Lancia Beta Forum

General Category => Group Buys => Topic started by: mangocrazy on December 26, 2012, 02:56:27 PM



Title: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 26, 2012, 02:56:27 PM
Hi all,

I'm seriously toying with the idea of getting the Beta top water rail re-manufactured, as I've been told of a local engineering firm that specialise in just this kind of thing. It won't be an exact copy of the original - rather I would want to incorporate as many modifications/improvements in the design as possible. Material would be stainless steel throughout, probably 316/A4 although 304/A2 would probably be adequate, unless anyone can suggest better. It would be designed to work with an 'in-head' thermostat rather than the outboard one, so will not have the extra small outlet welded onto the main rail.

My main concern is - what model of original part should I base it on? I have a spare top rail from a carbed model, but I believe the VX top rail was further modified. Does anyone have comparative photos of these parts? Also, which is the best design to use as a template, or is it likely we will need two variants? I would want to avoid this if at all possible, as it will only add to the overall cost.

As of now I have no idea of cost, or even if this company would be prepared to take on the work, but I'll be contacting them early in the New Year to find out if the idea has legs or not. But before I approach them, I want to have most (if not all) of the variables sorted. Any comments or suggestions very welcome.



Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 26, 2012, 05:59:56 PM
I think spec should be as per volumex with the extra pressure reducing by pass to protect the head gasket


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: thecolonel on December 26, 2012, 09:34:21 PM
I would suggest using one from a injection engine as these
have additional sensors, which could have blanking plugs
installed for carb cars.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 26, 2012, 09:46:49 PM
Can of worms, duly opened...  ;D

Could anyone post up pictures of a VX top rail and an i.e. top rail for reference (I already have the carb version to hand). Pardon my ignorance, but does the i.e. version also have the extra take-off that the VX rail has?

Cheers.


Title: Re: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 26, 2012, 10:21:32 PM
That's a question that I don't know the answer to either! Will try to check the microfiche


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: MattNoVAT on December 26, 2012, 10:24:21 PM
I thought only late VX models had the extra outlet by No.4 cylinder.


Title: Re: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 26, 2012, 11:18:58 PM
Not sure but I think all vx had it not sure about ie


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: MattNoVAT on December 27, 2012, 12:11:57 AM
I have definitely seen VXs without the extra outlet


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: MattNoVAT on December 27, 2012, 11:58:37 AM
I could get these re-made but the ideal solution would be to have a number of old ones, these would have the base cut off and new stainless steel pipes bent to shape and welded to the original base.

If they were remade from scratch then they get more expensive to remake as the base that bolts onto the head would make the job bigger.

I'll buy myself a lathe one of these days and make stuff like this myself.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2012, 12:00:38 PM
My VX was built in May 1983 and has the modified pipe.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bd32v1x1l5bfxl/83waterpumpandlines.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bd32v1x1l5bfxl/83waterpumpandlines.JPG)

there doesn't seem to be a vx specific option (it would be annotated 0930)? Having said that the illustration doesn't show the extra outlets but these pictures on microfiche are not always accurate maybe they were all the same on FL2 cars? 0085 refers to injection so that is the version with extra holes for the sensors. The other variation is for Swiss market (possibly carb 2000 not sure) this has a part modification C7688/D7688 this was a modification for swiss cars for model year 83 but it doesn't clarify what/why. I checked on Trevi as well and same part numbers appear

I checked series 2 FL microfiche as well and the top pipe is 82285678  same as listed for later cars!

possibly I need to fish around the microfiche a bit more as some variations show on separate pages, haven't really any more time to waste today might look later.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2012, 12:05:54 PM
I could get these re-made but the ideal solution would be to have a number of old ones, these would have the base cut off and new stainless steel pipes bent to shape and welded to the original base.

If they were remade from scratch then they get more expensive to remake as the base that bolts onto the head would make the job bigger.

I'll buy myself a lathe one of these days and make stuff like this myself.

