Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Steering => Topic started by: archigraphe on September 02, 2012, 06:59:05 PM



Title: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: archigraphe on September 02, 2012, 06:59:05 PM
Hi to all,

I'm looking after a new steering damper for a manual TRW steering rack.

The part number is 82321319 , and is compatible with serie 2 and late manual steering rack.

As many vendor inform me this damper are not available, I'm questionning for converts another damper like this

http://www.mecatechnic.com/Amortisseur-de-direction~Pieces-pour-Cox--derives~Direction~Direction-1200---1300---1500~FR-COX-DIR-120-AMO.htm (http://www.mecatechnic.com/Amortisseur-de-direction~Pieces-pour-Cox--derives~Direction~Direction-1200---1300---1500~FR-COX-DIR-120-AMO.htm)

to fit on our car...

Other member have return about this conversion ?

Thank s for your return.


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on September 02, 2012, 08:02:16 PM
Unfortunately, the VW dampers will not work on the Beta, there is not enough damper travel from lock to lock.

I have tried three different VW dampers, they all have 140mm of travel and the Beta requires 170mm of travel.

I am still looking for an alternative part, but have been busy with work, and preparing to emigrate permanently to France.


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on September 02, 2012, 08:05:24 PM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Coupe-HPE-Spider-VX-NEW-STEERING-DAMPER-ORIGINAL-/310430401294?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item484718030e (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Coupe-HPE-Spider-VX-NEW-STEERING-DAMPER-ORIGINAL-/310430401294?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item484718030e)


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: archigraphe on September 02, 2012, 08:44:04 PM
Yes I've notice this item...

It seem to me , humm, a little high in price with the proposed postage cost.

But I conserve this announce in memory....

In another forum I read that the bmw serie 3 was equipped with damper it have a similar travel...

Information about?



Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on September 02, 2012, 08:51:26 PM
Expensive but if you really need one .........


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on September 02, 2012, 09:23:39 PM
If you can tell me the model of BMW then I can research - but I have heard this before (that a BMW damper may be used) but I recall that it did not have enough travel.

I think it was maybe E30 / E34 possibly.

I have checked with Stabilus in Germany, the company who made the original Beta steering damper and I was told that they did not make anything suitable.  Of course the person I spoke to may not have wanted to help me very much... I will continue to look.

But even New old Stock like the one on Ebay will be 30 years old... which means 30 year old seals!!  So 50 and it might only last one month..who knows?

I would prefer something that was manufactured recently.


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on September 02, 2012, 10:18:24 PM
My experience of modern after market parts is not that good the worst quality they've ever been , you are  probably right that  new old stock is a risk but at least it's exactly right and with old fashioned build quality........with unobtainium sometimes you have to take a risk
As regards stabilus I would very much doubt that they would recommend anything they hadn't tested themselves so I suppose it is possible that there is something that could be adapted


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: archigraphe on September 03, 2012, 01:44:54 PM
So as Mattnovat mentioned, the vw : beetle or combi have short travel....

For the BMW I'dont know what model exactly, and here in France the scrapyard are'nt today accessible to public....

For Lancia the dim of the damper :

STABILUX 000493  51/88 E02
Length : (eye to end strut) 465mm
Min Length : (eye to end strut) 305mm

Travel : 165mm

The BMW E21 , E30 Steering Damper seems to have this dim :

Lenght : 459.5mm
cylinder ??? : 160mm

Ref ; 32111118616

Stabilus online catalog present's different product

the stab o shock HD 24 have near dimension as our damper :


  travel / stroke 200 mm
Length    498 mm
so Min lengthe : 298mm
Strenght N    650, 1500, 5000
Ref 4212ZA, 4213ZW, and 4214ZR


Looking after this Damper, I'm questionning renewing the engine Damper...??? :-\







Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: thecolonel on September 03, 2012, 02:07:39 PM
What about the company that rebuild the gas struts
for the rear tailgate, have they been approached to
see of they can rebuild the steering dampers.


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on September 03, 2012, 02:27:43 PM
Do you know the name of the company Geoff?


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: thecolonel on September 03, 2012, 05:07:58 PM
Under - Members cars - Living with a Trevi, as far as I can remember
Should come up under a search for " gas struts "


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: mtulloch on September 03, 2012, 08:28:13 PM
I've got tailgate dampers on my VX made by GSE from Bedford. Telephone no. is 01234 843979.


