Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Suspension => Topic started by: WestonE on November 20, 2011, 08:58:58 AM



Title: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on November 20, 2011, 08:58:58 AM
Guys

As some of you know I am building a slightly unusual Beta Spyder/Spider with more than standard power levels (280 bhp 260 ft lbs). This means I have to sort out the weaker areas in the original design so i can enjoy the car and stay alive! So after looking at various options I am going to have new front wishbones made that link to the existing lower swivels and front roll bar. However they will have 2 degrees of negative camber built in and have far stronger bettter supported inner bushes (made arround a Polybush part). They will be made in tubular steel before being plated and poweder coated.

So is anyone else interested? I do not know the price yet but it will be cheaper if more are made and there will be a pattern for the future.

NB negative camber to reduce understeer and give sharper turn in, Better bushes and location to remove torque steer and mid corner geometry changes.

Eric   


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: rachaeljf on November 20, 2011, 02:30:42 PM
I'll have some of that!

Cheers R


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: rossocorsa on November 20, 2011, 05:51:07 PM
very interesting idea but I'm afraid probably outside of my budget


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: HFStuart on November 20, 2011, 06:57:17 PM
Eric,

I could be interested in these. What are you planning to do for the A/R bar mount? I've wondered before whether it would be worth modifying it to use a short drop link with a fixed mount on the subframe.

Stuart


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on November 21, 2011, 09:12:19 AM
Stuart

I was not intending to change the front roll bar assembly as my experience with lowering and uprating springs and dampers has seen decent results on roll with all bushes in good condition. Also I do not want to stiffen the front roll bar as this would add understeer. If anything I would want to adjust the rear but this has risks like snap oversteer so I am leaving it alone until I can drive the combined modifications with different spring/damper rates.

What is it you want to change about the front roll bar assembly and why?

Eric
PS do you have designs or components


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: HFStuart on November 21, 2011, 09:53:03 PM
I've always thought there was too much compliance in the A/R bar mounting both on the subframe and on the wishbones.

What I'd envisaged was a short drop link (like used on most modern cars) attached to slide over clamp on the bar and a chassis bracket on the wishbone. To get the requived amount of anticulation without big angle changes in the drop link I'd probably have it pass down through the wishbone and attach to a bracket underneath or have it go up and attach direct to a bracket on the shock body. The bar could then be attached to the subframe by a single saddle clamp either side rather than the double one.

Slide clamp - http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p780/ROLL-BAR-SLIDE-CLAMP-3/4/product_info.html?osCsid=86a7a5fcab227d44029e5edc7128b58b (http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p780/ROLL-BAR-SLIDE-CLAMP-3/4/product_info.html?osCsid=86a7a5fcab227d44029e5edc7128b58b)


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: 75coupe on December 22, 2011, 08:55:22 PM
Hi Eric

Only just picked up on this thread but would be interested in the wishbones depending on cost .

I agree with your comments on anti roll bars.

Best wishes for Christmas

Ian


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: rachaeljf on April 13, 2012, 08:49:45 PM
Hi Eric,

Did you get any further with these wishbones?

Cheers R


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on April 14, 2012, 08:57:56 AM
Rachel

I have the bushes identified and a set purchased but have not yet been to GB sportscars to commission these.

Eric


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: archigraphe on November 10, 2012, 03:21:32 PM
Hi Eric,

I'm looking renforcing my whishbone, but with welding some piece of steel to them.

Like I show on this site :

http://www.betagr4motorsport.fr/#/pieces-auto-page-0/3785726 (http://www.betagr4motorsport.fr/#/pieces-auto-page-0/3785726)

What do you think is the more effective for our cars?



Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on November 11, 2012, 10:15:40 AM
Archiegraphe a very interesting site and a way to solve the weak front wishbones available now. My solution will be better but it is not available or yet being built so yes buy this kit it makes sense but does nothing about providing negative camber and it adding weight to a weak design. The 20 degree wedge adaptors to make Fiat manifolds fit Betas and Montecarlos are interesting and the strut braces a great idea. But why are they selling drive shaft spacers? I would love to know the problem this is meant to solve? 

Eric


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: HFStuart on November 11, 2012, 11:17:30 AM
I noticed those too.


The site is called BetaGr4 - did they run a wider track?



Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: archigraphe on November 11, 2012, 06:10:48 PM
Hi,

On the betagr4motorsport there is many information, you can download the Fia 3064 list, and show us the specs from the Beta  Gr3 and Gr4 , and the extension homologation.