Doesn't the base need modifying anyway if using an in head stat? I think all new would be more elegant it kind of depends how many could be sold as to viability. Ideally a rusted out VX pipe is needed to use as a pattern plus a further one off an ie so as to arrive at the hybrid one size fits all design not easy to find even rusted out these days!!


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: HFStuart on December 27, 2012, 01:08:45 PM
yes it does need modyfying to suit a head stat.

While I'm on I'd advocate using 316 - 304 can and will corrode with heat and salts.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 27, 2012, 06:03:58 PM
Thanks for all the comments - I'll speak to the company in the New Year when they're back from the break. I agree that 316 would be the best material - I doubt that the price differential on material over 304 would be much, it's the fabrication that will cost the money. As others have said, re-manufacturing the part gives us the chance to improve on the original in a number of areas; designing it to work with a thermostat, adding in the bosses for sensors, and adding the extra VX-style takeoff.

And while stainless can be welded to mild steel with the correct wire/filler rod, it would look much better if properly TIG welded up in all stainless. Properly polished, it would add a bit of bling to the under-bonnet area, as well...   ;D


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2012, 06:09:20 PM
Guy croft modifies the rails for in head stats so he would be able to advise the modification required, I do wonder though if the standard stat may be better for normal driving?


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 27, 2012, 06:17:23 PM
You can get a Unipart replacement stat in the same temperature range as the original - it's just that a lot of people use the 'hot climate' option with the modified top rail. The part numbers are GTS 102 for hot climate and GTS 104 for temperate climate, if memory serves me correctly.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2012, 06:26:57 PM
yes I get the idea just thinking that for normal road use the hotter stat is probably fine plus, if I remember correctly, the original stat has some kind of blending function to assist warm up?  However if the mod can be done such that the in head stat can be left out if preferred that would make sense. The hot climate stat is set to 74 degees which seems terribly cold to me for a road car?


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 27, 2012, 06:40:25 PM
As I see it, the flange on the water rail that fits into the cylinder head just needs to be of a suitable size for an in-head stat to be fitted if required. If it's not required, it could be omitted with absolutely no ill effects. I think the flange only needs relieving by a few mm to accept the stat, so not fitting a stat really shouldn't be a problem.

74C seems a bit cool to me, as well, but GC is adamant that it's the way to go. I think the stat closes at 74C, and opens again at 82C, so the actual water temp will always be somewhere between those two values.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: HFStuart on December 27, 2012, 08:04:49 PM
To be fair to Guy it might be the way to go for a race engine  - but that doesn't make it ideal for a road engine. With the standard carb I've always found my Betas to have quite a flat spot until they were fully hot at about 85 deg.


Title: Re: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 27, 2012, 08:50:38 PM
I think the standard stat starts to open at about 80 degrees and isn't fully open until about 95


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on December 28, 2012, 08:00:57 PM
This is from a VX. I assume it to be correct- it was fitted to my HPE VX 1984 model. It is perforated here and there so only usable as a pattern to take dimensions from really- I am happy to send it to you Mangocrazy if you want to use it in this way. I think it's a great idea to have it re-made, especially in stainless. I'm a little terrified at the thought of the end product purchase price though...

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 28, 2012, 11:44:47 PM
Hi Andrew,

That looks absolutely perfect for my purposes. I'll PM you with my address, if you're prepared to send it to me. I tried ringing the firm today, but as expected they're on holiday. To be honest I doubt if things will really get back to normal until the 2nd week of January. I sent them some webmail indicating my interest so as soon as they reply I'll get on the case.

What those pictures do show is just how many variants there were. I have the carbed model, which is the most 'bare bones' of the lot, then there's your VX version, then there's the i.e. version with bosses welded in for sensors. By the time we've finished the poor thing will look like a bloody porcupine...

I'm trying not to think about the cost right now...