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on September 04, 2012, 11:24:38 AM
So whichever way this goes I don't think there is going to be a "cheap" solution to this.

1. Any non OEM part will need modification... i.e. Most likely TIG welded bush eyes to at least one end.  A BMW part "might" work but it is 60 plus shipping, then requires modification so could be a an expensive "give it a try" effort and it may not work at the end!

2. Buy a NOS item and trust the seals (50)

3. Refurbish the original.  So far I cannot find a company that would do that but I am still looking into that.


Title: Re: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on September 05, 2012, 10:04:43 PM
If I was needing one of these i'd  go for the nos option the seals have not been exposed to light and will not be worn so ought to be worth the gamble

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Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: millieman on September 05, 2012, 10:28:03 PM
Hi are you after a manual rack damper.


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on September 05, 2012, 10:54:44 PM
I am looking at a new alternative part that will replace the OEM version.

While there are the odd few NOS which could be purchased, at ever increasing cost, there are more Betas on the road than there are new original steering dampers.  Personally I would not use second hand dampers as they are an unknown quantity and could pop their seals ten minutes after fitting, making the whole effort a waste of time & money.

My point being that if a readily available and cost effective alternative part can be found then this has better than having a failed steering damper fitted that is not performing the job it's designed for.

If we look at the recent engine damper group buy, there were 24 people took advantage and 32 sets were purchased, in total.  I'm not normally a betting man but I'd bet strong money on the fact that there ain't 32 NOS original steering dampers out there.  

Currently I know where there are three!


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: archigraphe on September 06, 2012, 09:40:05 AM
Hi Matt,

Yesterday un mesured the effective travel on the manual rack....

And on the car from left to right, I mesured a total travel of the steering rack from 10cm....

So...this is less as the out fo car travel which are 16cm as you note precedently..

The vw combi damper have a compressed length of 30cm, and a decompressed length of 42.5, the travel is 12.5.

Its'look to be enough as the travel of the original beta damper.

Next week I hope to buy a std Damper to make adaptation fitting on our car.


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on September 06, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
I have already purchased VW Kombi, VW Transporter and VW T2 steering dampers and none of these work!

I can sell them to you if you want to  try for yourself,  ;D ;D but I spent two days trying different modifications..... none worked.

You cannot obtain full right hand lock because the damper runs out of travel before the steering rack reaches the full extent of its travel, so the damper is definitely too short.



Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: archigraphe on September 28, 2012, 04:43:03 PM
Oups.....so  I hadn't read your answer, and now I'm with a superb combi steering Damper... :-\

Curiously on my car ( a 84 shell now with a manual steering LHD) the original damper doesn't travel all the stroke....

The damper , I've just bought, Is shorter than the length of the original close : 26cm vs 27.5 cm...

ANd fully open : (eye to eye) 39.5cm vs 44cm....

But in fact .... in situ, on the rack.... the real stroke of the damper is 10cm

The real lenght needed by the damper is 37.5cm  as can do the combi damper...

After is the conversion of the eye into bolt...

For your information, in the "fantastic manual you "dropboxed"... they were two damper from two manufacturer,

Stabilus
And Way-assauto

the open lengtht of the way-assauto is shorter than the stabilus, 41,15 cm vs 43,05 cm...


so just 1.5 cm close or open from the combi damper...

I'm looking this week with my neighbour who are a weldering sculptor....



Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: HFStuart on June 22, 2013, 10:37:37 AM
Ricambi in the Netherlands has new steering rack dampers at $69

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Coupe-HPE-Spider-STEERING-DAMPER-NOS-NEW-/121128241309?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c33ce489d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Coupe-HPE-Spider-STEERING-DAMPER-NOS-NEW-/121128241309?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c33ce489d)

I bought one and it's correct. Interestingly it came in new sealed SEAT packaging


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: peteracs on June 22, 2013, 06:04:12 PM
Ricambi in the Netherlands has new steering rack dampers at $69

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Coupe-HPE-Spider-STEERING-DAMPER-NOS-NEW-/121128241309?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c33ce489d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Beta-Coupe-HPE-Spider-STEERING-DAMPER-NOS-NEW-/121128241309?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c33ce489d)

I bought one and it's correct. Interestingly it came in new sealed SEAT packaging

Hi Stuart

Do you have the SEAT p/n?

