Lancia Beta Forum

Technical stuff => Electrical => Topic started by: piacevole1300 on June 12, 2011, 12:30:56 PM



Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 12, 2011, 12:30:56 PM
Welcome to the forum!

Yes, the 1300's are very few and far between.  So it's good to see another on the road, especially as 2012 is the 40th anniversary of the Beta.

As for the problems you mentioned.  
There is a mixture adjustment on the carb but you'd have to confirm which carb is fitted before we can say for sure where it's located.  Is it weber or solex etc.

I'd get the car fully serviced and full of fresh premium fuel first before adjusting anything.

The indicators flashing fast is usually a bad earth, especially as the cars not been used regularly.  Are all the indicators flashing? The front earth points are located by each headlight. They are round and will have about 8 black wires attached.  Clean those connections!   Rear earth is behind the carpet on the rear panel on passenger side, again round with multiple wires. Start with the earths before replacing anything.

Keep us posted on how you get on.
 

Matt

Ah yeah, if the timing is good I may join the plan about the Europe tour as I have studies and don't know how she will be feeling next year!

She has the Weber 32 DMTR carb which to my confusion the Haynes manual does not cover, it has the 34 DMTR Which seems to be different; either that or I am thick! (probably the latter)

I will do a full service of the car myself with new sparks, filters and oil both in the gearbox and the engine. Since the car needs its Manx MOT I will have to bring fuel to it in Jerry cans :P

If there was a bad earth wouldn't that mean the rest of the front lights would go koo koo as they are on the same disk? well i'll give them all a good clean and put a bit of copper grease on each of the connections as I just had a look and it does look like someone has splashed a bit of rust proof paint on it!

Ok I have a bit of work ahead of me, thanks Matt  ;D


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 12, 2011, 12:36:23 PM
If all indicators are flashing and the relay is shot then you'll find the relay attached to the bulkhead by the steering column, get ready to contort yourself!!

Fingers crossed it's just bad earths.

All the indicators are flashing, all at the same speed which led me to believe the relay. Oh lord I am crossing both my fingers and toes it is not that, don't feel like playing Twister inside a car  ::)


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: MattNoVAT on June 12, 2011, 12:44:10 PM
Sadly it's twister time then!

Part of the fun is going to be finding another relay.

When you tried to save the other Beta did you get a chance to salvage any spares before it was weighed in?


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 12, 2011, 12:53:51 PM
Sadly it's twister time then!

Part of the fun is going to be finding another relay.

When you tried to save the other Beta did you get a chance to salvage any spares before it was weighed in?
Haha, I was never good at Twister  :-\

I know, this is going to be the hard part because most people enjoy having indicators in there Beta and I don't think anyone will be forgiving to give me one  :-[

I went to the scrap yard and inquired them about the Beta, I was only able to look but if I wanted to take anything I had to pay 50!!! they would not allow me to take the full car either  :'( All I could do was ninja the ashtrays and a couple of other things that wasn't glued down. I wasn't prepared to pay 50 for a relay  :-\ I walked away swearing like a trooper under my breath as I walked away from the car with only a few bits and bobs in my pocket.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: MattNoVAT on June 12, 2011, 01:10:32 PM
Post something up in the wanted section, you be amazed at what some of us have tucked away in our sheds/garages.

I could well have one but I'm 4000 miles from home away on business at the moment so can't look in my garage until after 18th June. :(


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 12, 2011, 01:33:28 PM
Post something up in the wanted section, you be amazed at what some of us have tucked away in our sheds/garages.

I could well have one but I'm 4000 miles from home away on business at the moment so can't look in my garage until after 18th June. :(
Haha, I hope I do get one then she is ready for her MOT it is so, so strict over here I mean you can be failed for a indicator not being orange enough it is that bad. thankfully its only once in its lifetime it has to go through.

Hopefully I will get a response to my plea!


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: MattNoVAT on June 13, 2011, 09:55:53 PM
It's the same on the mainland!  I have had the same experience with the indicator bulbs.

You should try MOT'ing a car in N.Ireland..... If you car is dirty underneath and the inspector cannot see condition of say ball joints, track rods etc etc ..... thats a FAIL !


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: JoeBeta on June 14, 2011, 10:49:22 AM
I had the same fast flashing indicators on  my coupe, (BUT the Hazard lights always worked OK)

Had the flasher unit off and clean several times, would be OK for a few days but would revert.

Mine was a bad connection in the column stalk switch, I just sprayed some (well lots) of electrical contact cleaner into the stalk mechanism and worked the switch.   

This has cured the problem so far.

cheers

Joe


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 12:32:13 PM
It's the same on the mainland!  I have had the same experience with the indicator bulbs.

