Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Fuel System Injection => Topic started by: LanciaNut69 on September 13, 2015, 09:15:15 PM



Title: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on September 13, 2015, 09:15:15 PM
After messing around for a long time chasing an electrical gremlin, I am going to upgrade the old and tired injection system to a modern, programmable ECU, utilising some of the original parts, and with the intention of retaining the stock look as far as possible.  In additon, upgarding to distributorless ignition.  This means retaining the air flow meter, airbox, fuel rail and injectors.  The aux air valve will also be retained together with the original tps unit and throttle linkage.

My original intention was to retain the original loom covering, but this has become brittle and will be replaced.

Pictures can be seen here -https://flic.kr/s/aHskjGdc7y (https://flic.kr/s/aHskjGdc7y)

The additional bits required so far are

Emerald K6 ECU.  - You can use a K3, or even the old M3DK unit, but make sure that it is the later variety with a serial number after 41272. You could also use an OMEX, Megasquirt or alternative.

Flying Lead Loom - a lot easier and quicker to get a partially made loom, which has everything attached to the loom plug, which can then be cut to length and terminated.

Throttle Position Sensor - the original is not suitable, being essentially a switch rather than a potentiomter.

Coolant Temperature Sensor

Air Temperature Sensor

Coilpack and HT Leads

2 pin junior mini timer plugs

Ballast Resistors as the original injectors are low impedance

Relay Kit

5.75" Triggerwheel

First thing is to clear the engine bay down to remove those parts that are to be modified and also discarded.  Remove battery and battery tray, airbox, air flow meter, aux air valve, distributor, air ducting from air flow meter to throttle body, throttle body, loom, and ecu. 

Also remove alternator belt and slacken steering pump so that crank pulley can be removed.

Open flap in air flow meter to its fullest extent, drill a hole and fit screw to hold plate open.  Ensure that any swarf is cleaned away.  I would also use a drop of locktite or similar to avoid the screw coming out.  Set Airflow meter aside.

Next, we will look at the loom.  This will be replaced in the main.  There will be parts of the original that will be retained for appearances only.  The bits that will be kept are

TPS
5th Injector (Cold Start)
Water Temp Sender & Timer
Aux Air Valve
Double Relay Block
Coil Trigger Lead
The Air Flow Meter Plug - I have removed this as it won't be seen, but you could leave it if you want.

The next step is to start stripping the loom covering from the joints of the loom.  The next update will have more pictures of this element, which is arguable the most important part of the conversion!

Thanks for looking and feel free to comment.

Cheers

Darren





Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on September 14, 2015, 07:46:53 PM
Next update on the various sensors.

Air temp sensor is a simple matter of tapping a nut to M14x1.5 to hold the sensor in place.  I did look at placing this sensor on the underside of the airbox, but decided it was a bit of a hot spot and opted for a side mount.  It's still unobtrusive though I think.

The water temperature sensor is fitted to the cylinder head and takes the place of the overheat light sender.  The new sensor is also M14x1.5 and needs a bit of work to fit, but nothing complicated.  Simply take an old temperature sender sensor, cut the probe off the bottom back to the thread and then do the same at the other end down to the hex as shown in the picture.  Drill out to 10.2mm and tap!

I've also made a mounting plate for the TPS unit - it's in rough at the moment and I still need to make the cover plate up.  When it's all painted black, you hopefully won't notice it.  I had to drill an additional hole to accept the mounting bolt and a few tapping M4x0.7 holes and we're there!

Pics follow!


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on September 14, 2015, 07:49:39 PM
TPS progress pics - rough work!



Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on September 22, 2015, 08:46:27 PM
Back again chaps with the next update!

The throttle body mods have now been completed and it has been refitted to the plenum.

The Beta injectors are low impedance and therefore require ballast resistors to work with modern injection systems.  The number required varies depending on the system used, so make sure you check your documentation on the system you use.  Omex uses one per pair of injectors, whereas the Emerald system requires one per injector.  These should be mounted on a heat sink (aluminium strip).  I used the original ECU bracket to mount the relay pack, ecu and ballast resistors as you can see in the pictures.  The wiring loom was put together using the original as a template.  I then cut out the parts that will be used to disguise the fact the system has been changed.