Peter


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: HFStuart on June 23, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
Sadly there's no part numbers on the packaging at all - just the usual stuff on the damper itself


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on June 23, 2013, 11:25:30 AM
dont forget that Seat built Betas! possibly old stock from spain but I doubt if Seat can supply these days


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: HFStuart on June 23, 2013, 03:53:50 PM
They did?

I thought they were just Fiat under license

Tell me more!


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on June 23, 2013, 04:09:38 PM
series 2 fl coupe and hpe late 70s or early 80s  1919cm3 engine otherwise same as Italian ones


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on June 25, 2013, 08:23:55 AM
We're these CKD kits like the South African ones??


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Title: Re: Re: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on June 25, 2013, 10:34:24 AM
We're these CKD kits like the South African ones??


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I think so but with local version of twin cam and possibly other content sourced in Spain I don't know much about them I have a Spanish seat magazine about it but as I don't speak Spanish I don't know what info it gives plus a brochure for the hpe (never seen the coupe brochure) I did read somewhere that they built berlinas as well but haven't found any evidence for it


Title: Re: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on June 25, 2013, 10:35:38 AM
I think there are some owners of seat built ones on the Facebook group


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on June 26, 2013, 11:12:22 AM
We have a friend coming to visit us in 2 weeks who is fluent in Spanish...,


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Title: Re: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on June 26, 2013, 11:42:17 AM
I'll try to copy it for you


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on June 27, 2013, 08:07:40 AM
bit rough and ready but I think you can read it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hzhtxrvsqi15sut/beta%20spain.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hzhtxrvsqi15sut/beta%20spain.zip) 


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on July 10, 2013, 01:51:49 PM
So, our spanish speaking friend (Anna) has read through the docs provided by Alan.

The story is that the Spanish SEAT built Betas were not CKD (Completely Knocked Down) kits similar to those sold to SA.  These cars were assembled/built at the newly expanded SEAT plant using the same components that were used by Lancia Italy, so chassis/body sections were welded together just like the plant in Italy, SEAT were not supplied pre-assembled shells to simply attach parts to. It was treated like a satellite Lancia plant.  There were technical experts from Lancia at the inception of the upgrade to the SEAT plant to assist with the modernisation and these Lancia technical experts stayed throughout the entire SEAT Beta production run, so they didn't just go back to Italy once SEAT were up and running!

A new production line technique was also intruduced for the first time where there where "Islands on the line", this is where a small team were specialised in specific tasks and took full responsibility for thier "Island". So loom installations, engine fitting, brakes, suspension, exhaust system, lighting, trim and interior all had small teams solely responsible for that task, this improved build quality to match the high standards set by Lancia.

Lancia took some of the SEAT built cars and ran numerous comparison tests with Lancia produced cars and the results were "extremely favourable" and Lancia Italy were said to be very pleased.

My thanks to our friend Anna - who is not a car buff in the slightest !

 


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: peteracs on July 10, 2013, 02:29:35 PM
Hi Matt

Two questions come to mind.

1) Did the cars get sold in Spain only?

2) Is the model plate different to the normal one?

Anyone have any ideas, purely academic interest, but I am sure others would like to know.

Peter


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on July 10, 2013, 05:45:50 PM
unlikely to be sold outside Spain because they used the Seat 1919cc engine, I guess this was a route around Spanish import regulations and duty and also gave Seat a more up market model to sell?


Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: MattNoVAT on July 10, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
I've never seen one and I'm not aware of any Spanish members on here with one.


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Title: Re: Manual Rack Steering Damper
Post by: rossocorsa on July 10, 2013, 10:17:07 PM
I think there are some owners on the Facebook groups, when I have time I will check, I know there is at least one person I've come cross with a Seat built car. I do have a brochure on the hpe and i will try to post some pages from it when time permits (and I'm not being too lazy)

Alan


Title: Re: Seat Spain built Betas
Post by: rossocorsa on July 11, 2013, 11:14:02 PM
I have some photos from a member on the lancia beta group on Facebook


(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/12/7u3ypuby.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/12/abuquge2.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/12/u8yparu9.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/12/te4ebahy.jpg)

Many thanks to Michel Sanchez Nasarre

I presume that the prefix GH is HPE and GC is coupe?

Only obvious visual difference in engine seems to be that the cam covers appear to be plain. From the brochure I have I think these cars came with air con as standard but seem otherwise identical to Italian built cars