You should try MOT'ing a car in N.Ireland..... If you car is dirty underneath and the inspector cannot see condition of say ball joints, track rods etc etc ..... thats a FAIL !
Bloody hell, do they have to take it every year? We're lucky we only have to take it once if you keep the Tax up and get an automatic pass if its under 6 years old.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 14, 2011, 12:35:41 PM
I had the same fast flashing indicators on  my coupe, (BUT the Hazard lights always worked OK)

Had the flasher unit off and clean several times, would be OK for a few days but would revert.

Mine was a bad connection in the column stalk switch, I just sprayed some (well lots) of electrical contact cleaner into the stalk mechanism and worked the switch.   

This has cured the problem so far.

cheers

Joe

Ah well that could be a cheap alternative and the best place to start before buying things. I mean it has sat for a long time in a garage. Thanks Joe!


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: cheeky monkey on June 19, 2011, 03:13:37 PM
Hi

leaving out the pale blue connector in the relay under the dash solved problem for me (so far) - means no handbrake warning light but thats ok.

Graham


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: hutch6610 on June 19, 2011, 03:43:45 PM
Hello piacevole1300.
If i may stick my big nose in?
Could you tell me what sort of indicator unit you have and what it controls exactly - i get the impression its the early type, possibly made by Italamec (measures 50mm x 33mm x 38mm approx) controls both HANDBRAKE warning light + Indicators?

There is a very simple fix IF its not too far gone if your symptoms are as follows;
Indicators will flash normally for a few seconds - and then they go ape?

Just post back if it is as there is no harm in having a fiddle with the old unit.

Hutch


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 20, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
Hello piacevole1300.
If i may stick my big nose in?
Could you tell me what sort of indicator unit you have and what it controls exactly - i get the impression its the early type, possibly made by Italamec (measures 50mm x 33mm x 38mm approx) controls both HANDBRAKE warning light + Indicators?

There is a very simple fix IF its not too far gone if your symptoms are as follows;
Indicators will flash normally for a few seconds - and then they go ape?

Just post back if it is as there is no harm in having a fiddle with the old unit.

Hutch
I am yet to delve into the indicator unit but tomorrow I shall venture forth and bring you the exact details of the unit but my best guess is that it does control the the handbrake warning light and indicators but with the make and sizes I'll get them tomorrow.

Yeah just a slow flash on the dials for 2 seconds then all hell breaks loose with the handbrake going nuts with the indicators following suit.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: cheeky monkey on June 20, 2011, 08:38:11 PM
Hello piacevole1300.
If i may stick my big nose in?
Could you tell me what sort of indicator unit you have and what it controls exactly - i get the impression its the early type, possibly made by Italamec (measures 50mm x 33mm x 38mm approx) controls both HANDBRAKE warning light + Indicators?

There is a very simple fix IF its not too far gone if your symptoms are as follows;
Indicators will flash normally for a few seconds - and then they go ape?

Just post back if it is as there is no harm in having a fiddle with the old unit.

Hutch


Hutch6610, just remembered that you'd suggested a soldering solution before for the italmec unit (bridging the reed switch) which of course i still havnt got round to doing
G


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: hutch6610 on June 21, 2011, 02:41:24 AM
Quote
Hutch6610, just remembered that you'd suggested a soldering solution before for the italmec unit (bridging the reed switch) which of course i still havnt got round to doing
G
Yup Graham that's the fix, makes no odds what make the flasher unit is so long as its the early type with five pins - just open her up (four screws) and bridge the reed switch (the glass thingy) you don't even have to solder it, just wrap some fuse wire to bridge and it should work.

Only mentioned Italamec as i have one next to my PC (i know ... sad git) and i am sure that there are a couple of different makes available - or should i say were available.

I used to have quite a few of these units but they usually all go ape eventually.

The fix/bodge has always worked for me in the past piacevole1300, hope it works for you.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 21, 2011, 12:47:35 PM
Quote
Hutch6610, just remembered that you'd suggested a soldering solution before for the italmec unit (bridging the reed switch) which of course i still havnt got round to doing
G
Yup Graham that's the fix, makes no odds what make the flasher unit is so long as its the early type with five pins - just open her up (four screws) and bridge the reed switch (the glass thingy) you don't even have to solder it, just wrap some fuse wire to bridge and it should work.

Only mentioned Italamec as i have one next to my PC (i know ... sad git) and i am sure that there are a couple of different makes available - or should i say were available.

I used to have quite a few of these units but they usually all go ape eventually.

The fix/bodge has always worked for me in the past piacevole1300, hope it works for you.
Hi Hutch I have opened it up and was wondering do I bridge from the top of the reed switch to the bottom because I can't see where to solder for the bottom. Thankyou!