Best way is to allow extra lengths as you put the loom together, then lay it where it will go and cut to suit.  You can then remove the loom and start to cover and terminate connections.  That way, when it all goes back in, it should be all at the right length!  Loom is now back in - pictures to follow.

Next steps will be refitting the crank pulley and fitting the coil pack before putting the rest of the other bits back together and going for start!  Watch this space!!

Thanks for reading.

Darren


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: gengis on September 23, 2015, 08:49:47 PM
Watching this post with interest...keep up the good work Darren.


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on September 24, 2015, 01:06:39 AM
Thanks Gengis - It's coming together nicely - loom is back in again.  Got the coilpack bracket painted and will fit tomorrow.  Hope to get the triggerwheel/crank pulley back by the end of the month.

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on October 11, 2015, 06:03:35 PM
It's been a while, but here is the next update.

I got the bracket sorted for the coilpack.  There is an issue for a decision with the cam.  The original ie exhaust cam drives the distributor and there is an additional mounting for the distributor.  You can either fabricate a bracket that sits on the mounting for the distributor, or you can replace the cam with one from a Montecarlo.  I went with the latter option, which has the advantage of a performance advantage over the stock item and makes for a neater install.

The next issue is getting a crank position signal sorted.  There are a few places where a triggerwheel can be bought and I wanted to use the oriignal crank position sensor.  The pictures show how the triggerwheel has been mounted.  There is some machining work required here, but it is pretty straightforward.  The problem now is that once the original sensor bracket was straightened, it now fouls on the alternator belt!  I've ordered a replacement sensor with a right angle, which I'm sure will do the trick!  I will then have the ECU to plug in (when it arrives!) and just connect the final couple of wires internally and we're ready for mapping!!

Pictures follow

 



Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on November 22, 2015, 01:03:30 AM
Where does the time go?  ;D ;D ;D

Right, the last update was that I was waiting for the ECU to arrive and in the meantime was having a few issues with mounting the crank sensor.

ECU received and pre-programmed with the information I supplied to Emerald as far as ignition, injectors, fuel pressure, and engine configuration.  This was simply mounted to the replay/distribution board using the two mountings on the ECU case.  I have to say, given my experience with installing various ECU's is that this is the second best as far as mounting is concerned.

The easiest is the Megasquirt casing with 4 fixed tabs.  The Emerald casing has a sliding bracket on each side, which need to be pushed to their maximum travel before mounting points being drilled, or else the ECU will move on it's mountings.  However, that if preferable to the Omex system that has no fixings at all and needs to be stuck in place if you don't spend the time making up a cradle.

Using the original ECU mounting plate meant an easy way of securing the ECU and relay/distribution set, and meant a continuation of the stealth install.  A change of crank sensor mounting and position was needed to avoid fouling of the alternator belt.  Even so, I still had to shave a corner from the sensor to get clearance from the belt, but after positioning, it does work.

Once these parts were in place and ECU connected, we were ready to go for start.  The initial connections to the PC were fine and a crank signal was seen on cranking.  The problem was a lack of ignition and injection signals.  The reason for this was quite quickly traced to the relay trigger and after a quick re-positioning of the trigger, she fired up!  A further adjustment to trimming and I got a stable tickover.  Running up to working temperature was problem free and fan cut in and out as expected.

Next step now that a stable start and warm-up has been achieved is to put her on a trailer and take her to Storm Developments for mapping! 

Progress pictures below, with last two showing before and after of the install.  I am happy that this is a stealth install.  You could strip out the unused parts if you wanted to, but I think this does give a good balance of originality over modern working.

Fingers crossed I can get her mapped next week, as well as MoT'd and I'll report back on how she performs!

Cheers

Darren



Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on November 22, 2015, 09:07:30 AM
I've had an ie in the past and I'm struggling to see the difference, so yes, definitely a 'stealth fit'. Good work.

Looking forward to hear how it runs on the road.


