Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Transmission => Topic started by: bunga_bunga on June 08, 2012, 03:16:23 AM



Title: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: bunga_bunga on June 08, 2012, 03:16:23 AM
I have been reading some historical posts on Limited Slip Differentials for the Lancia Beta. It seems that some time back (2004'ish) there was some investigation into what might work, but no conclusions. I am particularly interested in knowing what the options are today. Has anyone found any parts that are interchangeable into the Beta unit?


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: WestonE on June 08, 2012, 06:05:25 PM
Bunga Bunga

A nice picture of the VX outer gearset. I have a Gripper LSD installed in my VX Gearbox which was part of a 7 unit batch ordered by members of the Montecarlo Consortium. It was too harsh on the road in my Montecarlo but will be just the ticket with the Volumetrico FI Beta Spyder I am slowly putting together.

Eric


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: bunga_bunga on June 09, 2012, 12:27:02 AM
Eric,

Thanks for the note on the Gripper and kudos to you for recognising the VX gearset. I have been in contact with the people at Gripper but unfortunately they either want a full "custom build" price or a group buy. Do you know of anyone that had one made for the Monte that may want to part with it? Do we have any other options outside Gripper and Colotti?

PS: I am on the hunt for a Volumetrico to replace my reconditioned Volumex! :)


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: Badnews on June 09, 2012, 01:38:47 PM
Try this guy (Bara), he does everything to do with gearboxes, diffs and gearsets.... would be my first point of call!  Worth a try ;)  He's very well known in the cosworth scene for creating uprated gearsets and diffs at very reasonable price and excellent customer service!

Bara Motorsport Ltd
Buntsford Hill Business Park, Buntsford Park Rd, Bromsgrove, Worcestershire B60 3DX
Tel: 01527 880011


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: bunga_bunga on June 13, 2012, 02:55:23 AM
Thank you for the tip "Badnews". I was more thinking of off the shelf solutions. It appears that they do not really exist outside of Gripper and Colotti. I would go with Gripper but they want a volume purchase :( Colotti is a no-no as it is not suitable for a road car..


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: Badnews on June 13, 2012, 09:35:13 AM
I'd still ring bara, he should be able to advise on anything diff related and everytime I've contacted him I've been impressed with his knowledge.
Personally I'd be looking for an atb type diff for a road car, or pretty much any fwd car tbh.

Good luck with your search, if you don't turn up a suitable solution please let me know, I am local to bara and I have a spare box for a mock up. Seems a common area that's lacking options for the beta.

Cheers
Dan


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: rachaeljf on June 14, 2012, 12:36:29 AM
Given the similarity between Alfa V6 gearboxes and the venerable Beta gearbox, maybe the Alfa Q2 Torsen LSD will fit. Certainly the diff covers are interchangeable, suggesting the diffs are too.


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: Grundo on June 14, 2012, 02:57:02 AM
I have a colotti duo-block LSD in my VX. I don't agree it isn't suitable for the road as you can tune it by changing the number of springs in the diff. You can also get a coppia frenata type which is suitable for the road.

It is expensive though at EUR 2,500.


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: WestonE on June 14, 2012, 02:57:05 PM
I know David Beale modified a Quaiffe LSD to fit a Monte, but I have no idea which one or how it was done. I also looked at the Fiat Coupe Viscous Diff along the way, but they cannot be serviced and in long term use go "Open" as the fluid fails.

Eric

Gripper LSD were about 750 from memory.   


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: bunga_bunga on June 19, 2012, 04:49:23 AM
Good to see this thread has come to life. I should have qualified my response by saying that I read the Colotti does not have any facility for the speedometer which makes it less suitable for the road.

The Alfa option and the Quaife adaptations sound very interesting. I guess the big issue we have is that there is very little in terms of the specifics. I really need to know exactly what models and the modifications required. I also considered the viscous coupling, but heard that it required reasonably substantial fabrication and it is also a hard part to find in the first place.

It would be great for the record if David Beale (please PM me with Davids email address if available) or someone with specific experience in Alfa adaptations could chime in and offer more detail on the matter?


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: Grundo on June 20, 2012, 02:51:17 AM
In terms of 'relative engineering', an LSD designed for the car and which is a direct replacement for the original equipment (the colotti) is a much better bet than a one off that needs mods.

The speedo problem was sorted by putting in an electronic speedo with a sensor on the driveshaft flange. That is quite easy to do compared to machining and modifying driveshafts etc which from memory when I looked at you had to do with the LSD for an Alfa. I remember a conversation I had with someone when I was looking who had done the alfa quaife LSD and rather than have male shafts coming from the LSD they are female and so would need to fabricate new drive shafts. This person had welded a beta driveshaft onto an alfa one which to me didn't sound like a great long term plan.

My personal thought is work out which battle you want to fight, the speedo drive is an easy one to win.


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: bunga_bunga on June 20, 2012, 12:24:55 PM
Thanks Grundo for the thoughts. I think you said it well in that you have to pick your battles. My machinist was just today telling me "this is not an easy build". I think he was a little baffled as to why I am building Beta. As far as the LSD, is a Montecarlo diff a direct replacement for the Beta? I can get hold of a Gripper for a Montecarlo. If this is a direct replacement into the Beta Coupe then I may well have a solution.

