Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Fuel System Injection => Topic started by: LanciaNut69 on May 08, 2015, 08:59:36 PM



Title: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 08, 2015, 08:59:36 PM
Chaps,

Wonder if you can help out here or offer some suggestions/pointers to solve this issue.

Basically she will start using the cold start valve, but the injectors do not seem to be firing.  I have checked continuity of all wiring to the various injectors and sensors.  I have also checked resistance on the senders and the injectors - all ok.  The TPS has been adjusted correctly and whilst the regulator will not hold the fuel pressure when the engine is switched off in the long term - it does hold 40 PSI when the injection is switched on. 

The injectors do give a spray pattern when they are powered. 

Spark plugs are new, as are HT leads and rotor arm.  There are sparks when turning over.  Injection system earths have been cleaned and refitted to cam box.

Aux air valve appears to be working and does open and close, temp depending.  Cold start valve activates and shuts off correctly.

AFM appears to be working properly.

Brake servo hose and non return valve have been replaced.  Ignition switch has been replaced and does require a positive action to get the ignition lights on, but given that it has run, I don't think it's preventing starting, although should be replaced at a later date.

I'm coming round to thinking that it's ECU related, unless anyone has any ideas?

Thanks in advance and look forward to hearing from you!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: Thotos on May 08, 2015, 09:45:15 PM
I believe the Beta injection system (Bosch L-Jetronic) is the same as on the Gamma. The injectors all fire at the same time (i.e. non-sequential) and the trigger comes from the firing side of the coil. In the Gamma there's a wire that runs from the coil to the ECU and it has an in-line fuse. If the fuse has blown or there are bad connections to the fuse holder then the injectors will never fire.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 08, 2015, 09:55:06 PM
Hi Theo,

Yes, that is correct - there is a fuse off the double relay I think that powers the injectors.  They are then switched by the ECU on the earth side.  There is power getting to the injectors I think, but there does not appear to be the instruction from the ECU with the earth signal.  I have ordered a noid light so I'll be able to check for sure.

Just reread and will look to see if there is a fuse between the positive side of the coil and the ECU.

Thanks for the pointer!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: Thotos on May 09, 2015, 03:24:02 PM
The wire is from the -ve (firing) side of the coil to the ECU and it's what tells the ECU to fire the injectors. As I said above, all 4 injectors fire at the same time. The ignition unit tells the coil to fire the spart plug and the same signal tells the ECU to fire the injectors. The potentiometre in the air metering box tells the ECU how much air is being sucked by the engine and the ECU uses this plus the signal from the water temperature sensor to determine how long the injectors should be kept on for. I think most likely your problem will be a connection problem to one of the places where the ECU gets a signal from.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 09, 2015, 09:15:22 PM
Hi again Theo,

Sorry for being a bit dense there - I blame vino! ;o)  I'll revisit the coil connections and report back!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 10, 2015, 01:39:30 PM
Right, next update - I have the following connections at the coil

Pin 1 (-ve) black shielded wire, and two red/green trace wires.
Pin 15 (+ve) Blue/black trace and a red/black trace.

Shielded wire speaks for itself.  The red/green goes back to the twin relay pin 9 in part and presumably to the ECU for the other wire - will trace this.  I have continuity from twin relay to coil on this and to earth.

Blue/is IGN switched live and black/red runs to twin relay pin 1.  I have checked the other wires from this side of the relay and confirm I have the correct voltages and trigger for the fuel pump. 

More info to follow after lunch!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 10, 2015, 06:33:36 PM
Have now checked through to trace the red/green trace wire and have 2 running to the negative terminal of the coil.  One runs, as per last post to pin 9 of the IGN side of the twin relay.  The other runs to the digiplex unit, via a three pin connector.  This has a blue/white trace and a black.  This plug connects black to black, blue/white to blue/white, and red/green to grey.  This grey wire is a switched live.  

The other red/green runs from this 3 way, up to the digiplex plug at number 4 or 8 depending which way you look at it.

All fuses in fuse box are unbroken, fuel pump still running, got sparks, got cold start valve working as it should, but still nothing from the injectors.

Any suggestions, or anyone got an ecu I can borrow?

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: Thotos on May 11, 2015, 01:15:01 AM
I have a spare Gamma ECU which is most probably the same. Where are you based?


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: rossocorsa on May 11, 2015, 07:42:35 AM
I might have a spare one somewhere there are two different ecu for betas depending on the ignition system so I could have a look but would need to know which part number is on yours


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 11, 2015, 09:18:14 AM
Thanks guys, I'll get the info and come back to you.  I'm South based, halfway between Newbury and Basingstoke.