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 21, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Ok scratch the last bit I've done it! And by the looks of things it's worked!! ;D I was going to do a photo step by step but I got up to the point of taking it apart and then I forgot to take more photos.  :-\ ::) Thanks alot Hutch, you have saved me a lot of trouble with that tip! Oh and also does anyone elses flash slower than the after video, that would be a great help thankyou!

Here are the before and after in video form:

Before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuAvHJTNDvI

After:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVc6BscDNKU


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: hutch6610 on June 22, 2011, 01:55:48 PM
Hmm, it still looks too fast to me, you sure its a before and after video?
At least i can see the lights going on and off, normally its a blur as if you have a bad earth.
It should be going on and off just like a modern car - your unit looks like its too far gone but it should be OK for an MOT.
You did put a piece of wire to bypass the reed switch ... right?


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: hutch6610 on June 22, 2011, 02:05:26 PM
OK, have watched it again and it is a little better - either that or its just wishful thinking.
But it should be slower in my opinion, when the flasher unit goes duff it sounds more like a very fast ticking clock and when its bypassed/bridged its a night and day transformation.
You checked all your bulbs are the right wattage?

Oh and what make was the unit by the way?


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 22, 2011, 06:07:16 PM
OK, have watched it again and it is a little better - either that or its just wishful thinking.
But it should be slower in my opinion, when the flasher unit goes duff it sounds more like a very fast ticking clock and when its bypassed/bridged its a night and day transformation.
You checked all your bulbs are the right wattage?

Oh and what make was the unit by the way?
Yeah its not as fast, its very noticible in person viewing the car but still it is much faster compared to the 4x4. Where do you bridge it from? I bridged it from the metal piece on one side to the top of the reed switch is that correct? Yeah all the bulbs are working and are the right wattage as I changed them following the manual's wattage.

The unit is Italmec.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 22, 2011, 07:01:14 PM
Unless you are a real purist, fit an electronic flasher relay and separate the brake warning circuit out from the hazards/indicators.

Cheers R


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 22, 2011, 07:14:19 PM
Unless you are a real purist, fit an electronic flasher relay and separate the brake warning circuit out from the hazards/indicators.

Cheers R
Is it hard to revert back?  :P Because I could be cheeky do that for now and revert back when and if I find another proper relay.  :P

Ok had to reread I get the basic principle, so take the wire off the brake warning light, so you would have only the Hazard and Indicator leads then put that into an electronic one? What type of flasher unit would it be? Thanks ;D


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 22, 2011, 09:00:41 PM
Ah, so you are a purist! Well, you can do without the brake warning light flasher for a while. Just get an electronic flasher from eBay or your local motor factor. Be careful with the connections as pin-outs vary. Electronic ones generally have a switched permanent/ignition live input from the hazard switch, an output back to the hazard switch and thence to the indicators, and finally an earth connection.

I would offer you mine but I'm certain my car had separate indicator and brake flashers. I have rewired my car for an interior fusebox (ex Uno Turbo).


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 22, 2011, 09:49:23 PM
Ok so instead of writing a book I thought I would post another video a bit more in-depth into the problem and I undid what I did because either I did it wrong or it doesn't work but anyway if this sheds any light on the problem before I get an electric indicator relay :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wux5Nu7O-jE


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 22, 2011, 09:54:57 PM
Ah, so you are a purist! Well, you can do without the brake warning light flasher for a while. Just get an electronic flasher from eBay or your local motor factor. Be careful with the connections as pin-outs vary. Electronic ones generally have a switched permanent/ignition live input from the hazard switch, an output back to the hazard switch and thence to the indicators, and finally an earth connection.

I would offer you mine but I'm certain my car had separate indicator and brake flashers. I have rewired my car for an interior fusebox (ex Uno Turbo).
Well I do love cars the way the manufacturer intended :P So the right one will bolt straight on minus the Handbrake warning light?

Ah thank you anyway! ;D


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 22, 2011, 10:33:02 PM
The hazards and the handbrake flash rates on their own look correct, but everything else looks wrong. It may be that you have a poor connection in the supply side, so that not enough current is drawn to give the correct flash rate. Generally, the smaller the current the faster it should flash. This is why the handbrake flashes fast as it's only a small wattage bulb. Similarly, when a bulb blows in an otherwise healthy flasher system, it flashes faster - this serves to warn you that a bulb has gone. I will have to study the wiring diagram to see how the combined flasher relay is supposed to work.

I have all respect for those who like to keep a car absolutely factory original. For me, I've always been a tinkerer since I was little (clocks were my favourite victims, much to my parents' annoyance!), so I can't help making changes to my cars. Unfortunately, like the clocks that never worked again, my projects generally never finish.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 22, 2011, 10:58:24 PM
The hazards and the handbrake flash rates on their own look correct, but everything else looks wrong. It may be that you have a poor connection in the supply side, so that not enough current is drawn to give the correct flash rate. Generally, the smaller the current the faster it should flash. This is why the handbrake flashes fast as it's only a small wattage bulb. Similarly, when a bulb blows in an otherwise healthy flasher system, it flashes faster - this serves to warn you that a bulb has gone. I will have to study the wiring diagram to see how the combined flasher relay is supposed to work.