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 29, 2012, 11:27:08 AM
as i understand it the pipe to the thermostat needs removing if you go in head stat that would simplify any production quite a lot! Also GC advocates drilling a bleed hole in the stat to avoid air locks etc this would mean in practice that the stat would run even cooler. I know from peoples experience of fitting in line stats to Rover 75/MG ZT diesels (where the idea was to get the engine as hot and efficient as possible) that fitting a stat with a bleed hole significantly lowered the running temperature as flow is never really fully cut off).
Still not really sure if this is a good idea for road use though as the standard stat appears designed to improve warm up etc. but of course the standard stats may become unobtainable in the future in which case it may well be the only way.
I guess the additional bosses from the ie model may well prove useful if anyone wants to add a more accurate temperature guage to an earlier car

so my thoughts are overall that best option would be top pipe with inline stat mod (so pipe to stat deleted at the other end) and extra bosses for the ie model (perhaps with removable blanks fitted.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 29, 2012, 10:38:44 PM
I agree that we need to remove the feed to the outboard stat; I think that will simplify matters quite a bit. However there are a couple of things I'm not too sure about. With relation to the i.e. top rail, does anyone have a picture of one or better yet, a rusted out one that we could use as a template? I will need to know where on the rail the sensor bosses are supposed to go.

With respect to the VX top rail, I've drawn on Andrew's first pic (see below):

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/topwaterrail001.jpg)

I presume that the #1 outlet goes to the cylinder head in the region of cylinder #4. Do all variants of Beta heads have a connection/spigot that this top rail outlet can connect to? Also, I presume that outlet #2 goes to the heater matrix. What changes would be needed to carb or i.e. plumbing to make use of this outlet?

I'm interested in trying to provide either a 'one size fits all', or preferably a 'best of breed' item here, so it's important to understand the differences between models/variants amd decide which options are best.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: WestonE on December 30, 2012, 10:41:58 AM
Graham

All non IE Beta Variants can use the VX top rail and it is a great reliability mod as it protects the head gasket. I think you build this VX version in stainless with an option to delete the small external stat feed. Most road cars do not need the 74 degree stat and people like car builder solutions offer alternative external stats that might be used. However if you want to build a fast road version you delete the external stat small pipe and use an 82 degree in head stat which is GC's winter recommendation. I used this temp all year in my first fast road twin carb Montecarlo which had 160BHP and I had a small bypass hole in the stat 1.5 mm from memory.

Too cold on a road car can soot the plugs and increase engine load.
 
To simplify making this you just have this sample remade and with the inlet from the head wider so it sits over an in head stat. BTW have you noticed the top rail is a smaller diameter than the lower water rail?

Eric   


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on December 30, 2012, 10:47:52 AM
It's great that the Forum gets things like this going. Is a generic part going to be practical though? Won't it end up being a bit of a hedgehog with four or five take offs most of which will be blanked off on a standard carbed car (which most of us have)? Ditching the in-line thermostat all together as mentioned above would also be a turn off for anyone wanting to maintain originality and cut down potential orders.

Overall this is a great idea but I'm not convinced it's doable as a single part and might be best split between series 3 (sic) and pre series 3 if that still leaves it viable?


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: WestonE on December 30, 2012, 10:56:41 AM
Neil

A fair point on originality which is why having the small stat pipe in place that can be deleted works as it keeps the OE stat. The head heater connection mod as shown on the VX rail is incredibly easy and valuable to ALL Series (IE still need extra bits) as it reduces head gasket failure at Number 4 through limited cooling in summer at that end of the head unless the heater is on. I know all beta owners like to be warm but few run the heater all summer!!

With this built you end up with a VX/Carb top rail (option delete small stat pipe and an IE top rail if there is demand for it.

Eric


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: droptop on December 30, 2012, 01:47:19 PM
I fitted a VX top rail to my 1978 spyder only two days ago and I'm now going to hunt for a back rail as mine was split when I got the car and I had it TIG welded but the hose ends are corroded and I've never been entirely confident of it.
The VX rail was in pristine condition and when I removed my old rail, the hose ends had corroded quite a lot in the couple of years since I treated them when recomissioning the car.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 31, 2012, 12:46:43 PM
I agree with Eric's summary of what we should be asking for/offering:

1. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat).
2. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat and deleted pipe to external stat.
3. i.e.-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat). ** N.B - I will need an example of this variant to show the fabricators. **

All above to be fabricated in 316 stainless.