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 11, 2015, 10:11:30 AM
ECU now out - Bosch 0 280 000 174

Keeping finger crossed one you you chaps can help!

Incidentally, is there a complete 'proper' wiring schematic for the ie Betas?  I've got the pin out diagram for the ecu, together with twin relay wiring, but nothing for the rest of the car, including the digiplex unit.

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: peteracs on May 11, 2015, 10:27:28 AM
Hi Darren

There is a US centric version for the 81 model year on the Lancisti site in the download section which may help?

Peter


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: rossocorsa on May 11, 2015, 11:17:39 AM
there is one need to check where I have it


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: rossocorsa on May 11, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvb2rl6e6b4twrd/Beta%20coupe%20hpe%20series%202%20fl2%20electrics.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvb2rl6e6b4twrd/Beta%20coupe%20hpe%20series%202%20fl2%20electrics.pdf?dl=0)

Not the best quality but better than nothing! If there is anything missing let me know as I have the L jetronic manual as well


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 11, 2015, 01:47:07 PM
Hi Peter,

Thanks for that - will have a look, but I don't think its the same as UK cars, as they were confused when I was talking about crank senors, etc.

Cheers

Darren

Hi Darren

There is a US centric version for the 81 model year on the Lancisti site in the download section which may help?

Peter


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 11, 2015, 01:48:42 PM
Thanks for that, much appreciated - I'll have a delve through it while waiting to see if anyone has a working ECU I can borrow.

Cheers,

Darren

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvb2rl6e6b4twrd/Beta%20coupe%20hpe%20series%202%20fl2%20electrics.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvb2rl6e6b4twrd/Beta%20coupe%20hpe%20series%202%20fl2%20electrics.pdf?dl=0)

Not the best quality but better than nothing! If there is anything missing let me know as I have the L jetronic manual as well


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: thecolonel on May 11, 2015, 03:25:36 PM
I have a couple on the shelf (southampton) both from 'Y' Reg cars.
I also have the injector engine bay loom, relays and injector rail.
Plus airflow meters.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 11, 2015, 05:46:13 PM
Hi Geoff,

PM sent 👍👍

Cheers

Darren

I have a couple on the shelf (southampton) both from 'Y' Reg cars.
I also have the injector engine bay loom, relays and injector rail.
Plus airflow meters.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: gengis on May 11, 2015, 09:21:10 PM
Just for info, I have a couple of ECU's one from a Coupe ie, and one from a HPE ie and both are marked with the part No..0 280 000 216. 

I wonder if the ECU you have is designed to fire injectors with a higher impedance, therefore firing your lower impedance injectors has burned out the injector drivers?

I can send you a ECU, if you don't manage to get one.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 11, 2015, 11:59:28 PM
Hi Gengis,

Thanks for that - is that the difference between the two ECU codes?  In typical Lancia fashion, both 174 and 216 are listed for cars 81-84, with 174 being applicable to 1980 cars.  This one is on an 'A' plate, so 83/84.

Is there a way to tell high impedance injectors from low and which belong to which ECU? 

Geoff is very kindly looking out a unit for me to test, but if I can keep you on standby if I need the 216, that would be great 👍👍

Thanks again guys

Darren


Just for info, I have a couple of ECU's one from a Coupe ie, and one from a HPE ie and both are marked with the part No..0 280 000 216. 

I wonder if the ECU you have is designed to fire injectors with a higher impedance, therefore firing your lower impedance injectors has burned out the injector drivers?

I can send you a ECU, if you don't manage to get one.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: rossocorsa on May 12, 2015, 07:45:00 AM
Couldn't find my spare one in my pile of spares, might have already passed it on to someone or more likely it's there but well hidden. I think there is a difference between ecu on cars with or without digiplex but not sure my memory is a bit vague on the subject.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 12, 2015, 08:28:13 AM
Thanks for looking, Rossocorsa - makes sense that could be the difference - 174 for digiplex and 216 without maybe.  I've seen mention of ECU swaps, but no actual results. I guess we'll find out soon enough depending on,what I can get my hands on!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: thecolonel on May 12, 2015, 08:46:46 PM
Darren,
Just getting ready to post,
 the two I have are:

0 280 000 174. and
0 280 000 216

which do you prefer ?


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: thecolonel on May 12, 2015, 08:54:39 PM
Gone back through the thread, I'll send the 174


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 12, 2015, 09:07:40 PM
Correct!  Thanks again, Geoff, much appreciated!

