Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Engine => Topic started by: peteracs on March 08, 2013, 11:52:51 AM



Title: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: peteracs on March 08, 2013, 11:52:51 AM
Hi All

Ok, have successfully removed the belt and tensioner bearing (1600 engine) and  replaced the bearing and managed to get the new belt back on round the crank etc (I did roughly compare the belts and they appeared the same size, it was bought from a reputable motor factors as a kit supplied by AE, tensioner was SKF part and belt is QH). I have also tensioned up the tensioner bearing as far as I think it will go and locked it off. BUT the cambelt appears incredibly tight fit to get back on the inlet cam wheel, is it supposed to be such a difficult job before you release the tensioner bearing?

Thanks

Peter


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: Thotos on March 08, 2013, 04:14:19 PM
It should not be tight with the tensioner bearing pushed back and locked in the 'slack' position (i.e. not tensioning the belt). You need to count the teeth on the old and the new belts to make sure you've got the correct belt for your car.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on March 08, 2013, 04:18:45 PM
bit confused about tensioner bearing do you mean you've locked it  away from the belt or towards it? as I recall (over 10 years since I've done one on a beta) the belt can be fairly awkward to get on the last pulley but shouldn't be excessively tight, once you have released the tensioner and locked it plus rotated the engine by hand a few turns the tension on the belt should equalise and not be excessive. by the way I have the special tool for checking the tension  ;D 


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: peteracs on March 08, 2013, 05:08:22 PM
Hi

I have locked it so that the belt will be at its most loose, ie when I release it it will then tension the belt. The tension bearing is the same as the one that came off and is the correct size ie 67mm in diameter as opposed to the 2.0l version which I think is 71mm.

Really looking forward to taking the belt off again to count the teeth......

Peter


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: peteracs on March 11, 2013, 12:53:08 PM
Hi All

Ok, well before I went through the motion of removing the belt and counting teeth (probably similar effect to sheep), I had one last go at ensuring the belt was correctly located. The difficulty (both to do and to see) is whether the belt is fully tensioned between the crank and the idler gear which drives the disti. I managed to do this by taking the belt off the idler at the front of the idler, so it only engaged at the rear (near the tensioner bearing) and moving the crank slightly to make sure the belt was tight. Obviously you have to revisit the position of the crank and idler to ensure they end up correctly aligned. Then it is easy to wrap around the front of the idler wheel and then around the tensioner and exhaust cam wheels, finally this left just a small amount of effort to go over the inlet cam wheel. Finally released the tensioner screw and as a check, turned the engine over by hand for a few times to ensure that the timing marks all aligned.

It will be a few weeks yet before I can fire up and see if all is ok.

One thing I did find, was there was no mention anywhere I could find of how to remove the tensioner bearing with the engine in situ.

Haynes tells you sort of with it out of the car, but could not see anything with it in, nor anything on this forum, so thought I would share my experience, it may help someone!

The tensioner bearing is located on a movable spring loaded plate which is held in place with one bolt and a stud. The bolt holds part of the spring and needs to be loosened off to allow the plate to move. The stud goes through the flange on the plate and through the centre of the tensioner bearing. The hole in the plate is much larger than the stud, allowing some movement of the plate as required. When in normal use, the nut on the stud is tightened up and fixes the plate in a specific position to tension the belt.

So, slacken off the tensioner nut and the bolt and you can now force the tensioner to release tension on the belt, lock off the nut again, then remove the belt. All well and good so far. Now to remove the bearing. Remove the nut and the three washers under it (varying sizes and the last one has a flange on it, keep them in the correct order for reassembly. It is now possible to ease the bearing off the flange of the plate, but it will foul the pulley of the water pump, so you have to get in with a spanner and slacken off the three bolts on the pulley. Not easy, but doable with patience. I suggest not removing them as they will be a pig to get back on due to the inner wing being in the way. You will have to wedge the pulley somehow to allow initial unscrewing of the bolts (and retightening). You can get in with a flat bladed screwdriver on the other bolts to provide some resistance or use some wood to wedge against the block etc, your choice. When the pulley is slackened off enough there is just enough room to slide the tensioner bearing out over the pulley and then over the stud, but it was very tight on mine.

Reassembly is a reverse of above, but when trying to put the tensioner bearing back on the flange of the plate I found it hard to get it to go on, so I put it on the flange slightly and then added the washers and the nut, starting with just one, tightening a little to push the bearing on and adding the rest as there was room on the stud. For the last flanged one I found it necessary to force the tensioner plate spring into compression to allow the washer to sit correctly against the tensioner bearing as the stud gets in the way when fully released.

That's it, fairly straight forward and whole thing should take 1-2 hours (if doing it for the second time), first time will take a while longer if you go down a few blind alleys like me.