Is there general agreement on this?

At some point we will need to ask for an indication of demand, although I think it would be best to get some kind of guide price before we do that.

I have to say I'm blithely unaware of a bottom or back water rail - are these also made in mild steel and should we be looking at re-making this in stainless as well? And are there multiple variants of this?


Title: Re: Re: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on December 31, 2012, 03:54:07 PM
I agree with Eric's summary of what we should be asking for/offering:

1. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat).
2. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat and deleted pipe to external stat.
3. i.e.-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat). ** N.B - I will need an example of this variant to show the fabricators. **

All above to be fabricated in 316 stainless.

Is there general agreement on this?

At some point we will need to ask for an indication of demand, although I think it would be best to get some kind of guide price before we do that.

I have to say I'm blithely unaware of a bottom or back water rail - are these also made in mild steel and should we be looking at re-making this in stainless as well? And are there multiple variants of this?
Definitely need to look at the lower pipe too,  not sure if there are any variations on these or not if I get time I will investigate the microfiche and parts books.  I have been pondering the stat  situation maybe it is possible to remove the internals from the normal stat body in which case the extra pipe could be retained and it would look original,  this might make a better option than making with or without as it will be best to keep it simple? So anyone know if that is possible?  Secondly it may be wise to look at two finishes one plain stainless for those who want to paint or powder coat for originality and polished for those who want to look flash? It may be a case of asking what the majority prefer (I suspect powder coated would be most popular)
I think volumes will be quite low many people will choose to soldier on with their existing pipes particularly given that the cars are not worth a lot essentially budget classics.  For that reason the number of variations does need to be kept low if it's to make sense

Sent from my MOMO11 bird using Tapatalk 2


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 31, 2012, 04:09:00 PM
To be honest, if people want to polish or powder coat the parts, then I think that is down to them. I'd want to keep the number of variants down to a realistic minimum. I quite like the idea of removing the guts from the standard stat - that way originality is preserved and no extra plumbing changes are required.

But we definitely need to look at the bottom rail as well, by the sound of it.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on December 31, 2012, 04:58:56 PM
...we definitely need to look at the bottom rail as well, by the sound of it.

I have one of these too, from my spare VX engine. You want me to send it to you?

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on December 31, 2012, 05:27:52 PM
Andrew, you're a star. yes please...


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on December 31, 2012, 06:33:07 PM
Ok. This one is still on my spare engine- it looks at a glance to be in good shape so I'll probably want this one back when you've finished with it. I have no idea if the VX bottom rail is different from the other variants- anyone know?
I'll remove it and send it up with the top rail during this next week.
Hope I'm in for a nice discount when you've got 'em done...  ;) ;D ...and hoping that I can even afford the discounted price... :o ;D

Here's to a rustfree future for the Beta... cooling system at least...  :D

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: droptop on December 31, 2012, 08:38:46 PM
I agree with Eric's summary of what we should be asking for/offering:

1. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat).
2. VX-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat and deleted pipe to external stat.
3. i.e.-spec top rail with enlarged inlet to cater for in-head stat (retain pipe to external stat). ** N.B - I will need an example of this variant to show the fabricators. **

All above to be fabricated in 316 stainless.

Is there general agreement on this?

At some point we will need to ask for an indication of demand, although I think it would be best to get some kind of guide price before we do that.

I have to say I'm blithely unaware of a bottom or back water rail - are these also made in mild steel and should we be looking at re-making this in stainless as well? And are there multiple variants of this?