For the whishbone, as you can see, M. Bonelli work on the camber by deport of the lower front ball. The piece of steel complet the strenghtened kit.
Doing this, he need the extension of the driveshaft. Without, the driveshaft is too short.

The increase of the negative camber can be obtain by an "ovalization" of the upper hole for the hub fixation, as we can saw on the VW Golf 1.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Camber-kit-Beetle-Cabrio-Golf-Jetta-Passat-/260751911547 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Camber-kit-Beetle-Cabrio-Golf-Jetta-Passat-/260751911547)

But the result is limited at best 1.5 °.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on November 22, 2012, 08:34:19 AM
Archiegraph

The Golf kit would be un-safe on a beta with such weak bolts better to use the original large and strong bolts and slot the upper holes before using hi grip lock washers or welded washers (I have done this in the past successfully). A very interesting point on needing longer drive shafts/ spacers I need to consider this.

Eric 


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on October 29, 2018, 10:31:23 PM
Hi Eric,

I'm looking renforcing my whishbone, but with welding some piece of steel to them.

Like I show on this site :

http://www.betagr4motorsport.fr/#/pieces-auto-page-0/3785726 (http://www.betagr4motorsport.fr/#/pieces-auto-page-0/3785726)

What do you think is the more effective for our cars?


Archie, did you ever get round to doing this? I'm thinking of doing the same, but am unsure of how much (or how little) metal to add in for the best balance between stiffness and weight.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on October 30, 2018, 09:00:57 AM
Hi Graham

I have the new front wishbones for my car but they are untested and not yet fitted to the subframe which is being re-enforced first. They are large gauge tubular steel with Nissan Patrol Poly bushes and custom centres. They will not be bending at the first pot hole or pulling backwards under power for exciting torque steer.

I will get some photos sorted out at the weekend, but before you get excited this is an expensive option for Beta owners.

Cheers

Eric


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on October 30, 2018, 10:18:18 PM
Yes, I appreciate that Eric. But then your requirements are several orders of magnitude more severe than mine...  :)  I'm just interested in beefing stuff up where I can at reasonable cost. At some point I'm also intending to drop the subframe on my Spider, get it blasted and have some reinforcement welded in, then galvanise and paint it. Will be very interested to see what you do with your subframe as I may be able to copy that.

Would you say that welding in triangular reinforcing plates to the wishbone would improve matters or are there more serious issues to address? Triangulation and/or gussetting is the best way I know of beefing up weak right angle profiles.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on October 31, 2018, 08:58:43 AM
Hi Graham

If you can get rectangular box section steel across between to 2 sides it should help with twisting. In general create triangle or box sections to add strength. Just be careful not to make anything that will foul through the full movement of the wishbone.

Eric   


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on October 31, 2018, 11:52:11 AM
Some Photos
(http://)
(http://)


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 01, 2018, 12:22:42 AM
Hi Eric,
I’m a bit late to this thread but maybe my playtime will be of use to someone.
I had similar issues with wishbone flex many moons ago running a slick shod Beta coupe in the Italian Intermarque challenge.
Here are a few things I used to use and have now found their way onto my road going VX.

Cross braced standard wishbones with particular strengthening along the sides either side of the lower ball joint mounting holes (circled) as I found this the main area of flex. Obvious I guess as it’s the ‘single’ most loaded area of the wishbone trying to transfer torque to the two bushes.
I also used solid nylon anti-roll bar mounts on both wishbone and subframe.



Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 01, 2018, 12:34:24 AM
I also made the alloy pedestal spacers to sit under the lower ball joints.
My reasoning for these was to bring the wishbones back down to their correct operational arc. Obviously, when you keep lowering the car from its original high rise factory suspension design, the wishbones no longer ‘bump’ into negative camber when cornering hard (instead they introduce positive camber) and conversely they also introduce unwanted camber changes when accelerating hard.
I find these pedestals improve all areas of grip from cornering, traction and braking to stability over surface changes and less torque steer. Cheap and easy to make. 


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 01, 2018, 12:41:40 AM
Strengthing wise for the front end, I opted to make a pair of braces that link from the area at the bottom of the suspension turrets (where the chassis rail runs horizontally) to the subframe. Thereby closing the flexing gape between the weight of the power train sitting on the subframe and the car being lifted at the top of the turrets. There is also a diagonal welded from the chassis rail next to the turret top, extending down to the lower door hinge area.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 01, 2018, 01:09:26 AM
Strengthening work


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on November 01, 2018, 08:51:19 PM
Wow - two for the price of one...! Those custom wishbones look fantastic, Eric. Did GB Engineering fabricate those for you? I suspect the price is too rich for my blood, but that should completely cure any flex in that area.

