:07 PM



Title: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on November 21, 2015, 04:19:07 PM
I've recently posted about the problems I had with my Beta in France, and now I'm trying to figure a way to get the car back in the UK. My current thinking is to take a working engine and gearbox down to France in my van, switch engines in France (I have a good sized garage with power and light down there) and bring my original engine back in the van for a full strip down and refurb. The car (with a viable engine installed) can then be driven back to the UK and moved around the place for various pieces of suspension and body work.

I currently have two old Beta engines in a lockup garage. Upon investigation it seems that the carb engine (which has sat there for approaching 25 years) is seized. And while removing the spark plugs to facilitate turning the engine over, one of the plugs was so firmly welded to the head that the thread sheared below the hexagon and the centre electrode and plug top is now sitting on a table. I suspect that to get the engine running again would require total overhaul.

I haven't had time to assess the 2000 i.e. engine yet in detail, but the plugs came out without any bother and engine and gearbox have oil present. So the 2000 i.e. engine is the most likely candidate to make the trip south, but what will I need to swap over from the carb engine to the i.e. engine? Will the camshaft mounted distributor work 'as is' when transplanted into a Spider, or will I need to swap over cambox, exhaust camshaft and distributer? Also, I notice that the i.e. engine has an extra set of pulleys which I'm guessing are surplus to requirements. Also, all the fuel injection paraphernalia will need removing and my carb and manifold swapping over.

Is using a 2000 i.e. engine in a carb Spider a realistic proposition, or would I be best looking out for a running carb engine? (I've already put a 'wanted' advert in the appropriate section).


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: rossocorsa on November 21, 2015, 05:42:27 PM
I see the idea but have a feeling your are making a rod for your own back, would it not be easier if pricey to trailer it back? I just see loads of complications doing engine swaps etc.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on November 21, 2015, 07:06:56 PM
I guess if I could get hold of a suitable trailer, then that would be a worthwhile option. I'll give that option some thought.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on November 23, 2015, 09:27:19 PM
Having priced up 4 wheel trailers to buy and hire (and also envisaging the cost and difficulty of getting a van + trailer onto a cross-channel ferry), I've decided that plan A is the one I'll be following.

What exactly would be the issues tryng to fit a 2000 i.e. into a car which was designed for a carb engine? There would be problems with the distributor location, but couldn't that be solved by grafting on the cambox, exhaust cam and distributor from a carb engine? Does the i.e. engine still have the block-mounted takeoff point for the distributor, or would it be better (or indeed possible) to use the cam-mounted distributer off the later engines?

Anything else to be aware of...?


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: rossocorsa on November 24, 2015, 08:59:34 AM
No time to think about this properly at the moment but I think you could just leave the ie dizzy in place as it will do no harm but use the carb dizzy mounted on block instead. I don't think the basic engine architecture is much different. Hopefully someone with more experience or time can confirm?


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: WestonE on November 24, 2015, 10:52:26 AM
Graham

Internally there is not much difference in the IE Engine so as long as you have undamaged bores/ valves for compression it should all work. I would change the oil/filter cam belt /tensioner and plugs as a matter of course. You will be using the carb distributor and oil block so you will need the right gaskets for these. You should be able to leave the exhaust dizzy in place but unused. I would do a leak down compression test before taking it all the way to France. This needs a compressor and a tester and following the instructions to see if you have leaks past the rings or valves. Do you know why it was taken out of the car it was in?? Was it a runner when removed?? I would clean it externally (Ports plugged) while you can as the filth will transfer to you and could find it's way into the engine. I would personally remove the sump and check the oil pump and the big end/mains for extreme wear. However you can probably risk the bearings for your short use situation. Checking the oil pump and its strainer will tell you a lot along with if the oil coming out of the sump has added sparkle from engine/bearing wear. I would remove the cam boxes and inspect the cams for corrosion or wear (uneven lobes). Corrosion will quickly trash the tappets when the engine is run and it can get a lot worse quickly. If you can borrow or buy a bore scope it might help your nerves to look down each bore with the piston down to check for corrosion or heavy scoring, but the leak down test is more important as it will spot damaged rings or bent/burnt valves.

Generally if the IE unit is smooth turning with the plugs out with a good oil pump, no bore or cam corrosion and passes a compression leak down test you have a base for your temporary carb conversion engine.

Good Luck

Eric     


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on November 24, 2015, 12:40:26 PM
Thanks Eric, much appreciated. I'll be having a closer look this weekend and will see if the i.e. engine will turn over freely. I'll also open up the cam boxes and check the cams for wear etc. I do have a compressor, but no leakdown tester. I feel a purchase coming on...

I do have a fibre optic scope (bought from Aldi or Lidl when they were on offer), but have a horrible feeling that it's in France. Typical. Anyway, lots to be getting on with there so thanks again.

Cheers,

Graham


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on November 29, 2015, 08:37:09 PM
I've been doing some tinkering on the carb and i.e. engines this weekend, and in addition to the differences Eric mentioned, I've also realised that my i.e. engine has the power steering pump, and consequently extra pulleys and a different oil filter mounting block to the carb engine. This isn't a problem as I'll just swap them over. I can also now appreciate just how tightly everything is shoehorned in, especially on the i.e. engine. The injection manifold and plenum chamber takes up a LOT of space and the two central bolts are a real pain to remove.