Re. the rear coolant rail.
Maybe I don't have the correct description/name but it's the pipe that runs from the water pump along the back (side) of the block between the engine and bulkhead under the exhaust manifold and connects the heater inlet hose and the radaitor bottom hose.
Attached is a pic of an old one I have


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on January 06, 2013, 12:08:49 AM
Cheers, I'll compare that to the item that spud (Andrew) is sending me at present. More good news - I've just discovered that I actually have an i.e. top water rail on the spare i.e. engine I bought a year or so ago that is languishing in my lockup garage. I didn't have time to remove it today, but should be able to retrieve it next weekend. We should then have a full set; carb, VX and i.e.  - yay!


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on January 09, 2013, 04:54:03 PM
I spoke to the guy at Direct Fabs today (Mark Penrose) and he said that making and bending the flange would be no problem, and neither would bending the tube. He did question why we needed to use 316 stainless, as his view was that 304 would last 30 years at least. I said that these cars are nearly all at least 30 years old, so long-term viability was an issue. 304 would be cheaper, obviously. So far, so good.

However the part of the fabrication that does give Mark a problem is the bead forming on all the tube ends that have a rubber hose attached. Running without a bead is a complete no-no (the hose just blows off), and he is not set up to roll beads on tubing; it has to be farmed out. The problem is in the cost of setting up a bead roller for low-volume production (which this is). There are also multiple beads on different sizes of tubing required, and the beads need to be rolled before the tube is welded or formed.

So any suggestions as to how this problem might be overcome? For very low volume production it might be feasible to run a bead of weld round the end of the pipe, but that would be very labour-intensive. The obvious answer would be to find a supplier that can do the tube beading, welding, bending, flange cutting and forming all in house - but I don't know of any such supplier.

Time to put your lateral thinking caps on, chaps...


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: MattNoVAT on January 09, 2013, 05:23:11 PM
GB Engineering in Odiham, Hants can do all that including the bead.

Bend, weld, put on the beads etc the whole shooting match.

I watched them put the bead onto about 20 cooling pipes for some model of Ferrari only last week.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on January 10, 2013, 12:28:29 AM
Hi Matt,

That sounds like a better solution. As soon as you start farming work out the price goes up exponentially. Do you have a contact name/number/email address for the firm or alternatively would you  be prepared to make an initial advance to them? I fully understand if you can't for whatever reason.

Mark did say he'd have a think and see if he can come up with a solution, but I think getting the whole thing done under one roof is the way to go.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: MattNoVAT on January 10, 2013, 11:02:59 AM
I will be there (GB Engineering) on Friday so I will speak with Graham the owner about the project. 

I've known Graham for years as he did a lot of the original fabrication on the Hawk Startos, he still does a large amount of work for numerous Hawk Stratos owner as well as original AC Cobra, GT40's and all sorts of vintage and italian exotica.  He's done all my fabrication for me for both my Hawks and my Betas over the past 15 years.  He's an old school engineer who does things properly!

Due to my current circumstance I will not have the time to manage / oversee the project but I will discuss with him tomorrow and then put you two in contact.  Is it OK if I pass him your mobile & email details (please PM them to me to make sure I have current/correct details)

Cheers 


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on January 20, 2013, 03:57:57 PM
Just to keep everybody up to date - the Sheffield fabricator hasn't got back to me, so I'm assuming that avenue is effectively closed. However I've been in touch with Matt's man in Hampshire, Graham Bates and he seems to think it's all perfectly doable, which is very encouraging.

Andrew (spud) has very kindly sent me a VX top rail and bottom rail (which I believe to be common across all variants), and I've found an i.e. rail in my random collection of parts, so these three pieces of rusty metal will be heading off to GB Engineering some time next week. I've requested that the bore of the main flange be increased from 30mm to 40mm, which will comfortably accomodate an in-head thermostat and the 3mm bleed hole that Guy Croft recommends.

