Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Engine => Topic started by: Gerhard on December 22, 2011, 06:45:25 PM



Title: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on December 22, 2011, 06:45:25 PM
Hello All,

I am back with a new problem. My son was driving the Beta, and this is his words: "The car was running fine, when all of a sudden it just lost power. I then tried to start it again, although the starter is turning over normally, it did not start."

We had the car towed to a friends house nearby, and one, with some mechanical experience, made the observation that the cam-belt (?) under the yellow cover to the driver's side of the car is not turning.

I know this is not a heck of a lot of information, but please I will appreciate some inputs.

This just as I though we have sorted all the problems out!!

Gerhard.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: MattNoVAT on December 22, 2011, 08:07:42 PM
So things to check are:

1. Is the cam belt actually present?

2. Is the belt loose or damaged?

If the two cam pulleys remain stationary it sounds like the belt could have snapped.

Depending on when it snapped it could have damaged valves. Ideally you would need to take the head off to check properly. 

Sorry to be bearer of bad news but if the cams are not turning then its definitely serious :-(


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on December 23, 2011, 03:50:29 AM
Thanks Matt,

As always quick to respond. I am just so despondent now with this little car. It is costing my son a arm and a leg and he just spent R1, 200.00 on getting the water problem out.

I would not be able to answer your questions as the car is not at my place, but when I had a look last night, seems as if the belt is there, it is just not turning. And I didn't what to turn the engine over unnecessary.

What I have suggested to my son is that he gets the mechanic out to first have a look, hope of all hopes, he will say that it is just something small that can be fix for R10.00. (Yeah I know I am being stupid here)

I am hoping that the valves were not damage, as he said that the car just lost power, but did not mentioned any other "bad" noises. I presume here that dying/damaging valves will make a "bad" noise.

Thanks again for the input.

Gerahrd.



 


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on January 10, 2012, 06:23:12 AM
Hi All,

Update on the cam belt. It did snapped, apparently due to the tensioner seizing up(?)

Any way, new cam belt on, new tensioner on, start car, no compression in 3 of the 4 cylinders.

Bent/Damaged valves!!!!!

There goes my son's R10 budget!



Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Hawk on January 10, 2012, 09:03:13 AM
Sorry to hear that


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on January 11, 2012, 08:05:24 AM
Thanks Hawk

Went down to the garage yesterday to look at the damage. Bent/damage all the exhaust valves and one inlet valve. Noticed also that the water pipes needs replacing, so will be replacing them with stainless steel ones. Also all the rubber pipes and the fuel lines. (In for a penny, in for a pound, I guess)

Interesting observation, although there are no indication that the engine was using abnormally oil, (no frequent topping up) by the look of the pistons it is using oil. 

I have attached some photo's.

Also one to show how they tried to fix the water bottle. Still don't know if that solution will work, as the car was not driven that much since the fix. Anyway, got Matt to source me a replacement bottle in the UK. Awaiting the bidding process now.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on February 03, 2012, 11:53:40 AM
Update on the work.

We have received the new/old expansion tank from the UK that Matt sourced for us. Got the new s/s pipes for the water works and the head was done with new valves etc. Just waiting now for the shims and then the whole lot will be put together again. Hopefully by mid next week. Attached some photos and also of the offending belt.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: MattNoVAT on February 03, 2012, 12:00:19 PM
Looking good Gerhard, It will not be long now before the car is back on the road.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on February 03, 2012, 12:05:30 PM
I don't know who is more excited to drive it again, me or my son. Presume there will be a coin flipping involved when we get to pick it up.

Thanks again for the trust and the effort.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on March 20, 2012, 02:23:17 PM
Whoop, Whoop!!

Christiaan went to pick up his Lancia today. About all in the engine was eventually either replaced, cleaned or removed, inspected and installed again.

New speedo cable, new water pipes, both steel and rubber, new fuel pipes, new valves, and, and, and. O and not forgetting the new(old) expansion tank Matt got for him.