PS: Out of interest what does a Colotti set one back these days? My VX powered Coupe is a road car and I am not 100% sure if the Gripper is appropriate for this application. I am expecting to push 200hp.


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: Zagato on June 20, 2012, 09:22:41 PM
I got a quote recently from Colotti
Hope you are sitting down ...
2,600 Euro plus carriage

I asked for discount and
... we may be able to find you 50 or 100 Euro discount!


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: Grundo on June 20, 2012, 09:42:17 PM
The LSD in my car I was lucky enough to find new but never installed from a guy in America. One of the most fortuitous finds I've ever had! It cost me USD1,400 from that chap (I had to organise a family holiday to Disneyland to pick it up). In order to find out what things cost I made contact with Colotti and they gave be a quote for one for EUR2,500. Paolo Colotti  was also incredibly helpful and gave me the settings I needed to setup the diff for the right slip.

It is a lot of money but in hindsight one of the good things about my set-up is I don't have to worry about it or tweak it. It is quite a lot of piece of mind when you have that much power going through it.

And keep going on the Beta. If it was easy then everyone would do it!


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: rachaeljf on June 20, 2012, 11:22:00 PM
I would seriously consider the Alfa Q2 LSD. Read this thread. The Beta uses the same family of gearboxes as the Alfas being discussed...

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/153764-fitting-alfa-romeo-q2-differential.html (http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/153764-fitting-alfa-romeo-q2-differential.html)


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: bunga_bunga on June 21, 2012, 12:54:59 PM
Thanks for the notes on the Colotti. At 2500 Euros it is out of my price range. I am looking at a Gripper, but really need to know if the Montecarlo/Scorpion LSD is a direct fit for a Beta Coupe?

I will also do a bit more investigating on the Alfa side.


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: WestonE on June 21, 2012, 02:30:03 PM
I have my Gripper diff built onto a VX Gearset in Beta Casings ready to go into my somewhat modified Beta Spyder so yes the Gripper will fit.

Eric


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: archigraphe on November 05, 2012, 01:41:49 PM
For those who always find this LSD

http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/371953589.htm?ca=17_s (http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/371953589.htm?ca=17_s)



Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: archigraphe on January 28, 2013, 05:42:48 PM
Need your advice...

http://fr.kapaza.be/region-bruxelloise/differentiel-glissement-limite-70108817.htm (http://fr.kapaza.be/region-bruxelloise/differentiel-glissement-limite-70108817.htm)



Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: WestonE on January 30, 2013, 07:17:55 PM
I do not know this LSD solution and it looks like an unusual approach making me wonder how strong it is in use. I think you should ask on Guy Croft's website if anyone has tried this.

Eric


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: archigraphe on January 31, 2013, 02:14:45 PM
This is a light LSD for vehicule with power less than 200 bhp.

The extra torque on the blocked wheel is 3mkg, as write to me the distributor.

I'm going to test this solution , in may certainly, on the new gearbox I would install on the Lancia .

I'write you comment on this installation and driveability.



Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: 75coupe on March 13, 2013, 12:05:55 PM
hi does this diff have cones in it?

I have just had a similar setup made but it uses the springs to preload cones as per Borg Warner type LSD's. Under high input torque the cones try to push against their seats in the casing, effectively trying to lock the output shafts of the diff. Under low input torque the side gears reduce the amount of side thrust on these cones, so they can slip and act like more like an open diff.

here are some pics:


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: 75coupe on March 13, 2013, 12:12:14 PM
More pics  ;)


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: archigraphe on April 08, 2013, 09:10:17 AM
to 75coupe, Have you test this solution on your car?

On the net, I read this solution may damage seriously the gearbox, because of "inhabituel" usage of the  gearing and an accelerated wear of the teeth.





Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: 75coupe on April 10, 2013, 05:30:34 AM
Hi I have not tested this yet, but the person who did it successfully ran this setup in a highly modified Fiat X1/9 Prototipo replica running a Beta 2 litre engine and gearbox.

I will update once I have tested it.


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: 75coupe on November 23, 2013, 09:20:15 PM
Dear All

I have now tested the diff on the road and it works very well. It has eliminated virtually all inside wheel spin when pulling out of tight corners - I can now use full throttle in 1st gear out of a junction, whereas before it would just turn the inside tyre into smoke.

As for how long it will last is anyone's guess, but as with al mods you had to expect greater wear & tear!

Will update once tested on the track....


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: archigraphe on January 27, 2014, 03:56:00 PM
Ok do you think this solution may be useful in rally ?

I think Yes.... but if the gearbox break It will hurt....

Have you test it on track ?


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: 75coupe on January 29, 2014, 11:39:41 AM
Hi Archie,

I will be testing the diff again soon with new Guy Croft 190BHP engine, so will let you know. I have a hillclimb to do end of February, so will update then.

Regards ian


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: archigraphe on April 22, 2014, 04:56:40 PM
Is there new about this solution?


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: 75coupe on April 29, 2014, 07:02:37 AM
Sorry Archigraphe only just installed my GC engine, will be testing on the track at the end of May, remind me after this if I have not responded, been too busy renovating the house!


Title: Re: LSD for Beta coupe
Post by: HF Stinger on November 17, 2016, 09:03:47 AM
This subject has been in the forefront of my mind again and I found this thread.

Is there enough testing to give us a longterm type update?