Peter
 


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 15, 2013, 08:33:44 PM
it's time for a cambelt change on my Beta Spider 2000, so I thought I'd revive this tread  :)

My friendly local Fiat/Lancia specialist who looks after my car (and has about 20 old Fiat/Lancias/Alfas himself) tells me that the belt tensioner should also be replaced, as this is a weak point too.
Trouble is, he can't find one here in Switzerland and has so far failed to do so in mainland Europe.

So, my questions are:

- is replacing the tensioner important - or even essential?

- anyone where they are available? Somewhere in the UK?

I'd be very grateful if someone could help, as I'm too worried to drive the car at the mo.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on September 15, 2013, 08:51:24 PM
You can check the wheel for any play. The tensioner doesn't usually need changing every time. There are usually a couple on eBay though if you do need one. Otherwise the bearing itself can be changed (there's a thread on here about the size and how to do it somewhere.)


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on September 15, 2013, 08:59:35 PM
I would change it but you don't need to change the complete tensioner the bearing can be removed from its casing and the bearing itself is a readily available size from any bearing supplier, buy a good quality make though skf or fag for example.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 15, 2013, 09:33:39 PM
Sounds easy!

My mech said that the grease in the bearing can become dry and hard, resulting in failure. He's always talked about it as if the whole unit should be replaced.

How would i know what size bearing and what grease to use - and won't the casing itself be worn too?  ???


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: HFStuart on September 15, 2013, 09:52:29 PM
The casing is steel - it is not likely to be worn.

The bearing is the only part that needs to be replaced unless damage is obvious, it's designed that way not like more modern tensioners that are all one piece.

The bearing is a sealed type and replacement of the grease is not advised. Search tensioner on this forum I'm pretty sure the part number has been given before and any bearing factor will be able to sell you one. NB Make sure it's a premier brand such as FAG or SKF.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on September 15, 2013, 10:12:13 PM
Just to clarify the bearing is retained in its case by an interference fit plus a circlip, you need to remove the circlip before using a suitable method to remove the bearing, not sure if it can be pressed out as the casing is semi enclosed on one side. The casing is unlikely to be damaged unless the bearing has seized and turned inside which in your case will not be the situation. The new bearing will be supplied ready lubricated with rubber seals on either side of the races and will need to be pressed into the casing. Your garage should be able to do this. If they rarely service betas they may not be aware that the bearing is of a different style to those on tc fiats ( and for that matter montecarlo ), on these they are in one piece, all part of the joys of illogical Italian design variations!


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 15, 2013, 10:34:39 PM
Thanks for all the info, guys!

I'll have a search for the necessary bearing.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 15, 2013, 10:45:46 PM
Excellent!

I found the part number here:

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=418.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=418.0)

Sounds like  3205 A-2RS1TN9/MT33 is the best choice as it could offer you some warning before disaster strikes!

Are these the right ones - and does it only need one bearing for this?

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ball-bearings/2851692/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ball-bearings/2851692/)


Title: Re: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on September 15, 2013, 11:09:15 PM
Yes, just one and you should be able to buy it from any decent bearing stockist


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 15, 2013, 11:20:04 PM
I wonder if I can find it in Switzerland...

I'll see what my mech says.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on September 15, 2013, 11:54:42 PM
I wonder if I can find it in Switzerland...

I'll see what my mech says.
[/quote..]
It shouldn't be a problem the bearing is not special to Lancia, it is a generally available size

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 19, 2013, 04:35:30 PM
Sounds like  3205 A-2RS1TN9/MT33 is the best choice as it could offer you some warning before disaster strikes!

Are these the right ones - and does it only need one bearing for this?

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ball-bearings/2851692/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ball-bearings/2851692/)
Just checking before I pull the trigger and order this - that is the right one for a 1981 Beta Spider 2.0 litre - yes?

My mech says the big question is IF the bearing will come out of its casing...


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 19, 2013, 04:54:14 PM
I've ordered the 3205-A-2RS1TN9/MT33

Worth a try with just the bearing, as the whole unit is insanely priced  :o :o :o :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QH-TIMING-BELT-TENSIONER-PULLEY-RC493794P-TO-FIT-LANCIA-BETA-79-86-OE-QUALITY/290775543051?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D16581%26meid%3D1400258150337341753%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D7839%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D290775543051%26 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QH-TIMING-BELT-TENSIONER-PULLEY-RC493794P-TO-FIT-LANCIA-BETA-79-86-OE-QUALITY/290775543051?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D16581%26meid%3D1400258150337341753%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D7839%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D290775543051%26)


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: HFStuart on September 19, 2013, 07:31:51 PM
Your mechanic (and that ebay advert) are just wrong.

The bearing will come out easily, it's held in with a circlip, not an interference fit and even if it were stuck a press would make quick work of it.