I have all respect for those who like to keep a car absolutely factory original. For me, I've always been a tinkerer since I was little (clocks were my favourite victims, much to my parents' annoyance!), so I can't help making changes to my cars. Unfortunately, like the clocks that never worked again, my projects generally never finish.
Ah so indicators and Hazards are fine but I don't get why if there all on the same connection to the relay why the indicators behave oddly and none of the bulbs are out of sync from one another or not as bright. Ok I have one too which came with the manual but its Chinese for beginners to me.  :-\

Haha, I find things fun to take apart but putting them back together is the challenge.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 23, 2011, 12:12:44 AM
I can't say what's going on, I'll try and figure it out and get back to you.

Cheers R


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 12:38:14 AM
I can't say what's going on, I'll try and figure it out and get back to you.

Cheers R
Do you think getting a little bit bigger wattage bulbs might help just to see if that cures the problem? Because if you think about it its using all the current on hazards because all the lights are on meaning nice and slow but if the bulbs I threw in maybe was too small it could make them go crazy? I don't know I am only brain storming... er, mean mind mapping  ::)


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 23, 2011, 03:09:19 PM
I don't think it's worth trying to get higher wattage bulbs, even if they are available. That's treating the symptom but not the cause!

It seems the Haynes BoL doesn't show this combined flasher relay arrangement. However, I don't see why you can't use any standard hazard/indicator relay. All you need to do is connect the handbrake warning light supply to the same pin that supplies the hazard switch i.e. the "L" terminal on the relay. This would give you a (rapid) flashing handbrake warning light when the handbrake is on with ignition on. When you operate the hazards or indicators in normal use, with the handbrake released, everything would be normal. When you operate the hazards or indicators with the handbrake on, its warning light would flash in time with the indicators and their warning light(s). This is ok, as it is still telling you that the handbrake is on.

Come to think of it, this appears to be the way yours is operating now, so maybe that is how the OEM relay is wired.

The strange flashing rate is due to a faulty relay or a poor connection in the supply side I would guess.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 23, 2011, 03:22:40 PM
Further to my last ramble: The indicators operate from an ignition switched supply, which is also what the voltmeter measures. The hazards operate from a permanent live supply, so they won't affect the voltmeter. What your symptoms tell me is that there is a poor connection in the ignition supply upstream of the voltmeter and indicator switch.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 03:31:16 PM
Further to my last ramble: The indicators operate from an ignition switched supply, which is also what the voltmeter measures. The hazards operate from a permanent live supply, so they won't affect the voltmeter. What your symptoms tell me is that there is a poor connection in the ignition supply upstream of the voltmeter and indicator switch.
I am so confused  :P where and what would I look for to find a bad connection. I am not too good on electrical stuff!

Oh yeah I was looking in the boot at the lights removed the carpet and noticed that on the drivers side there was one loose wire that went nowhere and 4 earths connected to the body then looked on the passenger side there was 3 loose wires going nowhere and also on that side there was only one earth, could this be something that could affect it? I thought it was highly odd.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 23, 2011, 04:09:42 PM
You've got a problem, every time I come on here I see you!

I'm afraid you might need to learn up on electrics, or take it to an electrician (ouch). Have you got a multimeter?


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 04:17:35 PM
You've got a problem, every time I come on here I see you!

I'm afraid you might need to learn up on electrics, or take it to an electrician (ouch). Have you got a multimeter?
Haha, too true. Well I looked at wiring diagram and yes its supposed to have 4 earths on one side and 1 on the other but those wires come out of the blue! Also looking at the front under the steering column apart from finding two recepts for petrol in 1986 and an old cassette tape there is a quite a few loose wires not going anywhere and also a seven outlet junction box with nothing connected  :-\ Getting it to an electrician will be the hard part as its not MOT'd. Yep I've got a multimeter.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 04:35:21 PM
Oh and just noticed that when I turn the key with the handbrake off no hazards or indicators it makes one click and never does it again. Strange... This car certainly needs an auto electrician I think.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: thecolonel on June 23, 2011, 04:41:58 PM
That would suggets that the handbrake is acting as earth for the relay, check the earth blocks near the haz relay
rapid indicators would also suggest faulty earth.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 23, 2011, 04:48:40 PM
Ok, if you have a wiring diagram and a multimeter you are sorted! With the indicators operating, check the voltage at each connector, working upstream from the flasher relay back to the ignition switch. Test both sides of each connector. When you come to a connector that doesn't show that obvious voltage flick on its upstream side, there's the offender.