I very much like your bracing mods to the standard wishbones, SZ. I think I'm definitely going to copy that. I can see you ride bikes as well (another Aprilia owner here), and that mod reminds me somewhat of bracing work that Tony Foale did for Tony Middlehurst (Superbike magazine Editor in the 80s) to a (pre-ZXR) Kawasaki 750 that was suffering bendy frame syndrome. Did you use standard mild steel tube or something more exotic?

The ball joint risers intrigue me as well. I've got a pair of lowering (shorter) springs for the front of the car that will go on eventually. But would that mod work equally well on a standard ride height Beta? What thickness of aliuminium plate did you use for them, and did you make them yourself or get them fabbed up?

I like the other strengthening mods as well, but I'm not sure about welding bits into the bodywork. Perhaps once all the other stuff is done.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 04, 2018, 09:48:08 AM
The wishbone strengthening is light guage steel tubing as its only additional stiffness rather than complete load bearing.
The alloy pedestal risers are 20mm and hand made.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on November 04, 2018, 03:10:41 PM
Really Interesting input and clever work. I need to think about the additional subframe to body bracing fairly rapidly to have mounts built onto the shell and subframe. The ball joint spacers are an interesting idea and one I have never tried. I think I will try a back to back comparison when the car is running as I have Gasmatic Gold Coil overs all round.

I notice the change of front calliper to what looks like a Ford item?

I have 6 Piston Callipers built up for Integrale 284 front discs and will be finding out if my design works in due course.

The Wishbones were made by Amtech Fabrications in Wooburn Green, but I have the build jig as part of the development cost. Amtech designed and make the chassis for Stratos Replicas sold by one of the big kit car names and definitely bring some suspension design skill to the game.

Eric       


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 04, 2018, 03:56:29 PM
Hi Eric,
I take no credit for the chassis strengthening idea to strap the subframe to the chassis rail above. It had bugged me for years as to how much flex there must be in this area, but the push to do something about it came when I realised several more modern cars had already done just that.
The alloy pedestal spacers under the lower ball joint was an idea I came up with when running a race car about as low as it could go. Have a try and see what you think. Its a simple mod to put in place using different thickness pedestals and equally simple to remove if you prefer the feel without.
The brakes are Fiat Croma turbo/early Thema turbo (14 inch wheel models). From memory they are only 257mm, so they will not match the power of your 6 pot setup on 'grale discs. I opted to go the early Croma/Thema route as they fit inside the original 14 inch beta alloys if required.
As I'm sure you know, when you go away from the beta front discs, you loose the wheel central locating hub. I overcame this by simply fitting Thema hub flanges into the original beta hub carriers and wheel bearings. All interchangeable. Just an adapter bracket to mount the brake caliper carrier was all that was needed to complete the install.

I look forward to seeing your next monster Beta project, do you have a timeframe for road testing?


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on November 05, 2018, 03:16:07 PM
As I'm sure you know, when you go away from the beta front discs, you loose the wheel central locating hub. I overcame this by simply fitting Thema hub flanges into the original beta hub carriers and wheel bearings. All interchangeable. Just an adapter bracket to mount the brake caliper carrier was all that was needed to complete the install.
Yes, I laboriously figured that out, as I'm in the process of upgrading the brakes on my spider to 4 pot calipers (originally owned by Eric before he went to 6-pot calipers) using the readily available 284mm ventilated discs. This means I have to go to 15 inch wheels for internal clearance and, as you say, compensate for the loss of the Beta locating hub. I'm using a Thema 16v i.e. hub (early version). The later versions have a larger diameter spline and aren't interchangeable with Beta hardware. I only found this out by ordering the wrong part initially...


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on November 05, 2018, 06:36:55 PM
Cross braced standard wishbones with particular strengthening along the sides either side of the lower ball joint mounting holes (circled) as I found this the main area of flex. Obvious I guess as it’s the ‘single’ most loaded area of the wishbone trying to transfer torque to the two bushes.
Hi Ian,

Could you expand further on how you beefed up the area of the wishbone closest to the ball joint mounting holes? I can't really make out the detail of your modifications in the photo. What metal did you add and where?