That e-bay add is stupid, it's someone with no stock that doesn't want to have to remove the advert so they make the price way high so no-one buys it.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: peteracs on September 20, 2013, 06:32:06 AM
Hi

As Stuart says, the price is not real, redline do this regularly when they do not have stock, more realistic price is around 50 60.

Peter


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 16, 2017, 12:28:35 AM
The story continues!
Well, 4 years on and, with a belt tensioner purchased for my Spider 2000 a long time ago, I have now also managed to get hold of a new timing belt (from the UK, as no-one could find one here in Switzerland).

I had a look at the Haynes manual and this shows a special tool being used for aligning the timing markings and fitting the belt. For the 2000 engine, it is Lancia Tool No. 8801 3042
They say that the belt can be fitted without the tool but "great care needs to be taken". With the tool it "should present no problem".

However, they then go on to describe how they "had great difficulty in fitting the belt into the notches".

My old Fiat/Lancia mech can no longer do the work for me and I am going to entrust it to a garage who have worked on my Clio RS.
They are official Subaru and Toyota agents (they recently gave up their Renault agency because of the preposterous demands Renault made about showrooms and displays) but also work on older cars from various marks, including such as Jaguar, MG and even US vehicles.

Despite their competence as mechanics, they may never had a Lancia for a belt change before. I will leave the (English-language) Haynes manual for them, though they may not understand much of that. I think it may be wise to do a full translation for them, as sentences such as "Never move the camshaft drive wheels by more than 1 notch out of step with each other or the likelihood of series (presumably they mean "serious"?) damage being done to the engine by the valves lifting the pistons is very high indeed." sound rather important. Though perhaps that is obvious to an experienced mech even if they have never seen this engine type before.

Question:
Are there any tips, tricks "must do" or "do not" warnings for this procedure that even a competent operator who has not worked on this engine might not be aware of?
Please feel free to let me know your thoughts! Thanks!


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on September 16, 2017, 12:37:56 AM
The belt is relatively easy to fit, the alignment tool  is unnecessary just make sure all is aligned including the aux drive (very important on a 2000) even I can do it! Make sure you change the tensioner as well, you can k just replace the bearing that presses into the centre no need to buy a complete assembly (which is in any case difficult to find for a 2000 version) buy a quality bearing such as skf


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: HFStuart on September 16, 2017, 09:39:33 AM
If all else fails they can fit the cambelt the old fashioned way by measuring full lift in the cams and working out the position they should be in at TDC. Sounds complicated but it really isn't, it's just methodical.

The only trick with the twin cam is to position the aux shaft so it doesn't interfere with crank. I've no idea why Haynes makes such a fuss about the cambelt.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on September 16, 2017, 01:27:40 PM
I seem to recall that the Haynes Manual had bad instructions for the belt, better to refer them to this

http://www.lancisti.net/forum/content.php?3-Lancia-Beta-timing-belt-change-procedure-tips (http://www.lancisti.net/forum/content.php?3-Lancia-Beta-timing-belt-change-procedure-tips)


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 18, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
Make sure you change the tensioner as well
As I mentioned in the first sentence, I have a new tensioner.
no need to buy a complete assembly (which is in any case difficult to find for a 2000 version) buy a quality bearing such as skf
I hope that the complete assembly I bought a couple of years ago is the correct one!


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: speedyK on September 18, 2017, 10:41:58 AM
I seem to recall that the Haynes Manual had bad instructions for the belt, better to refer them to this

http://www.lancisti.net/forum/content.php?3-Lancia-Beta-timing-belt-change-procedure-tips (http://www.lancisti.net/forum/content.php?3-Lancia-Beta-timing-belt-change-procedure-tips)
Thanks for the link!  :)


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: flex on October 15, 2017, 05:54:02 PM
At the risk of embarrassing myself. I have been attempting this on a 2000ie. I have got as far as a new tensioner bearing (in the original housing) on there, but even with it fully slackened (to the point where I removed the spring and left the nut loose to check this), there just isn't enough space to put the new belt on. it is a 148tooth belt.
I put it around the crank (with all the pulleys still on), around the aux pulley, tensioner, exhaust and am left with about 6 teeth that it simply can't go over on the intake, even with a bit of rotating back an forth. the belt is tight everywhere, though i do have trouble getting it to sit properly on the aux, and I'm slowly loosing my sanity. The original belt is slightly closer but still not possible (just to check). the old one did require some effort to get off in the first place.

What am i missing, or should i just give up?
Cheers
Felix


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on October 15, 2017, 07:19:14 PM
I suspect you just have a bit of slack on the belt in some parts of the belt run, there's a bit of a knack to getting belts on. If you are having trouble keeping the belt really taught between pulleys try using cable ties to hold the belt on each pulley. Assuming it's the  correct belt it really well go on, make sure tensioner is completely backed off.