A faulty earth wouldn't give the flicking voltmeter symptom. This indicates the voltage is being dropped somewhere upstream, i.e. in the wiring from battery -> ignition switch -> fuse(s) -> hazard switch -> flasher relay.

The extra wires in the back sound like someone's tried to bodge around a wiring fault, or you've had a towbar fitted at some time. Is the 7 pole connector a round black one? They are usually the connections between the front and rear looms. There are similar ones under the dash, one at each side.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 04:52:42 PM
That would suggets that the handbrake is acting as earth for the relay, check the earth blocks near the haz relay
rapid indicators would also suggest faulty earth.
Ok but I can't see any earthing points under where the relay is  :-\


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 04:57:57 PM
Ok, if you have a wiring diagram and a multimeter you are sorted! With the indicators operating, check the voltage at each connector, working upstream from the flasher relay back to the ignition switch. Test both sides of each connector. When you come to a connector that doesn't show that obvious voltage flick on its upstream side, there's the offender.

A faulty earth wouldn't give the flicking voltmeter symptom. This indicates the voltage is being dropped somewhere upstream, i.e. in the wiring from battery -> ignition switch -> fuse(s) -> hazard switch -> flasher relay.

The extra wires in the back sound like someone's tried to bodge around a wiring fault, or you've had a towbar fitted at some time. Is the 7 pole connector a round black one? They are usually the connections between the front and rear looms. There are similar ones under the dash, one at each side.
Ah ok, so start at the relay work my up, I am starting to understand this diagram but parts just confuse the hell out of me like which way the current is flowing! :P


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 05:34:44 PM
Ok everything looked fine up until a point where the indicator relay connected to this relay:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-23171904.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-23172018.jpg)
It was searing hot and I mean it really, really hurt when I touched it; it was that hot. I have no idea how it hasn't melted but the top fastener seems to of deformed. Could this mean too many amps being fed? And if so why?  :-\ This just gets worse and worse!


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 05:59:06 PM
Ok now my bodging senses are tingling, I had a quick scan over the drawing and there should be no relay where this is put in I took a photo of what mine looks like before it goes onto the main junction and its very different from the wiring diagram:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-23174804.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-23174826.jpg)
Could this indeed be my problem or am I looking at an older diagram and the Beta was updated? Very strange to say the least...


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 07:55:12 PM
Ok I took it out rewired it just to go straight from the main circuit to the flasher unit without the relay in amongst it like so:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-23194301.jpg)
And guess what?
It didn't work, I don't mean it 'didn't work,didn't work' but nothing changed indicators still going fast, handbrake normal and the same hazard speed.

So even though I feel a sense of proud the most easiest rewiring worked for me first time, that wasn't my problem and only raises more questions why the relay was there when it was only trying to set my car on fire.  :-\

So there is nothing with the wiring under the foot well does this mean taking the Dash off?!  :o


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: hutch6610 on June 23, 2011, 08:41:49 PM
This has come along way since the other day!
I was wondering why you had removed the fog lamp relay from under the bonnet .. until i looked a little closer and you actually have it attached to a little piece of wiring harness.
Can't say i remember seeing anything like that - a relay to power up the indicator switch, its pointless unless you (i know you didn't fit it) are intending to supplement some extra juice so to speak to make up for any power drop.

The manual/diagram you are using is not the older car diagram as found in the Haynes manual, incidentally i have used the older wiring diagram to sort out later Betas as the wiring is very similar.
Flasher units on older cars are the old three pin bimetallic strip type however.

My wiring diagram is pretty close to the the photo you provide but the plug numbers are different (example 73 is 46 in the Haynes) so you probably have the right one.

Aside from that i think you have probably found a cause for the strange behaviour of your indicators - believe me the "reed trick" does work and it made very little difference to your car.
I would put the wiring back the way Lancia had intended, put everything back so it matches your wiring diagram - minus the relay because it should not be there and the heat from it is probably robbing the flasher unit of the correct resistance to do its job.

UPDATE ..... you have already done it while i was typing this and checking with the manual ........ Well done!

One question for you (hope you don't sign out) IS THE REED SWITCH STILL BYPASSED?
I read earlier that you had either removed it or was it the bridge you have removed?
If you have removed the bridge - try it again just to make sure!

No you don't have to remove the dash as the problem is not under there.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 08:57:33 PM
This has come along way since the other day!
I was wondering why you had removed the fog lamp relay from under the bonnet .. until i looked a little closer and you actually have it attached to a little piece of wiring harness.
Can't say i remember seeing anything like that - a relay to power up the indicator switch, its pointless unless you (i know you didn't fit it) are intending to supplement some extra juice so to speak to make up for any power drop.