All the best,

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: gengis on May 12, 2015, 09:10:38 PM
Curiosity has got the better of me, I checked my perfectly running Fiat 124 Spider and Lancia Coupe ie both with L-jetronic to see what ECU they were running.

Fiat 124 Spider - 0 280 000 190.  Which runs with Magnetti Marelli electronic ignition.  Injector coil values = 2.2 ohms.  (light grey body)

Lancia Coupe ie - 0 280 000 216.  Which runs with Digiplex ignition.  Injector coil values = 2.2 ohms.  (light grey body)

I have run the Spider perfectly well with the spare 216 ECU, as the Spider is a U.S. derived car I thought the 216 would run better because the U.S. 190 would looking for an input from the catalyst.  But it makes no difference.  At the moment the Spider is running with Mark Allisons Computronix Distributorless Ignition and the original 190 ECU, all this is mated to a Strada 130 engine.  At a recent visit to the dyno this set up produced 118 bhp at the wheels.  So there is a degree of compatabilty.

I also checked a spare Argenta fuel rail with injectors, which looks the same as the Spider/Coupe rail.  
Injector coil values = 15.8 ohms  (yellow body)

Hope some of this info is useful.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 12, 2015, 10:30:04 PM
Hi Gengis,

Just had a quick look at the injectors I have.  The ones fitted to the car have a creamy type of body.  The connectors are grey and the nozzles of the jets are orange.  The other injectors I have have a grey body and a cream nozzle.  Both sets are 2.8 Ohms.  I have no info as to whether these are the original injectors or not.

Cheers

Darren



Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: Tone on May 20, 2015, 03:15:06 PM
Thanks for looking, Rossocorsa - makes sense that could be the difference - 174 for digiplex and 216 without maybe. 

No. I've got 0 280 000 174. And it's not digiplex.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: Tone on May 20, 2015, 03:31:55 PM
 At the moment the Spider is running with Mark Allisons Computronix Distributorless Ignition and the original 190 ECU, all this is mated to a Strada 130 engine.  At a recent visit to the dyno this set up produced 118 bhp at the wheels.  So there is a degree of compatabilty.

Do you have photos of this installation? And what about signal from the coil to ECU?


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on May 22, 2015, 11:49:17 PM
Ok chaps,

Next update is that having fitted the ECU very kindly lent to my by Geoff, the problem still persists.  I have to conclude that the injectors are not getting power, which points to the twin relay.  I guess it shouldn't be that much of a surprise given that its 30 years old! I will check through the schematic I have and produce something with modern relays once I have separately powered them to see if it solves the issue.

Update to follow soon as I have it.

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on August 20, 2015, 04:45:22 PM
Hello all,

It's been a while now but I did manage to chase down the issue, but not how exactly to reliably solve the issue!!  Every part of the system has been checked and whilst there is nothing wrong per se, the issue is that when there is a demand on the engine, the timing is retarded, which acts a bit like a rev limiter.

As long as you don't use the accelerator, she'll quite happily cruise along, right up until you put your foot down on the loud pedal!  You can get a clean rev through the range by manually adjusting the rotor arm in the air flow meter, but as the issue is not linear, tightening the spring to richen the mixture does not help!

The only reliable way to solve this is to fit a modern injection/management system, which is what I shall be doing.  The intention is to be able to provide a kit of bits that can be added or replace existing parts, but leaving the engine bay to look as though it were still running the old system.  I will start a new topic once things are under way and I can show some pics of how it all looks.

Thanks again for your help so far and I'll be posting soon!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: gengis on August 20, 2015, 08:06:37 PM
Sounds like it could be a fuel or air delivery problem...I would change the fuel pressure regulator and leave the air filter off and try it.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: rossocorsa on August 20, 2015, 09:25:39 PM
Is there not a vacuum connection on the digiplex unit? If so I suspect that the digiplex unit is faulty


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on August 20, 2015, 09:27:43 PM
Hi Gengis - been there, done that. New fuel pump, new regulator, new filter, different AFMs, Aux Airs, Digiplexs, ECU, Loom, Dual Relay, Fuel Rail, Injectors, etc etc etc.  Issue is old stuff that can't be reliably fixed.  I could spend more weeks and weeks chasing this glitch about and still not have decent reliability.

Let me show you what I can do with a stealth modern upgrade!

Cheers

Darren

ps - Rossocorsa - thanks chap, already changed!!