Have not seen or driven it yet, but according to him, "It drives like a Swiss watch"

When I spoke to him over the phone just now, he just finish hugging it and was in the process of washing it

Will have a look at it tomorrow. (We have a public holiday here in SA tomorrow, heh, heh, heh, nothing beat a mid week paid break)

Gerhard.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Hawk on March 20, 2012, 02:29:23 PM
Happy days - pleased to hear it has all worked out


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on March 20, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
I did not asked for the invoice yet. Presume that will awaits me when I get home.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: MattNoVAT on March 20, 2012, 02:44:05 PM
Glad that everything is back to normal.  Hope the bill isn't too much.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on March 22, 2012, 06:49:20 AM
Drove the Lancia yesterday afternoon, engine sounds fine, however if the car is in neutral (auto gearbox) the revs will "hunt". Going up to +-1500, then drop back to +-500 and then shoot up to 1500 again. If you leave it in D, the revs will be normal??

Inputs please.

G


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Thotos on March 23, 2012, 03:18:29 PM
There's a valve that's actuated when the auto box is in gear and the brake pedal is depressed (i.e. stationary) which controls the idling speed. While in Neutral or Park this valve should be closed. I suspect your problem is related to this valve somehow; check electrical connections and pipes. But first I would check and adjust the idling mixture with the car in Neutral or Park.   


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on March 27, 2012, 11:30:18 AM
Thanks, for the input. I will discuss so with the mechanic.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on April 19, 2012, 07:14:43 AM
Eventually got the invoices for the work done on Christiaan's car.  :o


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: MattNoVAT on April 19, 2012, 08:00:05 AM
Is that a total of 20k Rand?  (1600)

Will Christiaan be buying his Dad a beer or two?  ;D


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on April 19, 2012, 08:30:44 AM
Don't give me a heart attack now, it is R15, 526.48 (or in the Queen's finest 1, 237 pounds)

We already had the beers (in fact a couple more than 1 or 2) over a braai the other Saturday after the rugby match.

But the young man is now, like Portugal, officially ruined on the financial front!

Will be paying the money back to us over 50 years I suspect.

The car must still go back for them to sort the idle out.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on May 14, 2012, 11:34:06 AM
Well the bad news is that the cam-belt snapped again. So the car is back with the mechanic. And this time he will pay for whatever needs to be done to fix it. Dammit, dammit, dammit.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: MattNoVAT on May 14, 2012, 12:11:37 PM
Wow - that is bad luck Gerhard.  Did they use an old stock cam belt? 

I always buy new ones rather than use one thats a few years old but unused.

Hope they get it fixed soon.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on May 14, 2012, 12:30:20 PM
Brand spanking new. I saw the belt with my own eye's. If it was not for that, there would have been one neutered mechanic walking in Durban this morning.

Holding thumbs that no other major damaged was done. 


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on May 14, 2012, 12:38:29 PM
Hi Matt,

I just read your reply again. Sorry did not realized what you meant. I am now not so sure about the age of the belt. But be that as it may, I am still holding the garage responsible for it. Which I presume they will pass on to the belt supplier.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: MattNoVAT on May 14, 2012, 12:44:35 PM
Quite right that the Garage should be responsible for footing the bill and sorting out with the belt supplier.

It's a shame that you now have to be without a car..... well your son has to be without a car.   :(


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on May 14, 2012, 12:48:06 PM
You 100% correct. I am without a car again, seeing that the young man must attend classes. But then I get to drive the wife car's.........  ;D


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Hawk on May 14, 2012, 12:54:24 PM
That's unbelievably bad luck - hope the garage comes good and picks up the bill


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on May 14, 2012, 01:35:30 PM
They will, they have no choice.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: HFStuart on May 14, 2012, 04:33:02 PM
That's unbelievably bad luck - hope the garage comes good and picks up the bill

So unbelievable that I don't think luck has anything to do with it!