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: flex on October 15, 2017, 08:20:39 PM
I suspect you just have a bit of slack on the belt in some parts of the belt run, there's a bit of a knack to getting belts on. If you are having trouble keeping the belt really taught between pulleys try using cable ties to hold the belt on each pulley. Assuming it's the  correct belt it really well go on, make sure tensioner is completely backed off.

I think my problem is at the bottom, crank to aux pulley, where it is largely hidden behind the v belt pulleys. I will try again when i'm feeling competent!


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: flex on November 04, 2017, 10:59:52 PM
I suspect you just have a bit of slack on the belt in some parts of the belt run, there's a bit of a knack to getting belts on. If you are having trouble keeping the belt really taught between pulleys try using cable ties to hold the belt on each pulley. Assuming it's the  correct belt it really well go on, make sure tensioner is completely backed off.

I think my problem is at the bottom, crank to aux pulley, where it is largely hidden behind the v belt pulleys. I will try again when i'm feeling competent!

To let you know it was all ok in the end. replaced and running. The tensioner was pushed to what felt like a hard stop but with some careful leverage against the aux pulley, it went far enough to get the belt on.

In the end I used this method, as opposed to finishing on the intake cam:

Fully slacken off tensioner (as above) :P
Get belt around crank pulley and on teeth properly (hard to see with the  v belt pulleys in the way)
Pull tight across right hand side of aux pulley
Pull tight across intake cam pulley: if there is slack in the run to the aux, take up by slightly adjusting cam anticlockwise. hold in place
Put around exhaust cam pulley, as above take up any slack by turning pulley anti clockwise slightly. now hold belt in place here at around 10 o clock
Now working from the left hand side of the crank, make sure there is no slack to the left of the aux pulley (only a few teeth touch here, and access is hard with the v belt pulleys in the way)
Most of the slack is either now side of the tensioner, and the belt will just about go over it.
Release tensioner, turn over, check alignment. repeat this step until belt is properly tensioned.
To double check turn it over by hand to check the belt isn't wandering.

This is easier with a helper to hold the belt on the exhaust cam while you fit it over the tensioner, also helps to have flexible hands as you are working between the inner wing and tensioner. As far as fiddling with the cams, i aimed to venture no more than half a tooth from where they started, though it helps in insuring you get the belt on properly, then take up the slack, rather than trying to put it on fully tight.

Painted marks are useful to supplement the official marks, and pictures are great for checking that marks are lined up as before.

Probably not the right method: please correct me, but it hasn't broken yet!

I used a gates 5022 belt and a 3205A-2RS1TN9/MT33 SKF Double Row Angular Contact Bearing 25x52x20.6mm for the tensioner bearing
Cheers


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: Leo HPE 1979 on November 30, 2017, 03:38:51 PM
http://www.martinwillems-webshop.nl/shop/motor_10 (http://www.martinwillems-webshop.nl/shop/motor_10)
Here You can buy a complete new tensionrol for euro 27,50


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: rossocorsa on November 30, 2017, 10:03:31 PM
http://www.martinwillems-webshop.nl/shop/motor_10 (http://www.martinwillems-webshop.nl/shop/motor_10)
Here You can buy a complete new tensionrol for euro 27,50

I think this is only for Fiat style twin cams for instance 124, mirafiori or beta montecarlo


Title: Re: Replacing Cambelt
Post by: flex on December 03, 2017, 11:56:01 AM
http://www.martinwillems-webshop.nl/shop/motor_10 (http://www.martinwillems-webshop.nl/shop/motor_10)
Here You can buy a complete new tensionrol for euro 27,50

I think this is only for Fiat style twin cams for instance 124, mirafiori or beta montecarlo

Indeed. I had bought a QH belt kit QBK446 (Tensioner bearing, belt), described as suitable for the Beta. It came with the Fiat style bearing. I believe you can use one but you need the fiat tensioner plate to to use it (I have read this somewhere, but don't quote me on it) It certainly won't work with the beta tensioner plate. in picture: beta tensioner plate on left, standard beta tensioner bearing and pulley and fiat style one peice bearing/pulley on right.

If you have a the type i have (held in with circlip), you need something like the SKF bearing (around 30)

(https://mvgv6g-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4mOEjE27tI9ENC8vksZrEl7KOr44Umv-leXuo1Od-Z-6RxtGom-THBqfNtSLC1PotHpFTbspZ4rL3etcejxDIjI_pD3YzF9VSBlWGz2OVi7CjbY4h18T3hXzk4qVOxJA8p6vT5Eyeeq0TAtCUJvBmixPBKxHrM2V24O977g-dNvRq0MeXBlWaQ-gDZZbUekM0MOvSjtOPlHMlGviPVm6HbbA?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)