Cheers, Graham


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 06, 2018, 07:40:55 AM
Hi Graham,
I'll get down to my Dads this week (where I keep the car) and take a picture for posting.

All the best,
Ian


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on November 06, 2018, 11:12:24 AM
Excellent! Many thanks, Graham


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on November 18, 2018, 03:35:17 PM
I'm gradually working my way through the steps needed to upgrade the brakes on the Spider, and one of the ever-expanding knock on effects is that new hubs will be required. As I really don't want to be faffing about in France with minimal access to special tools and specialist services, I'm intending to take a whole bunch of stuff down with me and just swap it out. As a result, I acquired a pair of front uprights (and fortuitously) a pair of front wishbones from Peter (peteracs of this parish) to prepare for the task, rather than doing battle with the ones currently fitted to the car.

Ian (squiglyzigly) has further made me realise that I need a set of braced front wishbones in my life (and on the car), and so Peter's donations are to be pressed into service for this. I didn't take any 'before' photos, but Peter will confirm that none of the items were exactly in pristine condition, particularly the wishbones. I'd eventually managed to remove the hubs, bearing retainers and bearings from the uprights (although not without a proper fight) and also remove a particularly stubborn ball joint from the wishbone. The last part  of the work was to remove the old rubber bushes. A Rothenberger Superfire 2 plumbing torch with a MAPP gas canister attached accomplished that in a particularly satisfying manner.

So the next step was to dump the rusty uprights and wishbones in the citric acid tank I have. This is a 15 gallon/68 litre plastic cold water tank and lid (very important), with an aquarium heater immersed in the solution to speed up the process. I left the parts stewing in the tank overnight in the shed, with the tank seated on 3 layers of polystyrene to reduce heat loss through the concrete floor. Here are the results:

(https://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSC_3271_zpsfy6psnow.jpg)

(https://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSC_3273_zpsbpd292fa.jpg)

(https://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSC_3275_zps8wrctpmk.jpg)

(https://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSC_3278_zpslqn5zprp.jpg)

As you can see, there are still some parts that will need blasting, mainly where old paint or underseal has adhered to the surface, but the results are way better than I had any hopes of achieving. The uprights in particular will only need a light blow over with the vapour blaster to make sure the threads are completely clear and they will be ready for phosphating. The wishbones will be media blasted and then braced in the way that Ian has demonstrated and finally zinc plated (I think). So all in all, a bit of a result.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: squiglyzigly on November 20, 2018, 02:25:36 PM
Hi Graham,
here's the area worth reinforcing hightlighted in red. Its worth welding a fillet on both forward and rear facing outer faces in this area to prevent and flex around the lower ball joint mounting. I usually use steel guage similar to the wishbone itself.

Hope this helps

Ian


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on November 20, 2018, 09:50:04 PM
Hi Ian, yes that makes sense. You're basically triangulating that area (front and back sides) to strengthen it, as far as I can see. Obviously it mustn't interfere with any suspension movement, but I imagine you can get a good increase in rigidity without adding too much metal.

Cheers!

Graham


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: rachaeljf on November 25, 2018, 02:15:26 AM
Eric, how much will two pairs of your wishbones cost?

Thanks Rachael


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: WestonE on November 27, 2018, 06:50:08 PM
Hi Rachel

At the moment I am not sure I need to ask the firm that made mine and price up the bushes.

I am also very busy with work so bear with me

Eric 


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: rachaeljf on November 27, 2018, 09:05:58 PM
No worries, many thanks.


Title: Re: New Front Wishbones
Post by: mangocrazy on December 13, 2018, 11:33:50 PM
The uprights and new Thema hubs went off to be phosphated a couple of weeks ago (after being vapour blasted) and when they came back were taken to a local engineering shop to have the (NOS) bearings pressed into the uprights and the hubs pressed into the bearing inners. Here's a couple of photos of how they look now:

(https://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSC_3282_zpszxduneif.jpg)


(https://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/godimbored69/DSC_3291_zpsgjkm9w5s.jpg)

I'm very pleased with the phosphate finish; it looks smart and should provide a good degree of corrosion resistance. Phosphating is a proper surface treatment, in that it alters the chemical structure of the surface layer of the steel but with only the tiniest amount of dimensional change (fractions of a micron) - important when bearing surfaces are involved. It's also an excellent base layer for subsequent powder coating, should you choose to do so.