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: DARREN BETA. I.E on November 22, 2015, 12:08:12 PM
excellent work darren , i getting excited about her coming home soon ,then to move on with all other work she needs , was starting to lose heart when she running badly and various garages and mechanics could,nt seem to get her right , nice to try to keep these as original but we all have to have a bit of give if we want them running right , so new ecu isthe way to go. ::) ::) ::)


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on November 22, 2015, 07:08:09 PM
Thanks Neil,

You can see that the fuel pressure regulator is a little shiny and doesn't look the same as the original - the rest of it you would be pretty hard pressed to notice to be honest, but that was the point! ;o)  You could ditch a lot of the wiring, the digiplex, the aux air valve, double relay, and the air flow meter, but it would then be obvious - although you would get a slight advantage in that the airflow to the throttle body would be improved.

Cheers

Darren

I've had an ie in the past and I'm struggling to see the difference, so yes, definitely a 'stealth fit'. Good work.

Looking forward to hear how it runs on the road.


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on November 22, 2015, 07:13:43 PM
Hi Darren,

Won't be long now!  Fingers crossed I can get her in for mapping this week, and if I'm really lucky, MoT at the end of the week, then's she's ready to come back to you!!

Will be great for you to actually enjoy driving her for a change, rather than be wondering if she'll make it or not!!  Windows will be top of the list to sort.

I think this is a great way to modernise an old and out of date system that is prone to problems, and still retain the look of an original engine bay.  Update to follow soon!

Cheers

Darren

excellent work darren , i getting excited about her coming home soon ,then to move on with all other work she needs , was starting to lose heart when she running badly and various garages and mechanics could,nt seem to get her right , nice to try to keep these as original but we all have to have a bit of give if we want them running right , so new ecu isthe way to go. ::) ::) ::)


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: lanciamad on November 23, 2015, 10:09:43 AM
Great work Darren! Not sure how I missed this post until now, you'd never know at a glance all the work you've done. Hope to hear it's running like a dream now...


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on November 27, 2015, 10:32:46 AM
Hi Marcus,

She was partially mapped on Tuesday and does run like a dream, apart.......... from running under load at the top end of the rev range, about 5k rpm.      She'll run all day under 5k really smoothly.  She'll tickover all day with rock steady temps.  But you'll get oil coming up the PCV pipe on a power run, which obviously drops into the induction side of the engine, and you get smoke - lots of it!

I've done a compression test and got 170,180,180,180 across the block, which is on the money for a standard engine of that age.  I'm hoping the issue is down to either blocked or constricted drain on the PCV.  The pain is that the plenum has to come off to get there!

The ignition switch has failed and will not crank now, so that needs to be changed.  I notice that they have 5 wires opposed to the usual 4.  Can anyone suggest a source for a replacement?  The alternative is to fit a starter button!

As ever, update to follow!

Cheers,

Darren


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: frankxhv773t on November 27, 2015, 10:41:02 AM
Obviously eliminating the excess oil in the breather is the priority but if it can't be entirely eliminated would an oil catch tank in the breather system help?


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on November 27, 2015, 08:33:39 PM
That's the plan, the issue is whether its vapour that comes up and that's ok, but if it's a stream them that will empty the sump of oil with catastrophic results!  Will post up progress pics as I go - keep yer fingers crossed!!!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on July 28, 2016, 08:05:48 AM
I can't believe it's been that long since I updated this topic!  My apologies, but happy to report that this project is finally finished and has been delivered back to her proper owner.

The last update was that whilst she was up and running, she was blowing smoke above 5k.  It was thought to be a problem with the PCV valve or possibly a blown head gasket, which was pressurizing the crankcase.  After stripping everything off, the PCV system was fine so the head was removed and the head gasket changed.  With this replaced, I headed back to the rolling road to finish off the mapping, but NIGHTMARE!  The same problem ensued and tonnes of smoke over 5k!  The only thing that this could be then was a ridge on one or more of the bores, small enough that compression was maintained at lower revs and kept the oil where it should be - hence the expected compression test results.