The manual/diagram you are using is not the older car diagram as found in the Haynes manual, incidentally i have used the older wiring diagram to sort out later Betas as the wiring is very similar.
Flasher units on older cars are the old three pin bimetallic strip type however.

My wiring diagram is pretty close to the the photo you provide but the plug numbers are different (example 73 is 46 in the Haynes) so you probably have the right one.

Aside from that i think you have probably found a cause for the strange behaviour of your indicators - believe me the "reed trick" does work and it made very little difference to your car.
I would put the wiring back the way Lancia had intended, put everything back so it matches your wiring diagram - minus the relay because it should not be there and the heat from it is probably robbing the flasher unit of the correct resistance to do its job.

UPDATE ..... you have already done it while i was typing this and checking with the manual ........ Well done!

One question for you (hope you don't sign out) IS THE REED SWITCH STILL BYPASSED?
I read earlier that you had either removed it or was it the bridge you have removed?
If you have removed the bridge - try it again just to make sure!

No you don't have to remove the dash as the problem is not under there.

Hi hutch sorry I was still melding outside when I got to the computer :/ It was quite odd got to say the least but I have found something that may hold the key to the mystery!

When I turn the headlights on now EVERYTHING stops indicators don't work, hazards don't work and the handbrake warning light freezes until you turn off the lights, so this sounds very much like a short somewhere. Time to look at this diagram to see where they come into contact...

Yeah the switch is not bypassed anymore because it didn't seem to do anything so that didn't seem like my fault if it comes to the worst I will try it again :D

Ok now I can switch the lights on with indicators working... This is making my head hurt.  :-\


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 23, 2011, 09:55:43 PM
I disagree with Hutch - start removing bits from the car until it looks like this:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/rachaeljf/Lancia/DSC01336.jpg)
Then get back to us.

Your latest symptom is definitely a poor connection on the supply side. What happens is the current drawn by the headlamps pulls the voltage down so much that the flasher doesn't have enough current to start flashing. The bad connection could be anywhere right up to the battery. In X1/9 circles, there is a popular mod, known as the "brown wire mod", which supplements the inadequate factory supply wire with a second wire. X1/9s and I think many other Fiats are plagued by lack of robustness in the wiring. Some years ago I had a brown underwear moment in my exxy when I lost all my lights while travelling along the unlit A421 at a rate of knots. This was because Fiat saved a few Lire by not providing a relay for the dipped beam. The light switch contacts get dirty with age, a resistance builds up, heat builds up, switch melts....

Unfortunately you will get these problems as the car ages. When you get a fault like yours, the methodical way is to test for excessive voltage drops in the offending circuit, as I described before.

Is there any way you can scan and post up your wiring diagram?


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 23, 2011, 11:21:26 PM
Your latest symptom is definitely a poor connection on the supply side. What happens is the current drawn by the headlamps pulls the voltage down so much that the flasher doesn't have enough current to start flashing. The bad connection could be anywhere right up to the battery. In X1/9 circles, there is a popular mod, known as the "brown wire mod", which supplements the inadequate factory supply wire with a second wire. X1/9s and I think many other Fiats are plagued by lack of robustness in the wiring. Some years ago I had a brown underwear moment in my exxy when I lost all my lights while travelling along the unlit A421 at a rate of knots. This was because Fiat saved a few Lire by not providing a relay for the dipped beam. The light switch contacts get dirty with age, a resistance builds up, heat builds up, switch melts....

Unfortunately you will get these problems as the car ages. When you get a fault like yours, the methodical way is to test for excessive voltage drops in the offending circuit, as I described before.

Is there any way you can scan and post up your wiring diagram?
Right well shall I start from the battery work my way along the diagram till I end up to the fault? The only problem is some junctions are going to be hidden so would I have to rip stuff out?  :-\ Is there any tutorials to doing this because all I can find is about American cars.

I did find before that it was quite erratic going from 11.12 volts to 12.13 volts each time it clicked but that must be the on/off of the indicators because they are not constantly on.

I am not at home right now but tomorrow when I get home i'll put it the Diagram for the Spider LHD&RHD also the Coupe LHD&RHD onto the forum :)


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 23, 2011, 11:41:54 PM
You can test the bits you can get to as a first pass. If the fault turns out to be somewhere inaccessible then you will have to delve into it I'm afraid. You should not get more than 0.1 or 0.2 V drop across any connector or run of cable. If you do, you have a dirty connection or a corroded wire.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 24, 2011, 12:55:04 PM
You can test the bits you can get to as a first pass. If the fault turns out to be somewhere inaccessible then you will have to delve into it I'm afraid. You should not get more than 0.1 or 0.2 V drop across any connector or run of cable. If you do, you have a dirty connection or a corroded wire.
Something is telling me its the Shunt Block (Six ways) which is number 59 on the wiring diagram I wonder where it is to find it, I'll see if Haynes book will tell me (probably not)

Do you think I am barking up the wrong tree? Because that looks like the only place the voltimeter meets the indicators.