Graham reckons that the best way to proceed will be to have a base spec top rail, with extra cost options available to suit. Base spec will be VX top rail with the secondary pipe deleted (in other words, using in-head stat and remove external stat from plumbing entirely). For those who wish to keep the external stat (whether for appearance or by preference), the secondary outlet will be an option, as will the sensor bosses and bracket for the i.e. variant.

I'm assuming that everyone will require the extra VX inlet/outlet on the top rail? Is there any requirement for the original carbed variant with the unmolested top rail? I can't see the point myself, but if needed it should be the cheapest of the lot. Anyway, once I get an indication of a likely price, I'll let you know.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on January 25, 2013, 10:47:36 PM
Three rusty pipes were today sent to GB Engineering. I'll keep you posted on progress (or not) here...


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on February 05, 2013, 01:12:12 PM
I rang up Graham Bates today and he's started working out a price. As far as he can tell so far (and he's still waiting on prices for some of the brackets that will need to be laser-cut), the cost of a top water rail (VX style) will be around 130 - 150. This will be in stainless (not entirely sure of grade, but I requested 316). I'd appreciate an indication of how people view that, so as to know whether to proceed or not.

The back/bottom pipe is not so easy, strange as it may seem, and may be more problematic and more expensive. The pipe diameter is larger (1 3/8" as opposed to 1 1/4" for the top rail) and the bends are trickier.

Graham Bates is working on a jig for the top rail(s), and we have the option of buying the jigs, which will be about 350-ish. If we buy the jigs, then he will only make parts to order from them for us. I'm not sure on the benefits or otherwise of this.

So - how does 130 - 150 for a top water rail in stainless sound? Personally I think it sounds very fair. It was never going to be cheap and should last the life of the car.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: MattNoVAT on February 05, 2013, 02:35:05 PM
Good old Lancia - why keep pipes a consistent size when you can make them different  ;D  I had thought the bends on the rear water rail would complicate matters just because of the shape, I was not aware they were a different size.

Price sounds about what I would expect it to be for an item such as this in S/Steel.

As for the jig / tooling, the benefit is that you get a consistent item being made and you dont have to pay extra to have each one handmade from scratch.  Yes, its a bit of extra cost up front but if your going to be making them in batches it keeps the cost down in the longer run.   I own the tooling for the rear spring cups and the Coupe inner wing splash panels.  I can make them to order when I feel like it or when there is sufficient demand.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on February 05, 2013, 06:01:10 PM
So - how does 130 - 150 for a top water rail in stainless sound?

Sounds great to me... well done!

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on February 05, 2013, 06:12:22 PM
Matt, I'm not sure if that's what was meant by buying the jig. The way I understand it is that there will be a jig manufactured to make the water rail. The jig will then exist for Graham Bates to manufacture the water rail and sell the water rail to anyone he chooses. If we, as in however many of us want to chip in for it, choose to buy the jig, then Graham Bates will only manufacture water rails for us, therefore creating a 'point of sale' by making it exclusively available as a retail item from us, rather than him.
I may be wrong of course, but that's how I'm reading it. Please, Mangocrazy, correct me if I'm wrong!

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: MattNoVAT on February 05, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
That's absolutely correct.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on February 05, 2013, 06:30:19 PM
Yes, that's the way I understand it, Andrew. I'm not worrying myself about it just yet, but I think longer term we should look to own the jig. It will stay at GB Engineering, but means that repeat orders are simple and the price shouldn't alter too much (assuming cost of raw materials stays reasonably constant).

In a fairly cosmic coincidence, I found a NOS top water rail in Italy and asked how much it would cost - 120 plus 30 carriage. So GB's ballpark figure of 130-150 for a stainless item looks quite appealing...!


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on February 05, 2013, 09:36:33 PM
In principle the price seems fine, whether I can dig that deep in my pockets I'm not sure so many other expenses on the Beta even though it is not actually progressing that I have to keep tight control on nice but not absolutely essential frivolities (and ebay impulse buys!). Is that price including VAT by the way? Anyway if I can stretch to it I will be up for a set. 


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on April 29, 2013, 10:21:07 PM
Any progress?