Under normal circumstances, the next option would be to strip the engine, have the block honed and rebuilt with new piston rings.  If the ridge was worse, then rebore with new pistons and rings.  However, a secondhand engine was located, serviced and refitted.  Again, she started on the button and a return trip to the rolling road was booked.  This time with much better results!  The engine runs very smoothly, in part due to having the injectors refurbished.  She starts on the button and warms up without issue.  On the road she performs as expected, cruising on motorways smoothly and instantly being able to driven with more spirit when the need arises.

The first serious outing was to deliver her back home; a trip of over a 100 miles.  This actually took a lot longer than anticipated due to leaving later than planned and getting stuck in rush hour traffic, with some time spent stationary on a hot day.  I am happy to report that she ran faultlessly, happy to chug along in the start/stop stuff, and instantly ready to accelerate to cruising speeds when needed.  When traffic was clear, she cruised at 75/80 with no problems at all - bit difficult to be 100% accurate on that as the speedo was reading a very optimistic 90/95!

Further improvement could be made by changing the patched up, standard exhaust for a quality stainless, sports system.

Was it worth it?  To make a highly unreliable and for that reason unusable car usable again? Hell yes!!  There's nothing better than being able enjoy driving your Beta without having to remove the Jetronic system and revert to a carb. 

Is it easy to do? That depends on your level of competance in the workshop.  The mechanical side of things is straightforward, even in stealth mode and you could get away with leaving the original exhust cam, plugging the hole left by the dizzy and bolting the new coilpack to that (I may make up that bracket too), although changing to a Monte exhaust cam does give a slight performance increase.  The most complicated part is the wiring, and again this depends on whether you want to go stealth, which does greatly complicate matters as you have to add redundant parts back into the new loom.  You will obviously need to have the crank pulley machined for the triggerwheel.

Is it expensive?  It's not cheap, but better to spend money on making your car reliable than being frustrated that it doesn't work properly or breaks down.  The development work has now been done and all of that information is in this post.  Alternatively, drop me a line and I can fit it for you.

If you have any questions, please feel free to message or email me.

Cheers,

Darren


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: peteracs on July 28, 2016, 08:50:30 AM
Hi Darren

Congratulations on getting there, any chance we we may get to see it/one in the flesh anywhere as sure that more than just myself would be interested.

Peter


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on July 28, 2016, 10:00:55 AM
Hi Peter,

Darren Bates owns the car, and he's centrally located around Kettering.  I know he was itching to get out and about in her and unfortunately she wasn't ready for Mitcar.  I know he does check out the forum and should post up with details on when he's next out.

Cheers

Darren



Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: peteracs on July 28, 2016, 12:52:57 PM
Hi Darren

As a longer term project I thought it would be good to have a Beta engine mockup for use at shows etc. I wonder if this 'update' would be a more interesting project to have as would provide an interesting talking point and who knows may get you some business as well. As far as the add ons to the standard engine, would it be possible to get any cheap non working parts which look the part?

Peter


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: WestonE on July 28, 2016, 02:05:01 PM
Great to see this car back on the road reliably and a way forward for IE owners as they aging dated FI increasingly fails.

Eric


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on July 29, 2016, 08:23:26 AM
Hi Peter,

It's a good idea, but not really practical as I usually travel in a Monte and whilst there is a fair amount of space, lugging an engine around would severley limit the fun factor of driving! ;o)  The other really is that it's designed to look standard so there isn't really much to see.  The advantage is that if in future, you want to upgrade to throttle bodies, you can do so very easily and just have the car remapped.

I'm happy to chat to anyone about the conversion and hope that Darren B will be out and about with the car so it can be seen in person.

I'd like to do another one, but a non-stealth version, keeping the plenum setup so the engine bay wiring can be cleaned up and will be interesting to see how performance would be improved with more efficient induction.  Anyone interested?

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Converting Beta ie to Modern Injection System - Stealth Fit!
Post by: LanciaNut69 on July 29, 2016, 08:24:28 AM
Thanks Eric,

Much appreciated!

Cheers

Darren