Title: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 24, 2011, 03:52:28 PM
Ok upon my search with a gut feeling I found the shunt block but I noticed something very intruging which was not part of the Wiring Diagram (certainly hope not or those pesky Italians have ways with electronics) I found on the back of the block a little holder with a light in it and on the back of the holder a black lead that without ripping the dash to pieces goes to an unknown place, the bulb does not work and is a little 12v 3w clip one. So now is this my problem? If it is how do I resolve this issue? Thanks!

Maybe, just maybe we are finding a conclusion to this whole pesky indicator problem!

Notice the holder with the wire out the back snaking up into the dash:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-24152834.jpg)

The actual bulb which to me deffently seems like it shouldn't be there!:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-24152846.jpg)


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 24, 2011, 08:59:29 PM
That looks like a glove box light. I believe the yellow wire means it is connected to the side lights. Very mysterious!


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 24, 2011, 09:03:39 PM
That looks like a glove box light. I believe the yellow wire means it is connected to the side lights. Very mysterious!
Thats what I thought, I was like 'Oh hello glovebox light why are you here?' opened the glovebox with the lights on and hey presto the glovebox light worked! Then confusion set in. So its not the glovebox light.  ???


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 24, 2011, 09:54:15 PM
That looks like a glove box light. I believe the yellow wire means it is connected to the side lights. Very mysterious!
I think I know the problem  :-\ The left hand side tail light bulb is blown. Because they are on the same board as the indicators it seems to be sending them loopy so I'll replace that. Be amazing if it is that.

But you were right turned the sidelights on and the bulb lit up! But this just opens up a whole new can of worms. And this blew my mind.

It is not needed.

I took it out and EVERYTHING works: side lights, indicators, dipped beam, full beam. So why, like the relay for the flasher unit, was it there? At the moment I am just going to say that someone was practicing there hand at electronics.. on a car?


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 25, 2011, 12:09:54 AM
This is all part of the fun of working on Italian cars!

Do all the switches, clock and cig lighter light up with the side lights?

There should be no interaction between the indicators and side lights, unless there is a bad earth at the lamp holder.


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 25, 2011, 12:16:43 AM
This is all part of the fun of working on Italian cars!

Do all the switches, clock and cig lighter light up with the side lights?

There should be no interaction between the indicators and side lights, unless there is a bad earth at the lamp holder.
Heater switches light up, radio lights up, instrument panel lights up and can dim to required also the clock although the cig lighter doesn't work with or without the hidden bulb. Anything else that should work?

Thats what I thought and even with or without the bulb the indicators still goes at the rate of knots.


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: rachaeljf on June 25, 2011, 12:32:28 AM
Wow, are you ever off line??! ;D

Well, no idea what the extra light is for, unless it's a footwell light like you get in cars these days. Is your engine bay light present and working?


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 25, 2011, 12:44:20 AM
Wow, are you ever off line??! ;D

Well, no idea what the extra light is for, unless it's a footwell light like you get in cars these days. Is your engine bay light present and working?

I have been online for 1 days, 8 hours and 55 minutes  ;) HAHA! Its present but not working same with the boot light. Just certain lights round the car not working I have also noticed the brake light bulbs are blown too! The only problem with that theory is it was in a holder hidden away :/ Not going to keep it as one because its very bright and quite annoying if I was driving :P


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: lanciamad on June 25, 2011, 11:09:35 AM
Ok upon my search with a gut feeling I found the shunt block but I noticed something very intruging which was not part of the Wiring Diagram (certainly hope not or those pesky Italians have ways with electronics) I found on the back of the block a little holder with a light in it and on the back of the holder a black lead that without ripping the dash to pieces goes to an unknown place, the bulb does not work and is a little 12v 3w clip one. So now is this my problem? If it is how do I resolve this issue? Thanks!

Maybe, just maybe we are finding a conclusion to this whole pesky indicator problem!

Notice the holder with the wire out the back snaking up into the dash:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-24152834.jpg)

The actual bulb which to me deffently seems like it shouldn't be there!:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff450/Landscape_Photography/2011-06-24152846.jpg)
Haven't been on here for a while, lots to catch up on!
I think your find that bulb is to illuminate the area around the fan switch and levers. I'll get a pic of it on mine or my dads HPE tonight if I remember just to show. The wiring should be connected to the sidelights as this illuminates as soon as the sidelights are turned on.
Marcus.