All v-belt pulleys are now off and will be sent for blasting (they're rusty as hell), and the carb inlet and exhaust manifolds are now ready to fit to the i.e. engine if it's viable. Next weekend I'll be plugging in the (newly purchased) leak down tester and trying to assess the general health of the motor...


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on December 13, 2015, 07:02:47 PM
Still not got round to doing the leak-down test, but have verified that the engine turns over smoothly with the plugs out and the state of the inlet valve stems when viewed from the inlet port is encouraging. I've swapped over the oil filter mounting block and am now contemplating removing the exhaust camshaft-driven distributor just to free up a bit of space.

Is it a simple matter of removing the dizzy and bolting on the carb engine blanking plate, or are there complications? In particular, are the exhaust camshafts different between carb and i.e. models?


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: rossocorsa on December 13, 2015, 07:33:57 PM
AFAIK the timing of the cams is the same it's just that the i.e. cam has a slot to drive the dizzy


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on December 13, 2015, 08:33:57 PM
Cheers; I was hoping that might be the case...  :D


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on April 18, 2016, 10:46:18 PM
Bit of an update - I've taken the replacement i.e. engine down to France in the van, and it's currently sitting on the garage floor. The broken origional engine has had all its support systems removed and, as you will see from the photo below, is now suspended above the car...

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSCF1132_zpsowvtalt3.jpg)

A few moments later and it was free and clear of the car.

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSCF1138_zpsa7j2zkhq.jpg)

And the engine bay was empty...

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSCF1143_zpssfltfdsy.jpg)

Now I've got to swap over a number of parts (inlet manifold, distributor) and think of a way to keep the exhaust system out of the way when putting the engine back in. I'm toying with the idea of removing it in its entirety and re-introducing it when the engine is in place (always assuming there's room to do that, of course). A performance manifold had its attractions 'back in the day' but it's made for some real headaches with engine removal. I've had to get a lifting eye fabricated that bolts onto the 3 studs at the cam-belt end of the engine, and getting that in place with the exhaust system still in place was real fun and games. Got there in the end though.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on April 19, 2016, 07:14:01 AM
Good work. Do you have the fuel priming bulb permanently plumbed in?


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: WestonE on April 19, 2016, 07:28:33 AM
Graham

Get a heat shield on that manifold before your steering rack gaitors are toast!

Good Luck

Eric


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: lukasdeopalenica on April 19, 2016, 07:40:29 AM
As the betas engine bay is so tight personally I do prefer rather the other way of removing/instaling the drivetrain. Much easier and the same tools required.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on April 19, 2016, 11:48:57 AM
Good work. Do you have the fuel priming bulb permanently plumbed in?
Yes. I've found it's really useful, as (at least until now) the car was idle for months, then was used for a few weeks, then left idle again. It gets fuel to the carb quickly and saves running the battery down.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on April 19, 2016, 11:52:19 AM
Graham

Get a heat shield on that manifold before your steering rack gaitors are toast!

Good Luck

Eric
Hi Eric,

Probably too late, I think...  :) The only journey the car will make before a full strip down and refurbish is the trip back to the UK. After that, it's top to bottom refurb time, and exhaust heat shielding is definitely on the list. I'm probably going to get the headers ceramic coated and put in a heat shield, just to be on the safe side.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on April 19, 2016, 11:55:29 AM
As the betas engine bay is so tight personally I do prefer rather the other way of removing/instaling the drivetrain. Much easier and the same tools required.
I did think about that approach, and may well try it in the future. My only concern is whether I have enough headroom in the garage. When the car gets fully refurbished the subframe will be coming off, so that would be a good time to try it.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on April 19, 2016, 12:13:45 PM
If anyone's interested, this is the lifting hook I had made up. The steel plate is 10mm thick 180mm wide and 100mm high and the bent steel bar is also 10mm. It bolts on to the 3 studs at the cam-belt end of the cylinder head.

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSCF1158_zpsxf213vyb.jpg)


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: anotherdeadhero on April 20, 2016, 01:27:56 PM
Graham

Get a heat shield on that manifold before your steering rack gaitors are toast!

Good Luck

Eric

I've just realised where the intermittent engine bay smoke is coming from when it gets really hot, and only when it is really hot!

(http://www.mlehworld.com/mleh3/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)

They looked fine from underneath while I was chnaging linkage bushes!


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: mangocrazy on April 20, 2016, 07:59:09 PM
Oops...  ;D

Having seen where the steering rack is located, I'm firmly of the opinion that it's an engine out job. I can't begin to imagine how challenging it would be with the engine in situ...


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: anotherdeadhero on April 20, 2016, 08:26:02 PM
I think I may be looking for an interim solution pending final resolution ...


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: HFStuart on April 20, 2016, 09:10:45 PM
On non PAS cars at least it's not as difficult as it looks. undo the bottom steering ball joint then working from the wheelarches remove the mounting bolts and undo the steering arms from the rack and remove them. The rack then slides out to the side.

It's a faff but not as bad as pulling the engine out.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: lukasdeopalenica on April 21, 2016, 07:48:26 AM
Get a heat shield on that manifold before your steering rack gaitors are toast!

I wrapped the exhaust manifold with a thermoinsulative band and covered it back with the standard steel shield. So far it works good.


Title: Re: Beta engine part interchangeability
Post by: anotherdeadhero on April 22, 2016, 11:23:27 AM
Anyone got a picture of this heat shield? I've got a bit of ally shielding, wondering where is best to slap it  ???