Just wonderin'...  :)

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on May 05, 2013, 10:10:53 PM
Hi Andrew,

'fraid not... I must admit I've let it slip, and haven't been chasing progress. I'm currently at the moneypit in France with only limited internet access, but will get the process moving again when I return to UK in mid-May.

Thanks for the reminder...

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on May 06, 2013, 07:14:31 PM
No problem Graham, we all have lives to live outside of our Lancia bubble!  :)

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on June 11, 2013, 07:06:52 PM
I've been in touch with GB Engineering (in fact he contacted me, which was a good reminder) and GB will provide me with a more accurate quote; previous estimate was 120-150. There won't be any VAT as he is (mercifully) not VAT-registered. As soon as he gets back with prices (and minimum order quantity) I'lll post it up.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on June 23, 2014, 12:48:22 AM
Any news?


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: dommorello on July 21, 2014, 03:48:06 AM
Any update on this post ??

we are also in need of top & bottom water rails for s2 coupe

Not having any luck trying to source - any ideas????


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: peteracs on July 21, 2014, 07:05:05 AM
Hi

Are these what you are looking for?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Zagato-Coupe-Upper-Cooling-Pipe-1979-/181465309154?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a402cdfe2 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Zagato-Coupe-Upper-Cooling-Pipe-1979-/181465309154?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a402cdfe2)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Zagato-Coupe-Lower-Cooling-Pipe-1979-/171386303389?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27e76b739d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Zagato-Coupe-Lower-Cooling-Pipe-1979-/171386303389?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27e76b739d)

Just ending as I write this, but no bids yet.

Peter


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: dommorello on July 23, 2014, 12:03:31 PM
Thanks


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on August 07, 2014, 11:15:53 AM
Two full sets on UK ebay at the moment, one set is chromed.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Twin-Cam-TC-top-and-bottom-water-rails-/301270311351?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item46251c21b7 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Twin-Cam-TC-top-and-bottom-water-rails-/301270311351?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item46251c21b7)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Twin-Cam-TC-top-and-bottom-chromed-water-rails-/301270300459?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item46251bf72b (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Twin-Cam-TC-top-and-bottom-chromed-water-rails-/301270300459?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item46251bf72b)


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: spud on August 13, 2014, 12:35:00 AM
Chrome one will look pretty when fitted.
These are getting scarce now in good condition; was really hoping we would've had remanufactured parts sorted for these by now, as per this thread's beginnings way back when...

Andrew.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: mangocrazy on August 13, 2014, 10:53:19 PM
Hi All,

Sorry about this; I've been tied up with all sorts of other stuff for what has seemed like ages. I'll get in touch with GB Engineering and try to pick up the pieces. Apologies again.

Graham


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: GerardJPC on September 12, 2014, 07:21:00 AM
Did this happen?  I need one for a 1300.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: GerardJPC on October 25, 2014, 06:30:43 PM
I now have one of these spare.  You can buy them from South Africa. 


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on October 25, 2014, 07:27:54 PM
New or used? Mild or stainless? Early or late head gasket friendly vx style? More importantly what price and where from (felix?)?


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: GerardJPC on October 31, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
I got a black painted mild steel one for my 1300 from Felix.  I will have to check what I paid, but it wasn't much. 


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: GerardJPC on October 31, 2014, 02:13:45 PM
371 rand, approx 22, plus shipping from SA.


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: rossocorsa on October 31, 2014, 03:45:10 PM
second hand I presume?


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: arguti on October 31, 2014, 08:19:28 PM
371 rand, approx 22, plus shipping from SA.

If new, please pm me any re any relevant details as trying to ship,a car or two from Cape town and quite happy to throw some spares in the boot As I also need some bits and pieces !

Thanks stephen


Title: Re: Beta Top Water Rail - what specification for remanufacture?
Post by: GerardJPC on November 01, 2014, 10:10:25 AM
It looks new, but may just have had a coat of paint.  It's on the car now.