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: hutch6610 on June 25, 2011, 09:50:51 PM
Just to confirm Marcus is right about the bulb in your photo.
The Bulb is supposed to be there - its meant to actually have a bulb with a lens on the tip to focus the light down not wires but fibre optic cables, two i think.
Purpose is to light up your rocker switches for demister and hazard lights (rear wash as well if you have an HPE)
The heater panel has two small bulbs to light up the red/green part from the rear.   

Have you reached the rachaeljf "Club Hammer" stage yet? >:( >:( >:( cunningly placed close at hand near the steering wheel.


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: Neil-yaj396 on June 26, 2011, 08:33:37 AM
I was thinking that the rogue bulb must be dash related. The fibre optics only came in with the facelift I think. I take it that this car has the brown dash like my 1300?


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: lanciamad on June 26, 2011, 10:04:27 PM
Got there in the end, sorry about the poor pics but an example of the bulb in action...
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q152/lanciamad_album/IMG_0512.jpg)

(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q152/lanciamad_album/IMG_0513.jpg)
Not quite dark enough yet to see it in full flow but you get the idea, hopefully. :)


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 27, 2011, 10:19:59 AM
Haven't been on here for a while, lots to catch up on!
I think your find that bulb is to illuminate the area around the fan switch and levers. I'll get a pic of it on mine or my dads HPE tonight if I remember just to show. The wiring should be connected to the sidelights as this illuminates as soon as the sidelights are turned on.
Marcus.
Ah is that what its for? It seemed so out of place and the bolts that held it on seemed so much newer than it should be. That is correct it is infact connected to the side lights, ok well I will keep that in it original position. Thankyou!


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 27, 2011, 10:22:59 AM
Just to confirm Marcus is right about the bulb in your photo.
The Bulb is supposed to be there - its meant to actually have a bulb with a lens on the tip to focus the light down not wires but fibre optic cables, two i think.
Purpose is to light up your rocker switches for demister and hazard lights (rear wash as well if you have an HPE)
The heater panel has two small bulbs to light up the red/green part from the rear.   

Have you reached the rachaeljf "Club Hammer" stage yet? >:( >:( >:( cunningly placed close at hand near the steering wheel.
Yep just had a look and it does have the optic cable down the end now just need darkness to test its going to the right place :P

I have been very, very close. Going round in circles is very stressful on a man and the Club Hammer is O'-So-Tempting  ;D


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 27, 2011, 10:25:31 AM
I was thinking that the rogue bulb must be dash related. The fibre optics only came in with the facelift I think. I take it that this car has the brown dash like my 1300?
interestingly not, my car has a black dash and is from the 1980's were the brown dash's standard for the facelift models?


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 27, 2011, 10:28:16 AM
Got there in the end, sorry about the poor pics but an example of the bulb in action...
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q152/lanciamad_album/IMG_0512.jpg)

(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q152/lanciamad_album/IMG_0513.jpg)
Not quite dark enough yet to see it in full flow but you get the idea, hopefully. :)
Ah, now that is interesting, i'll plug it all in wait till its dark and give it a test. Whats bothering me is why have those pesky Italian's gone to the trouble of optics and hiding bulbs instead of a bulb in the dash and removable switch cover? Seems very strange and intriguing at the same time.   :P


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: HFStuart on June 27, 2011, 11:07:38 AM
Same arrangement was used in the delta. Do you remember the Top Gear on Lancia. "we'll operate the windows witn magic. It won't work but we'll do it anyway" this is a perfect example!

Goes to show that the old spirit on Lancia was still there in the early eighties !


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 27, 2011, 03:39:57 PM
Same arrangement was used in the delta. Do you remember the Top Gear on Lancia. "we'll operate the windows witn magic. It won't work but we'll do it anyway" this is a perfect example!

Goes to show that the old spirit on Lancia was still there in the early eighties !
Fiat never removed anything from Lancia. Lancia always had some crazy ways of thinking, even when Fiat took over.


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 28, 2011, 02:08:00 AM
Ok now its nighttime I turned on the lights with that crazy bulb plugged in and it made my heart sing. Even though someone has obviously been annoyed by the light inside the switches and has cut that off but I noticed the tiny winy detail of little lights above the Hazard and Rear Window Heater switches giving it a warmly glow instead of shoving a light inside the switch making it glow a pukey green. It was such small touch that I didn't notice that just makes the interior appearance that much more beautiful.

Ok well I have noticed the Brake Lights do not work when the ignition is on (not engine) I replaced the bulbs but they still do not work. Could this indeed be my problem?  :-\


Title: Re: Indicators Fast Flashing issue
Post by: piacevole1300 on June 30, 2011, 11:19:03 AM
Ok I swear this is an earth issue because I found this problem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHSwGdoY6Kk

Now for some reason when I indicate left its better voltage than the right and hazards, so that's why I was really confused at first :P