It must have been a fault with the belt or with the installation. I hope it was the belt.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Thotos on May 14, 2012, 05:40:27 PM
It must have been a fault with the belt or with the installation. I hope it was the belt.

When it happened to me on a different car (Maserati Biturbo) it was a fault with the lubrication feed causing one of the camshafts to seize. I doubt this is the case with the Lancia Twin Cam but it's worth checking to make sure there are no mechanical faults that caused the belt to fail (seized or jammed camshaft, seized or jammed distributor/fuel pump drive or shaft, seized tensioner bearing etc.) I'm sure there must be another reason why the belt has failed so quickly; it can't just be a faulty belt if it was new.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: thecolonel on May 14, 2012, 06:01:56 PM
Could easily be just a failed belt, we had the
odd new one fail on vauxhalls, just claimed
under a parts warranty and vauxhall paid the
bill.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: droptop on May 16, 2012, 01:43:19 PM
Just read this post and I'm sorry to hear how much trouble you had.
It's part of the "joys" of ownership I suppose.
It does lead to a question though. Where can I get those steel water pipes?
Mine are holding together thanks to a MIG welder and Holts Rust Remedy and I'm terrified they'll let go some day.
I don't mind replacing parts and actually take pleasure in the knowledge I have improved the car, but I really hate having to be towed home for some failure I knowingly neglected to prevent.
Any information on replacement pipes would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and good luck with the car in the future.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on May 17, 2012, 10:33:50 AM
First, thank you all for the kind words and support it is highly appreciated.

Update: The jury is still out on what caused the belt to fail.

Droptop, I noted that you are based in Ireland, so unfortunately it will be of no help to give you the South African contact's detail. Regarding the pipes, the originals was due for replacement, and it was recommended that it is replaced with stainless steel one's. Little bit more expensive, and I am sure they will now last until the car is rusted (yes I know) away, but worth the money spend. As we could not find OEM's the old pipes were used as a template and with great care and lots of measurements, new one's were created. Must say it took them 2 times to get the correct angles, etc. O yes the other problem that was picked up, do not even think to try a thin walled pipe. It just crack when ever it was bend. That all said, if you are prepared to carry the cost of getting it to you and are happy with the manufacturing costs, which if I remember correctly was R1, 400.00 (including all the fuel pipes), I will by all means get them done here for you.



Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: droptop on May 18, 2012, 06:37:43 AM
Appreciate the information.
I was considering getting them made up here, but I thought maybe you had a source of after-market ones.
They're still cheaper than having the engine overheat!
I thought the seized tensioner was the cause of the belt failure on your engine?


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on May 18, 2012, 06:49:10 AM
No problem, one thing that I should mention, even with bending it to the old pipes measurements and shape, putting it on the engine, some small bending still had to be done. And it was here that the pipes would crack, as they did not have the right equipment at the garage for this finale shaping.

Yes, in absolute agreement with you, way cheaper than a seized engine.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on June 27, 2012, 04:33:27 PM
Update, Christiaan and i went to pick the Lancia up this afternoon, again the culprit was the cam belt, factory failure, hope that all will be going well for the young man from here forwards.

Again, all the valves etc. were stuffed when the cam belt went, but this time, we (read I) did not had to pay. Haven't driven it yet as I had to shoot back to the office for a meeting.

O well, here's hoping that all will be well.


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Gerhard on July 03, 2012, 12:28:05 PM
Alas not to be.

Terrible pinging in the engine, back to the garage. Heavens know when we can pick it up again.

I am getting to the point now, were just out of stubbornness, I will continue with the car until all is sorted.

My wife only shake her head, and mumble something to the effect of stupid idiot, money waster etc........

How do you explain to her that it is a Lancia and more so a Beta Coupe................


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: droptop on July 03, 2012, 03:53:15 PM
Bouquet of flowers?
Show her this site?
Carry on and ignore her?
Show her this site?
At least the car understands!!!


Title: Re: Suddenly no power
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on July 04, 2012, 07:25:01 AM
Almost certainly not timed up properly after. Ew belt etc. ?