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: rossocorsa on August 20, 2015, 09:31:20 PM
Thank goodness the vx had carbs! Having said that I can't  say that I've heard too many problems with the injection system bit surprising really


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: thecolonel on August 20, 2015, 09:45:47 PM
Sorry none of the spare parts helped.
I remember Thotos (Theo) took the
side cover off an airflow meter are
played/adjusted the internals, think
it was in a gamma, but same basic
system.


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on August 21, 2015, 12:24:18 AM
Hi Geoff,

That's exactly what I did to get an even acceleration, but it wasn't a linear adjustment so bending the arm or tightening the spring would only have a minimal benefit.  Not to worry on the spares chap - would you like them back?  Happy to call in again for a cuppa!

Cheers

Darren


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: WestonE on August 21, 2015, 08:45:35 AM
Guys

I will back Darren on this one as I have been "on call" for multiple steps of this challenge working through it system by system and I know something about these cars and FI. The car had already been to the respected Northampton Motorsport unsuccessfully and Darren had his findings checked at Storm Developments who have a vast and deep knowledge of all things Fuel Injection and Pressure charged (Time Attack cars and 1000 BHP Audi A3s). NB they mapped my 277BHP FI Montecarlo and the GC FI engine on throttle bodies so brave enough to work with Lancias.

When do you stop when you have multiple old components that are un-reliable? Darren will be changing the old sensors and providing a vastly more capable ECU that can easily cope with tuned engine components whilst giving great economy and easy starting.

If you have an IE and it starts to fail this could put a smile back on your face.

If it was my car I think I might have kept hitting it with a hammer until I felt better frankly. I really look forward to hearing this one is on the road being enjoyed.

Eric

   


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: peteracs on August 21, 2015, 10:55:17 AM

The only reliable way to solve this is to fit a modern injection/management system, which is what I shall be doing.  The intention is to be able to provide a kit of bits that can be added or replace existing parts, but leaving the engine bay to look as though it were still running the old system.  I will start a new topic once things are under way and I can show some pics of how it all looks.


That would be a great option as the number of queries that keep cropping up with the IE system not running properly appears quite high. I also think a reliable and hopefully more efficient system would be a bonus. I know folk say the injection system runs much more smoothly than the original carb version and would be a good option if you do not want to go the whole hog with throttle bodies etc, but want an improvement.

Peter


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: DARREN BETA. I.E on August 21, 2015, 05:46:01 PM
as some would say hit it with hammer, well its my i.e darrens working on and i was close to giving up with it or smashing it , it was very fustrating never knowing if it would start or run reasonably smooth , its nice to keep original as we can but sometimes things have to change to get the enjoyment of driving back , darren has run through it with me and we decided that fitting a emerald ecu would be best option , excellent work darren , i,m fully positive i can soon get beta weaving round the countryside lanes and hopefully join up at shows or meets 


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: thecolonel on August 22, 2015, 10:27:51 PM
Keep the spares Darren, they may be useful later,
You're always welcome to a cuppa.

Geoff


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on August 23, 2015, 02:25:45 PM
Thanks Darren for keeping faith with your Beta.

We have a plan for moving forward and it hopefully won't be too long now before you can actually get to enjoy driving her!

Geoff, thanks for that and will do.  I'll be in touch next time I'm in the area so you can get the kettle on!!

Cheers

Darren

as some would say hit it with hammer, well its my i.e darrens working on and i was close to giving up with it or smashing it , it was very fustrating never knowing if it would start or run reasonably smooth , its nice to keep original as we can but sometimes things have to change to get the enjoyment of driving back , darren has run through it with me and we decided that fitting a emerald ecu would be best option , excellent work darren , i,m fully positive i can soon get beta weaving round the countryside lanes and hopefully join up at shows or meets 


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: HF Stinger on July 12, 2016, 06:07:17 AM
Hey guys, did you get this sorted out?


Title: Re: Injectors not firing - why?
Post by: LanciaNut69 on July 12, 2016, 02:53:46 PM
Hi Sean,

Progress is still continuing, and I will give a full report when she's finally sorted.  A brief update was that everything was finished and ready to rock and roll.  After a few other jobs, Mot was passed too.  Unfortunately, whilst the engine sounds great and smooth, with no rattles - the rolling road proved too much and there was much smoke over 5000 rpm.  A replacement head gasket and overhaul did not cure the problem and a replacement engine has now been sourced and fitted.  This one with a slightly warmer cam and some head work.  She's now booked in for another session on the rolling road on Thursday, when I hope that all will be finished and I can release her back in to the arms of her very patient owner!!

Watch this space - update to follow shortly!

Cheers

Darren